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Offline nicholas

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 02:34:40 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;802485
are there any issues? i have mentioned, it would be better to relay on some open solution..


I believe the uaegfx driver uses the standard GPL so as long as any other driver is based upon this code and is also GPL licensed there is not much legally anyone could do about it is there?
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2016, 03:12:37 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;802486
I believe the uaegfx driver uses the standard GPL so as long as any other driver is based upon this code and is also GPL licensed there is not much legally anyone could do about it is there?

Many issues. The trouble is that P96 was not and is not open source, and the SDK for it (required to develop drivers) is neither open source. It had (and in particular still has, as the ownership has not changed) to be licensed.

I'm not sure how the UAE component came into being and who created it and whether this was done under license from Tobias and Alex, but at least one manufacturer (Elbox) reverse engineered the P96 interface without paying for the license, very much to the dislike of Alex and Tobias. Which, in one way or another, let to the halt of development. Thank you, Elbox!

P96 was a tremendous work  - it is more or less a re-implementation of a major part of the Amiga graphics.library. I believe their authors deserve a little more respect in terms of their work.

So yes, the Vampire driver is based on the proper SDK for P96, and yes, this requires licensing. And yes, they (we) want to license, and it deserves licensing.
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2016, 03:20:55 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;802484
the obvious solution would be to to implement mmu, another possibility, less obvious would be to include all high bandwidth periferials like sata/pata, usb, lan and rtg onboard, with or without classic dma, but either way with an adequate firmware support to make zorro extensions obsolete. a low cpu load while data transfers beyond 10mb/s would be enough not to need zorro for anything much demanding anymore.

Well, just for the sake of an argument, let's assume a similar card appears for the big box systems. I wonder what will happen if the first user of such a board plugs this into his system, with - by coincidence and by "ignoring the manual" as it usual - a DMA based board in the system. And just by coincidence, this construction trashes data on the harddisk.  

In short: Bad idea. Either hardware works correctly and supports all the protocols, or it does not.

For an A600, the problem does not really exist - where should the DMA be going? For big boxes, this is an issue, and this issue is because the CPU (or FPGA) cannot "see behind the Zorro bus drivers" that separate the CPU slot from the zorro slot.  

Solution #1 is to run the system without cache on Zorro. Not nice, but would "work" (for some definition of "work").

Solution #2 would be to disable caching as long as DMA is running. This "works better", but it's still no a good solution. (That's more or less the same solution you'll have to follow when installing "EC" processors).  

Solution #3 would be to implement at least some minimal MMU plus a vampire-specific CPU library that controls caching on DMA'd page boundaries.  

Solution #4 would be to have a full paged 68K MMU. That's a quite complex beast, but it's ideal for compatibility.
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2016, 03:28:19 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;802486
I believe the uaegfx driver uses the standard GPL so as long as any other driver is based upon this code and is also GPL licensed there is not much legally anyone could do about it is there?

Let me clarify one thing: The UAEgfx driver consists of two parts: The GPL'd part that sits within UAE. This you can easily look into. And then there is the P96 component that talks to the P96 core and has to be installed in the emulated Amiga. I'm not sure what the status of this component is and whether it is open source. Even if it is, it does not mean that it is sufficient to replicate the SDK. The includes necessary to built it are surely not freely available.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2016, 03:32:12 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802488
Many issues. The trouble is that P96 was not and is not open source, and the SDK for it (required to develop drivers) is neither open source. It had (and in particular still has, as the ownership has not changed) to be licensed.

I'm not sure how the UAE component came into being and who created it and whether this was done under license from Tobias and Alex, but at least one manufacturer (Elbox) reverse engineered the P96 interface without paying for the license, very much to the dislike of Alex and Tobias. Which, in one way or another, let to the halt of development. Thank you, Elbox!

P96 was a tremendous work  - it is more or less a re-implementation of a major part of the Amiga graphics.library. I believe their authors deserve a little more respect in terms of their work.

So yes, the Vampire driver is based on the proper SDK for P96, and yes, this requires licensing. And yes, they (we) want to license, and it deserves licensing.


