Video of Vampire board

[kolla]

So, running OS3.9BB2 as long as the most essential updates ROM updates are skipped? Again, it would be really nice to see OS3.9 Prefs programs running fine.

[kolla]

If the authors ask for money for the SDK, I believe it is really fair to comply with that.

I can pay them in Deutsche Marks I have left, it was relevant currency when paying for SDK/DDKs on Amiga was relevant.

[kolla]

Consider how you would feel like: You created a piece of art, and all you hear from your neighbours how to get hands on it without paying. Do you see what's wrong here?

I would just let them copy it, no big deal, I will still have my piece of art.

[kolla]

+1, we're a small but passionate group so lets support each other and especially our developers/ hardware manufacturers:hammer:

Are you paying attention? As Thomas pointed out "the problem is that P96 is not open source", even he sees that this is a problem. In this case, the P96 owners have no interest in supporting hardware manufacturers, certainly not Polish such. This has _zero_ to do with us end-users, and everything to do with arguing and bickering between those you call developers and the hardware manufacturers. This is how it has always been with Amiga, almost all the big conflicts have been between those who develop products, and not between developers and users.

[kolla]

Many issues. The trouble is that P96 was not and is not open source, and the SDK for it (required to develop drivers) is neither open source.

Do "trouble" and "problem" have much different meanings for you?

[kolla]

The problem are people like you that do not respect the choices of the authors.

Indeed I do not respect choices, I reserve my respect for _people_, and how much I respect people, depends on their choices. So, when people keep doing silly choices, I respect them less. Just because someone wrote some good code, does not make them good people, there are brilliant coders who are really terrible people and who do a lot of bad choices. I have little respect for them.

You're just sitting here saying "let's ignore what the authors want to say about it, let's just grab it".

What I am saying is that authors who care about their work, better come out and show it, and do it themselves and not by proxy of people they barely have any contact with.

Remember how copyright laws started? It was all about what is beneficial for _society_ in general. Same with patent laws. This original agenda has long since been hijacked by people with much sinister agendas.

Sorry, but that's ignorant, and it's not a policy that would help anyone for supporting the platform.

Nonsense. Opening up the platform is what can actually help people support it. The level of hypocrisy in Amiga community is staggering, how so called "piracy" is "ok" as long as it doesn't happen in the "open". Look at Cloanto, when you buy AmigaForever 2016 it comes with loads of cracked games and even "illegal" firmware for CSPPC for OS4.1SE to work. Look at Reaction aka ClassAct, now the official OS4 "toolkit"... how pleased are Caldi et al these days about how that "deal" went through? Who is screwing over who here??

Excuse me. Back then, the SDK was available for money. Surely there is support if you pay for it. Elbox was just cheap. Or why do you think that software authors need to work there arse off to "support manufacturers" that then sell hardware, but get nothing in return?

I was never in the P96 "club", I always used CGFx whenever possible, and it is in a much healthier state than P96. For example, the CGfx3 SDK is where such SDKs should be - on aminet.
 

Are you really that ignorant that you blame Tobias and Alex for not working for free?

I am blaming them for picking a really bad business model for developing such software, as in doing "bad choices" (see above).

How do you pay your bills, if I may be so frank to ask?

I work for a non-profit to bring Internet to higher education institutes in Norway, I am paid to design and implement solutions that enables and allows research and education to take place in ways and locations where it has not been possible before. Like in the Arctic areas for example. We pick open source over closed source whenever possible. We pay people to write open source, we even sometimes take "dead" open source projects and revive them.

And why does your employer pay you in first place?

Because I do a good job, matching their expectations. Coding, hacking, chewing gum and glue, so that students and researches can have working internet access wherever they go, in my country and beyond.

Most importantly - I do work that actually matters to my society, and no strings attached, hence society pays me.

Couldn't you just work for free?

I do that too, I got more projects than I have time for, doing stuff for free. It happens that I volunteer for work that I find satisfying.

And your conclusion is "let's just not pay the authors".

My conclusion is that since the authors chose to not care, why should anyone else.

Now, allow me to ask: Why is that exactly helpful? If software is worthless for you, why should anyone sit down and write it? Or, leave alone, support people like you that are ignorant about the work of others?

Software that is locked away and not maintained _is_ worthless. For example, how much worth is the P96 SDK right now? How useful is it _right this moment_? Tell me, so I can pay for it in hard currency, and liberate it.

[kolla]

So if you did a design and your company decided to not pay you but use it anyway, you'd still have the design so you wouldn't mind not being paid?

Correct. In fact this happens all the time already, as what we design here in Norway is also used elsewhere in Europe and the world. Sometimes parties join to cover development of software, the end result is still available free of charge as open source software. We develop software and solutions because we need them, not to earn money.

[kolla]

Nobody stole anything P96, and still they were pissed off and withdrew from "the market" - why people are still desperately messing around with P96 is beyond what I can understand. It was always very awkward software, witb the least intuitive and Amiga like prefs software ever, so of course it was bound to become "the standard", because, you know... obnoxious German besserwissers

[kolla]

And Thomas, no, I don't expect "everything for free", that is solely your narrowminded stuck-in-the-past understanding. I pay for stuff I believe in, I contribute to software development using my own money. I know it must sound wild whack crazy for you that people pay money for source code only to have it opened up, so anyone can download it. That says more about your view, than mine really.

