How is OS4 ?

[DAX]

Is that included with the OS? If not, why not? Doesn't Hyperion have all the rights to do that now?

And since we agreed that comparisons are okay, yes, MorphOS does have that same functionality (obviously 3rd party product, and you need to provide the Kickstart ROM by yourself). You can easily run amiga games by just doubleclicking the adf.

I'm afraid we didn't agree on anything in particular, but alas, AmigaOS utilities do far more than doubleclicks on ADFs.
And Yes they do have rights, we'll see if they do it, it was developed recently and might as well be included in  the next major release who knows (Update 2, only updated system files  and changed stuff under the hood).

[DAX]

Unfortunately even the 460 won't include the Altivec unit. Altivec is essential for things such as multimedia acceleration.

Considering that any Amiga app runs quite fast on my SamFlex (including Timberwolf) I can only imagine it will run faster on the 460EX and it might be very good for many, others might choose the X1000 instead.
And before you start with price issues, i will get mine with small monthly fees, a testament that even with little money you can afford a thing you desire (just finished paying for by big Pioneer Kuro plasma, let me tell you, it costed Way more than an X1000  and i am not rich).

[DAX]

I'm very aware of this, but as I said, emulation doesn't count as nothing beats the real thing

If we lived near I would show you my settings as described in the link i posted, I've done my fare share of side by side comparisons demonstrations (Sam+my trusty A2000 underneath) you would be surprised...(Chuck Rock, R-Type, Xenon 2 and more no difference whatsoever running side by side and played with the same joystick, a competition pro standard + USB version).

[DAX]

Such as?

Opening classic apps and let it access AOS volume for data sharing, double click on WHDLoads and HD installations "transported" directly from classic (an A2000 in my case) no further action required, packing of multy disk games in a single file so that you just double click on it, and other amenities.
I don't know if MOS has utilities to do the same, but since you only mentioned double click on ADFs, I listed some different possible operations.

[DAX]

Okay, good answers to the questions. Probably you don't have experience with these, but I have and I know there are problems.

You gave good reasons for using AmigaOS 4. Because on AmigaOS 3, nothing will happen when you try to do some of the tasks. So you will not do the work, where on AmigaOS 4 it will work impeccable.

On AmigaOS 4 everything is more elegant and transparent than on AmigaOS 3. It is more up to date with the current requirements for Operating System. That is why every AmigaOS 3 user will love AmigaOS 4.

Piru, it seems when your OS of choise don't have VMM, nobody shall use it, even with that machine with only 128MB of RAM? My machine have only 256 MB RAM. VMM came in handly when I compiled the SAM Coupe emulator. For image processing VMM is even more handy.

Also, you deliberately skipped some of my points, but seeing that your OS of choise lacks them, it is quite understandable. Good move actually.

If all 3.9 users cared for was the latest feature they would just stick with Win7 or  Snow leopard I'm afraid, but incidentally I believe all they demonstrated here is how AmigaOS4 is actually what passionate 3.9 users want when they upgrade, that being...AmigaOS of course, something they are already familiar with but that thanks to many updates (and the fact that it runs on faster PPC CPU), allows them to run modern apps such as Blender and Firefox along with their favorite software (being it with petunia or with other integration utilities) and that most of all, is still being developed and enhanced as we speak.

[DAX]

I've used UAE quite some bit (I use it for development), so I'm aware that's it's pretty ok. But still, nothing beats the real thing. And emulation (UAE and launchers) in itself is nothing AOS4-specific, so all the benefits are also available on other platforms (and especially on Windows with it's superior WinUAE).

No wonder then on why you think so and i respect that. Still consider that all ex-amigans I invite here don't share your knowledge of cycle exact stuff (and similar details) and when they see a game running perfectly side by side, they just love it as they love the original. (their reactions are pretty amusing most of the time).
unless you were talking about that kind of satisfaction you get on actually owning/touching the phisical thing and owning/collecting original games, on which i agree even more (I'm a collector myself)

[DAX]

@takemehomegrandma @gazgod
I like my Sam,  I got it in place of a 060 accelerator board for the A2000 and I'm quite happy I did, BUT it is a "meantime" step I took because i wanted to re-acquaint myself with a world i left so many years ago.

That said, I went to a fair and all flavors were shown there (Guruman showed me MOS and Paolone showed me Icaros) but you seem to forget that I don't come from the desert, I do own a powerful Dell XPS, but I also remembered fondly my Amiga times.

