Amiga.org and Bias

[Kronos]

So now we are down to Godwin's law ?

Modding a comment down just doesn't work with xoops (AFAIK), and it is also no
warranty to stop the thread going OT or down the gutter.

From the comments I have seen before they werte deleted here I can only tell
you that each and everyone deserved it as they added nothing to the ongoing
discussions (actually there were quite a few post more which should have also
gone if it were my descicion), and yes that affected post from both sides.

[pixie]

SirLancelotDuLac:
> This is why I believe censorship is not necessarily a bad thing, sometimes
> it takes a moderator to censor things so they won't infringe on other peoples
> rights."

And my right to see the message!? ;-)


Bhoggett:
> I did see HMetal's posts that were moderated, though not whever it was
> that may have got him banned. Certainly the posts that were edited were
> both abusive and personal, and were rightly censored IMHO."

But this can't be a private club where only a few get to see what is written, besides, as SirLancelotDuLac well putted*, what does right really means!?

Let's the people decide... Seehund, can you help me on this!? :-D

*" Wouldn't that be more of a matter of perspective? As who each person see/experience an event and interpets its meaning/significance to  themselves. Thus forming an opinion on the relivant related topics."

[pixie]

@Kronos:

> Modding a comment down just doesn't work with xoops (AFAIK).

I also thought that so, I hope it will change soon...

> And it is also no warranty to stop the thread going OT or down the gutter.

Edited: World just isn't a perfect world you know, you can have the best topic, peoples conform to it and still have the worst discussion because of lacks of arguments and such, and many times discussions do *have* to be OT, sometimes issues are bring, and while OT they are related to some of the content of a given message, extending it further, and while they're OT they're still On...

[bhoggett]

@pixie

Mike Bouma did not moderate comments down on AW.net, because that runs Xoops too and there is no option to moderate down.

Unless what you mean by "moderate down" is make one last scathing comment and then lock the thread, preventing the right of reply. Personally, I'd rather keep an interesting thread open and edit the offensive posts than allow abusers the ability to bring interesting debates to a premature end.

Frankly, if you want a completely anarchic environment where you can read anything - including the abuse - there's always the bunny. Next comes ANN, where people feel free to abuse others under the cloak of anonymity when they would never dare say the same thing under their own names. And then we have this place, which is IMHO the most civilised of the "open" forums.

Anarchy is fine in small doses, but I wouldn't want to see it everywhere, and I do happen to think that comparing my views with Hitler's is going a bit far.

[SirLancelotDuLac]

Mike Bouma did not moderate comments down on AW.net, because that runs Xoops too and there is no option to moderate down.

I assume Pixie is talking about the gentlemen who made a huge fuss recently on Mike moderating down comments on OSNews, which DOES allow comments being moderated down.  However, I only remember reading that thread on the Bunny and not on ANN.

Unless what you mean by "moderate down" is make one last scathing comment and then lock the thread, preventing the right of reply. Personally, I'd rather keep an interesting thread open and edit the offensive posts than allow abusers the ability to bring interesting debates to a premature end.

That is a matter of opinion and your tone is completely uncalled for on a "civilised" forum and deserves moderation.  The fact that you think Mike's comments on Amigaworld is "scathing" is your own opinion not shared by all.  As I said many times, just because it's your opinion, it does NOT make it right.

Frankly, if you want a completely anarchic environment where you can read anything - including the abuse - there's always the bunny. Next comes ANN, where people feel free to abuse others under the cloak of anonymity when they would never dare say the same thing under their own names. And then we have this place, which is IMHO the most civilised of the "open" forums.

Until people make uncivilised comments like yours above.  It works both ways, you can't be uncivilized to someone and expect them to be civilized back.  Even if you don't think Mike deserves being civil to, you could remain civilized out of respect for Amiga.org and keeping it a civil place.  If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Anarchy is fine in small doses, but I wouldn't want to see it everywhere, and I do happen to think that comparing my views with Hitler's is going a bit far.

I agree, that comparison of your views with Hitler was going a bit far, as was your rude comment directed at Mike Buoma.

[pixie]

> Mike Bouma did not moderate comments down on AW.net, because that
> runs Xoops too and there is no option to moderate down.

So... I Couldn't be talking about MBouma moderation on AW now, now could I !? I was talking, as said by SirLancelotDuLac by his moderation on OSNews

> Unless what you mean by "moderate down" is make one last scathing
> comment and then lock the thread, preventing the right of reply.

Which I haven't...

> Personally, I'd rather keep an interesting thread open and edit the offensive
> posts than allow abusers the ability to bring interesting debates to a
> premature end.