[kolla]

And as for Vampire2 and hdmi output - I *much* rather want to see improved AGA than RTG.

[kolla]

It is a rather convenient position to have the taxpayer keeping care of your bill, but not everyone is in this pleasant position. Norway has enough oil (yet) to fund you at this time, but you should try - at least for a while - to work in the industry, just a bit, to see the other side of the medal.

I have worked in projects with commercial companies, it also part of the job when developing standards and reference implementations. Luckily, today, most relevant companies base their activities on open sources technologies, and many companies have it as policy to participate in developing open standards and use open source. Closed source of course exists, but as building block for making solid products and platforms, it is dwindling, and dwindling faster every year. Open source conferences are growing larger and larger every year, and these days almost every major industry player participate, to show off their open source products and look for customers, cooperations and potential new hires. Also in non-open source conferences (for example SNIA events), open source solutions are becoming more and more the norm. It doesn't matter what you think or say, the trends are clear, the industry is moving, albeit slowly at times.

I've done both, actually. Currently, I'm pretty much in the same position as you right now (so I'm happy), but I'm not as arrogant as you to state that closed source development has to be damned.

I am not saying it has to be damned, I am saying it _will_ be damned, and there is nothing you can do about it. To pretend this is not the case is rather ignorant.

I believe a good software engineer should be able to make a living (which you cannot, in Amiga land, let's face it, even less with users like you), and not a living from the taxpayer but from his customers.

If you want to survive as a good software engineer these days, you make sure that your creations are open source so that your customers - both those who paid, and those who just picked it up - can participate and improve the product, or you can pretty much wave your chances bye-bye. Your customers will more and more pick other options. I know, because I am a customer.

Both development models have their drawbacks and merrits. Pick the one that suits your case best. As far as public positions are concerned, we're here clearly stating that the tax payer paid for it, so should have access to it. That's fair, too.

It is really more a matter of economy than it is about development models - working with closed source within a company and working with open source with a community is not _that_ different as far as development models are concerned.

But that does not mean that I ignore the need for people to create closed source software; its development is often quicker and driven by the market, not by some abstract funding goals you'll get from the latest university project.

Your views on how things work around here are a bit skewed, but then again, I never met anyone happily working for DFN :laughing:

It's a much harder life in private industry, and I would wish you could appreciate that at some point when you grow older and wiser. You should have done that to appreciate how hard work has to go into products compared to the cozy job you have.

I appreciate hard work when I see it. I appreciate hood products when I use them. So far though, "the industry" you speak of is way too busy creating crapware with tons of insane limitations, lacking interoperability, crazy licensing schemes etc. There is really very little to appreciate.

This being said, I'm really set up by how arrogantly you deny the choices of the original authors. *This* makes me mad. Not the usual sales talk on Open Source - that's just a choice of your business model and I'm fine with whatever fits your needs. There are markets where open source works, and others where it does not.

I do not deny anyone to make dumbass choices, but I am to old to just let such nonsense pass as "the right thing to do".

And please - name one market where open source does not work.

[kolla]

@kolla and Thomas

The whole payment for software discussion seems a bit malplaced. Its easy to say we could/should develop for free when you live in a country like Norway, where the social security is so strong. Even if you loose your job, the state takes care of you. And loosing a job has been "hard" until the oil price crash. And the pay has generally been quite high versus large parts of Europa. I lived/worked a couple of years in USA (California). One day one of my collegues got called into our boss's office. Got fired on the spot for a minor issue. This could never have happened in Norway.
For the record; I live in Norway.

Take Toni in his "OS4 compatible UAE expansion development status" thread. He repeatedly encourage people to donate to motivate him to continue the development.

Ofcourse I appriciate people that release free and/or opensource software. Likewise I appriciate it when people want a dime back for their efforts.

Sorry for the offtopic, but the whole "Im entitled to a free lunch" attitude rubs me the wrong way.

Another one who totally miss the point - closed source software in time becomes _irrelevant_ - it _dies_. Open source at least stands a chance. All these repeating threads about P96 shows exactly that, and every effin time Thomas has to jump in with his repeated ranting about how closed source is just fine, and that we must respect the authors etc - well, the P96 situation shows exactly how it is _not_ fine. And like always it was not users who did anything wrong, but other participants in the "industry". Still, he insists that P96 is the way to go, somehow, because maybe he can get a much reluctant deal, to develop a driver, something many have tried before without much luck. As a user, all this nonsense is just frustrating. I am saying that I am willing to pay with my "communist money" to have sources of P96 liberated. I have contributed thousands of euros in open source projects up through the years, this would be no different. Yet over and over Thomas tells me I just want "free beer", which is not at all true - I want stuff that works and is future proof (read open source), and I am willing to pay for it.

As for jobs - make sure you have multiple skills, do not put all your eggs into one basket, and don't be afraid to change trade.

[kolla]

Will be interesting to see how the core will run on the Vampire 1 boards.

Will not happen, the Vampire 1 is abandoned.