Since I own(complete set of disks, manuals, and kick rom) AmigaOS 1.3, 2.1, 3.1, I found my home/familiarity immediately in AmigaOS4.1 and asked myself if there was a future for it.

Then there was the settlement, than the X1000 announcement the rest is history.

I see the chance of getting back at having Amiga (as in "fully boxed computer tailored around the Amiga operating System") as my home computer again and I am willing to support its growth.

As I said, I come from the Commodore days and when I came back last year, I didn't even know MOS or AROS existed, and since my favorite OS is still alive and kicking I don't feel the need for any substitute, nor the need for running away from it, searching for "features".
As i said I don't come from the desert, and I use both my Amiga (a lot) and my PC (bleeding edge stuff) it's all fun

[DAX]

So you just got behind the flag of the ONE TRUE AMIGA then, I figured as much.

You do realise that the only thing that OS4 has over the other alternatives is the name? They are all an interpretation and reimplementation of Commodores Amiga OS, nothing more.

While its refreshing to see some people coming back to the hobby, a hobby is all the Amiga is in any of its incarnations or clones. Telling every one that OS4 is the best when you have no real experience of the alternatives make my blood boil. I am a believer that you cannot know ANY OS until you've lived with it, fought it, sworn at it and maybe forgiven it.

Actually I feel familiarity with AmigaOS4 something i felt a little with Icaros (I have it here) and very little with Mos (shown to me by a very kind and capable person mind you).
But please don't talk as if I am the only one feeling like this, you know there are many that simply like to think of Amiga as fully boxed home computer tailored around AmigaOS, and if it's not "all Commodorish" as you say, well, it still way closer to that definition than anything else in both feel and practicality (X1000)

[DAX]

this is true, but at least you got a 2 year warranty, and I can (presumably) send it to someone for repairs.

Not to mention Acube DOES repair out of warranty Sams for a small fee...

[DAX]

@Fab @TMHM
Guys, you cannot spend hours decribing how OS4 is basically the same as OS3.x and then complaint when a 3.x user tells you that they feel familiarity with OS4. Any user of OS3.x will notice AmigaOS4 IS what they are used to, running on PPC (I talk as an end user).
It is now also integrating modernizations that allow to run modern software like Firefox, but quite frankly there is no need to argue on the above point.

Moreover familiarity doesn't end there, to many Amiga is a boxed commercial home computer running the Amiga Operating System, and we will finally get that with the AmigaOne X1000.

Yeah, Yeah it's not "za Commodorish sh*t" but it comes close enough while your hermit crab paradigm isn't even remotely close.

[DAX]

Hey, that sounds like a fool proof business idea! (provided there are enough "fools" )

You sell *one* Mac computer *at the price of 2*, you provide the anxious customer with a two year warranty slip, and as long as 100% of the sold Mac's doesn't break down within two years, you will make a profit!

And *it would still* be cheaper than OS4 hardware (and *run circles* around any Sam)!

Indeed and you can even get more if you compare the price with the used car I wanted to buy.
I remember my father once came home with a "bargain" he got at a local market, my mother said to him, "why did you get that for? We don't need it!" and him :" it was cheap"! and My mother with what you consider cheap we could have had 3 dinners at a restaurant and they would have been money spent way better!

You see it all boils down at what you want, what you desire, if you want to fork 250 eur for a MOS system (including the OS) that when you decide you want to upgrade to a new machine forces you to spend another 150 eur (and so on for all your HW upgrades), just to live your life scavenging Apple scraps more power to you.

For however slow performing the first Sams were, it was a beginning not an end (as a matter of fact the first slowest models are no longer available) and new faster ones will be out in the future, to a point where the slowest Sam will be faster than any Apple scrap, far better strategy in my opinion.

On the other hand there is the X1000, which the newly announced partnership with Varisys (who made the Nemo board) is clearly not even the last one they'll make (they hint at that in their press release).

So, while AmigaOS keeps on evolving on new HW, you get your cheap Apple scraps that leads nowhere, but then again if that makes you happy, forking 250 eur for that honor, is a very good thing, why not.

[DAX]

Don't start talking about cars now, please...



Of course, and that's my point. I'm just trying to figure out how anyone can desire something 1/2 as good at 10x the cost. The answer so far boils down to: A boing ball!