Here I would agree if it was the case, but it isn't, but edited is diferent from deletion, it could be like putting automatically I guess &$%$$# on some sweard words 'cause there's always ppl bitchin about it, but this already seem to happen to A M I G A W O R L D . N E T which is no swear world, at least not in any dictionary...

> Frankly, if you want a completely anarchic environment where you can
> read anything - including the abuse - there's always the bunny. Next comes
> ANN, where people feel free to abuse others under the cloak of
> anonymity when they would never dare say the same thing under their own
> names. And then we have this place, which is IMHO the most civilised of
> the "open" forums.

Only that this way it wouldn't, people would always brag about it, but at least they could say: hey, was I trolling because I said x, y or z? Beside, here you are not logging anonimously so...

> Anarchy is fine in small doses, but I wouldn't want to see it everywhere,
> and I do happen to think that comparing my views with Hitler's is going a
> bit far.

I also do think that *you* comparing your view with hitler was being a bit far, what I expressed and even if I'm not an native english user I think I pointed out well to the sentence where you says:

> I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to see politically
> motivated censorship here, although I do think it is necessary to
> enforce a certain level of civility.

Censorship is censorship wether it is political or otherwise as long as it's... censorship, but of course I wasn't calling you hitler, that never crossed my mind, but in the end I guess that you understand my analogy rather well, besides there was a ;-) in the end...

Let me start a campain about adding moderation down option on xoops instead... Seehund, where are you!!!! :-D

[pixie]

I assume Pixie is talking about the gentlemen who made a huge fuss recently on Mike moderating down comments on OSNews, which DOES allow comments being moderated down. However, I only remember reading that thread on the Bunny and not on ANN.

Yes, unfortunatly I was mistaken

[Vincent]

Poster: bhoggett Date: 2003/8/22 18:43:53
@Vincent

I should point out that I have no problem whatsoever with Targhan's moderation.

I never actually thought in that way.  I was just making general comments of the way I've seen things.  It didn't actually register that you mentioned Targhan in your post until I read your post after mine.

@Targhan

No probs :-D

[DaveP]

@Bill

One short example of "bias", although in this case I suspect it was more in the nature of threading but here we go.

Wayne wrote an innaccurate slam of AOS4 development and the impact of a Dongle on a business plan in a very pro Genesi/MorphOS posting of his.

I answered pointing out the flaws and asking him exactly what he was referring to.

This went back and forth with Wayne admitting he was confusing the DE license with AOS4 but he would not explain how the dongle impacted the business scenario only to say that it some nebulous way it did. Nice puff piece and slam piece.

It went back and forth again only for Wayne to call me an Amiga Inc fanboy.

I posted a rebuttal of this and a call to complete the debate of the issue he was having trouble with.

Next thing I know a load of my posts were deleted.

Then I reposted the last ( and largest one of them ).

Then ALL our posts on the subject, including Waynes, were dropped.

Now heres the problem. There are a number of ways to interpret this:

1. Someone was moderating in Waynes favour, if he got an awkward question that embarrased him, they would delete it. Ian Shurmer has also seen this happen to him btw.

2. Wayne was moderating comments he couldn't reply to.

3. Someone else thought Wayne had brought it on himself, had dragged the thread off topic and moderated the whole lot.

Id like to believe (3) but considering there was a full 6 or so hours of selectively deleting my responses and me reposting what I had saved ( I only saved them after I noticed them "going missing" ).

So, you could interpret it as Amiga.org moderation collectively moderating in favour of the pro Genesi and flawed ( in this instance ) anti Triachy statements of its webmaster.

Wheres the evidence? I have some saved versions of the thread and another website thread commenting on it but heres the thing - if you are able to remove Trotsky from the picture, what evidence Trotsky was there?

I also don't know how you can say ( in the other place ) that Wayne stepped down before accepting a post at Genesi. This is not in the public domain, all that I see is that he merely stepped down before starting his role officially.

Finally, I feel that you are being extremely hard on Mikey_C on this site and more than a little ruder than I have ever seen you before, can we have a cessation of hostilities if not open reconciliation?

Sure we both know what has gone on in the past wrt to a few issues but it would be nice if we could all move the debate on from the past and on to doing something productive for the product set competing in this marketplace lest they both become stillborn.

So please, don't tell me that the moderation here was unbiased, it was, not necessarily "pro Genesi" but certainly "pro lets remove stuff that embarrasses moderators".

There are many strong cases of poor corporate behaviour by Genesi and Amiga Inc, and people have many reasons to "despise" ( although why get so emotionally involved ) either. Doesn't make for a clear dividing line between right and wrong though and is certainly no reason for this continuous personality assassinaion we see against anyone who is part of Amiga Inc, affiliated with or merely just a user who is waiting for one of their products.