Nahh, in my case is perspective, you see, as I said already people does not live under a rock and we all have our SnowLeopards and Win7 beasts.
Since I re-discovered Amiga was still alive I immediately imagined a future where a small but healthy niche of computer maniacs (ex-amigans) would enjoy new personal computers made for AmigaOS.
Might start with a 400Mhz Sam, but that crescendo leads to branded fully boxed machines running AmigaOS 5 on several cores on PCI-E3.0 mobos in 2015 (right now we are getting a Dual Core 64Bit cpu with PCI-E 16x, mid point, I might say).
Small steps at a time mind you, but I'm not in a hurry, as long as the road is the right one, I'll gladly enjoy the ride.

[DAX]

@Crumb
maybe you do need a Peg2 if you are developing an OS for it...

And I also see you enjoy 2004/2007 a lot, negating all progress AmigaOS HW and SW has made since your early alphas (what progress? everything is still 1000% identical to OS-0.5, and Aos4.5 will be more or less on par with 1.0, if that!!! ) but as I said many times, your blabbering is irrelevant to end-users. Get over it, and most of all, the time Aos slept are finished, you will see upgrade upon upgrades from now on both software and HW side, you better start getting acquainted to this new situation...

[DAX]

@Crumb

OS4.1 is an early alpha? OS4 HW hasn't progressed much in 5 years, in fact Sam440 has been a step back compared to Peg2. Software wise there are many cosmetic changes but little deep changes (swap memory is one of the most noticeable although it was possible with 3rd party apps on OS3.x, we are still waiting auto stack enlargement and gfx core rewrite)

And you keep doing it again, neglecting any progress, of course you can  improve every part of the OS but if you don't add auto-stack enlargement  there was no progress!
But really, OS4.1Up2 has a ton of under the hood improvements and nothing went untouched from the early alphas you helped beta test.  
As for Sam, it was a beginning and mostly aimed at people spending thousands on towerized 1200/4000 only to get clunky systems very prone at breaking. It did a great job and the intended audience is happy, those that were searching for a performance beast were not.
I told you many times at AW that support for such initiatives would make newer HW possible,  and now they will make the 460EX which is more capable and aimed at a certain OS4 population. Power-users will get an X1000 (I will get it with tiny monthly payments, no need to be rich if you want it. I made them for my plasma, why not making them for something I really want, and costs far less?).

But please Crumb, say there won't be any new HW again (as you did last November) "it doesn't make commercial sense!" You bring luck!

I wonder if you have ever done any constructive post in any thread at amiga.org. It looks like you just have joined amiga.org to spread your blabbering and red troll propaganda.
It seems you live in a candy colored parallel reality. HW and SW side OS4 is 10 years in the past. Hyperion had the chance to design new APIs or at least port their OS to mainstream hardware so user base would not shrink to a few users. They failed.

Actually I live in a world where there is no Amiga or Amiga-like OS that justifies preaching about how cool and modern we are (as you seem to do with morphOS a marginally more mature OS that is still ridiculously obsolete), talk about living in candy worlds...

I see potential in AmigaOS as they are now free to form commercial partnerships and things are starting to move, while I believe the hermit crumb idea first announced to me at Pianeta Amiga by Guruman (in the sense that he told me there would be the MacMini port) didn't seem that hot to me.

But make no mistake, what I saw were 3 OS very far from todays standard, all have a long road to travel making those differences, quite frankly, highly laughable (and that is what I think every time I see you so adamantly writing about them, get real Crumb).

As for your clinging to the past read my lips: from the end of September 2009 (the day they signed the settlement) things have changed, you had a glimpse in the past 6 months, you will notice it even more in the next 12, and if that won't be enough, it will slap you in the face a little further down.

[DAX]

Edit.

[DAX]

OS4.1 final is an early alpha?

last time we talked all you had was OS4 alpha experience since when you became a 4.1 final user?

I think it failed since there's still more people interested in spending thousands on classic hardware than buying Sams.

And you think wrong, as all Sam533, Sam667 and Sam800 are sold out with a few remaining 733. Much more than towered 4000 system on ebay (very sporadic and selling around 2 pieces per year).

So what? Sam460 specs would have been ok-ish 5 years ago but now it's just obsolete before being released. I don't see many reasons to be happy about a machine with amiga-market specs from 5 years ago... last 10 years all amiga market has lagged behind x86 market but now it's getting ridiculous since hardware manofacturers seem unable to produce anything that is capable of performing significantly better than 5 year old (cheaper) hardware.