Not so long ago I wanted to delete my account after a serious falling out with a moderator ( over moderating decisions ) and we took it offline and with the help of Kees have come to a level of understanding. As far as I am concerned, Amiga.org is on some kind of "probation" ( although that sounds more pompous than I really mean ) and if Kees can make it work, then Ill stick around, if not Ill just stick to AmigaWorld.net for discussing Amigas and cool stuff on the A1 and ANN for crossing swords and keeping in contact with the other main part of the community.

Just because a lot of "us" are fed up with the same old record going round does not make BAFs the minority or mean that we do not have anything to talk about. If you were having a conversation with someone about what you like about your car and someone else kept interrupting with juvenile insults, comparisons with another car and insults directed at the CEO of the car company you and your friends would first ask them to politely desist, second maybe argue and finally if the irritating tick doesn't quit it move on elsewhere so you can actually have that conversation.

Unfortunately people see Forums as a place where semi-private conversations cannot be held ( that is a conversation amongst like minded people ) and that every conversation has the right to be bombed with self indulgent crap and irreleventia in the nature of "freedom of speech". Without the ability to put various people on /ignore and spread ignore lists it was only a matter of time before those that want to talk Amigas, do so on AmigaWorld.net where such conversation disruption is moderated strongly.

For the price of a bit less freedom you get many more conversations actually complete. And guess what? The need to repeat the same old cr*p is much less into the bargain!

Dave.

[bhoggett]

@DaveP

Id like to believe (3) but considering there was a full 6 or so hours of selectively deleting my responses and me reposting what I had saved ( I only saved them after I noticed them "going missing" ).

I believe you Dave, but without hearing from the other side (the moderators) I'll refrain from comment. IMHO messages should not be removed entirely but edited instead, even if that means removing the entire content. An explanation would also be nice for any edit, but the drawback is that if people can't restrain themselves you will end up with massive threads of edited messages.

I also don't know how you can say ( in the other place ) that Wayne stepped down before accepting a post at Genesi. This is not in the public domain, all that I see is that he merely stepped down before starting his role officially.

You're splitting hairs Dave, but yes, I meant that he stepped down before taking up his position officially.  There are moderators elsewhere who "work for" certain companies without being officially employed by them.

Finally, I feel that you are being extremely hard on Mikey_C on this site and more than a little ruder than I have ever seen you before, can we have a cessation of hostilities if not open reconciliation?

The issue is tabled as far as I'm concerned. Nevertheless, I will continue to speak my mind and comment on issues or people's behaviour if I feel the need for it, irrespective of who they are. For me at least it is unacceptable to sacrifice truth for the sake of loyalty and if this makes me sound like a hypocrite, so be it.

[DaveP]

@Bill

OK, splitting hairs it may be but I just wanted to correct the impression.

Finally wrt Mikey, fair enough, I guess the suggestion is that in the past I have sacrificed truth for loyalty and am the hypocrite.  Time will tell if I made the right decision or not.

( and no for the rest of you out there, that is not what you think - its between Bill and I ).

Dave.

[bhoggett]

@DaveP

Finally wrt Mikey, fair enough, I guess the suggestion is that in the past I have sacrificed truth for loyalty and am the hypocrite. Time will tell if I made the right decision or not.

I'm not referring to you Dave, but to others.

[Mikey_C]

Well personally I have never made it a secret that I favour the AOS solution

Nor have I ever condemned anyone for choosing the MOS route. If that's what people want, fine by me. (Heck I am even on record of having praised the Pegasos Mobo) Freedom of choice and all that.

However when people tell lies or spread nasty rumours about my choice of computing platform, well naturally I get annoyed.

Final point about AmigaWorld. AmigaWorld is indeed very much pro "Amiga" biased as much as say morphos.org etc. So can everyone please accepy that and move on.

As to Amiga.org. I will refrain from commenting further, Kees appears to be doing the right thing atm. (i.e. making it more neutral)

Mikey C


 

It's simple at my end, don't dis my platform I won't dis yours.

[bhoggett]

As to Amiga.org. I will refrain from commenting further, Kees appears to be doing the right thing atm. (i.e. making it more neutral)

Urgh!  I should hope not.

"Neutral" stinks. It basically means "let's not say anything that might offend anybody". The "neutral" response to anyone saying something you disagree with is to say absolutely nothing, as contradicting someone can be offensive and adversarial, and therefore not neutral.

No, I hope Amiga.org never becomes "neutral". It is to be hoped that Kees and the moderators can keep the sire "impartial", but I'd hate to think it will be completely free of controversy.