You seem to forget that having a system with no expandable GFX card is way more limiting than the lack of VMX, I would take a powerful PCI-E card over that any day (much more potential, as in INFINITE more potential).

ATM they have failed to deliver the machine for the summer as they promised and you blindly believed.

I didn't blindly believed anything (ho and summer anyway, finishes September 20th, some 3 months from now).

ATM there's just vapourware (we'll see when x1000 is released... perhaps we'll have to wait until 2011). ACube hardware still doesn't make commercial sense anyway. Otherwise ACube would produce 1000 boards and we wouldn't see spamming-news each time they produce 20 boards.

Tell me where you did get the 20 number, I'm curious...

I don't think I ever claimed that anything amiga-ish has any chance to take the world. Reading your claims about your vapourware x1000 taking over the world is funny. Reading your comparisons of vapourware hardware with real tangible solutions is hilarious.

Glad to amuse you (as I hope you are glad you amuse me)

The bad choices of hardware partners are ruining OS4 chances to be moderately successful in the hobby-OS market. The bad management choices like not releasing OS4.x for existing ppc hardware kill the chances of increasing user base (with the honorable exception of Peg2, although Moana would have made more sense)

Keep your love for dead ends for yourself

The "other OSes" amiga-like have an obvious advantage: if you feel nostalgic or are a little curious about amiga things you can try them out easily (without making big investments) and become an user. And that's the biggest problem for OS4, and the detail some OS4 users try to justify with strange arguments. It's not just about technical disadvantages, my point is that it's too expensive. If they had released Moana at least that problem wouldn't exist for people willing to use 2nd hand hardware. And please note that Moana wouldn't prevent the release of sams, x1000 or whatever vapourware thingie is announced because some people want new hardware.

We'll see about that, 2 of my friends I'm trying to convince to come back tryed Icaros desktop and found it of very little use, while they are interested in AmigaOS, you see "free" not interested at all (maybe not everyone runs his life on 3rd world country budgets as to be that concerned about money).

The only potential of AmigaOS is disappearing and giving it's name to a modern OS. If Hyperion ever wanted to sell a modern OS they would need to get rid of almost all amigaos API to make it evolve and put a "compatibility box" like OSX guys did. You may claim OSX is MacOS but well... it's just a label and it has little in common

The long term clear public goal of OS4.x should be jumping to x86. PPC is dead on desktop.

You should talk with Vidarh about this, he is not convinced it is the only solution, not one bit.

Sure, trying to take over the world with AmigaOS API would be ridiculous and won't work. Claiming it's progressing a lot doesn't make much sense since the API limits all the future evolvement of the OS.

Amiga back comers don't care about that, i run Blender a modern software that needs a modern API and it is ROCK SOLID. Never crashes even after an 8 hour render I can pick it up and continue. Guess that many other modern app will work the same without any mystical api change (just what's needed is the motto

Then it's strange you don't notice that spending 1000Euros to be able to try out a limited toy OS and claiming that it's evolving a lot, that it's "the real one", that it's based on some unimportant old sources of an 80s OS no one knows and getting nervous when another hobby OS beats it in all benchmarks is no less laughable.

I do not reply to your comparisons because of that, but because it wouldn't be the first time I see you hijacking a thread.
Both OSs have along way to go, when one will claim it can do anything the "others" can, we'll talk about it. I believe AOS will get there first now that it is free to run and commercial partnerships can be formed, we'll see about this down the line...

Yeah, I just have noticed how they promised to release a board this summer and they failed. I have also noticed that they released 2 updates for OS4.1 but they are still unable to get USB2.0 working. I have noticed an evaluation motherboard running a FPS at 4fps (wohooo!). I have noticed some cosmetic changes like startup managers and some eyecandy but little deep changes in the core of the OS. In the meanwhile I had to read claims made by people like you praising a vapourware motherboard with unknown specs and praising "new hardware" that is five years late. BTW, the idea of anouncing x1000 using a web-mistery is highly unprofessional and sad. The owners of amigaos think that they have the golden goose, don't realise that the world has evolved last years and try to milk the users.

Crumb, can you just stop being antagonistic? You know the graphics subsystem isn't there, they were using a 33Mhz PCI bus (radeon 9200) on debug.
You know it and keep attacking the X1000, give these guys a break.

The only way for MOS and AOS to get along is to progress on their own and for users to stop being antagonistic. i do that unless an AOS4 thread gets hi-jacked, all AOS4 users do, why don't you return the favor?