If the vampire driver is based upon the official sdk and is licensed then it's irrelevant I guess but say I took the GPL licenced uaegfx driver and modified it to create a driver for another video card (virtual or otherwise) and complied fully with the GPL licence, I am very much legally allowed to do so and the FSF/EFF etc and their teams of lawyers would back me up 100%. Isn't complying FULLY with licences something you are very keen on?
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2016, 03:36:39 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802491
Let me clarify one thing: The UAEgfx driver consists of two parts: The GPL'd part that sits within UAE. This you can easily look into. And then there is the P96 component that talks to the P96 core and has to be installed in the emulated Amiga. I'm not sure what the status of this component is and whether it is open source. Even if it is, it does not mean that it is sufficient to replicate the SDK. The includes necessary to built it are surely not freely available.


Are header files copyrightable?  Only in the USA as far as I'm aware and even that is only a very recent ruling because of Oracle.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2016, 04:01:26 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;802492
If the vampire driver is based upon the official sdk and is licensed then it's irrelevant I guess but say I took the GPL licenced uaegfx driver and modified it to create a driver for another video card (virtual or otherwise) and complied fully with the GPL licence, I am very much legally allowed to do so and the FSF/EFF etc and their teams of lawyers would back me up 100%. Isn't complying FULLY with licences something you are very keen on?

Look, all this arguing really makes me sad. IANAL, but: If the authors ask for money for the SDK, I believe it is really fair to comply with that.  

You're just stating "arguments" to go cheap. No, sorry. P96 was good work, and it deserves some monetary feedback if the authors ask for it.

Consider how you would feel like: You created a piece of art, and all you hear from your neighbours how to get hands on it without paying. Do you see what's wrong here?
 

Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2016, 04:03:26 PM »
So, running OS3.9BB2 as long as the most essential updates ROM updates are skipped? Again, it would be really nice to see OS3.9 Prefs programs running fine.
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Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2016, 04:05:31 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802496
If the authors ask for money for the SDK, I believe it is really fair to comply with that.


I can pay them in Deutsche Marks I have left, it was relevant currency when paying for SDK/DDKs on Amiga was relevant.
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Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2016, 04:07:47 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802496

Consider how you would feel like: You created a piece of art, and all you hear from your neighbours how to get hands on it without paying. Do you see what's wrong here?


I would just let them copy it, no big deal, I will still have my piece of art.
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Offline klx300r

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2016, 04:07:50 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802496
Look, all this arguing really makes me sad. IANAL, but: If the authors ask for money for the SDK, I believe it is really fair to comply with that.  

You're just stating "arguments" to go cheap. No, sorry. P96 was good work, and it deserves some monetary feedback if the authors ask for it.

Consider how you would feel like: You created a piece of art, and all you hear from your neighbours how to get hands on it without paying. Do you see what's wrong here?


+1, we're a small but passionate group so lets support each other and especially our developers/ hardware manufacturers:hammer:
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Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2016, 04:16:30 PM »
Quote from: klx300r;802500
+1, we're a small but passionate group so lets support each other and especially our developers/ hardware manufacturers:hammer:


Are you paying attention? As Thomas pointed out "the problem is that P96 is not open source", even he sees that this is a problem. In this case, the P96 owners have no interest in supporting hardware manufacturers, certainly not Polish such. This has _zero_ to do with us end-users, and everything to do with arguing and bickering between those you call developers and the hardware manufacturers. This is how it has always been with Amiga, almost all the big conflicts have been between those who develop products, and not between developers and users.
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A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
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A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
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Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2016, 04:29:07 PM »
Quote from: kolla;802501
Are you paying attention? As Thomas pointed out "the problem is that P96 is not open source", even he sees that this is a problem.  
No, the "not open source" is not a problem. The problem are people like you that do not respect the choices of the authors. You're just sitting here saying "let's ignore what the authors want to say about it, let's just grab it".

Sorry, but that's ignorant, and it's not a policy that would help anyone for supporting the platform.
Quote from: kolla;802501
In this case, the P96 owners have no interest in supporting hardware manufacturers, certainly not Polish such.  
Excuse me. Back then, the SDK was available for money. Surely there is support if you pay for it. Elbox was just cheap. Or why do you think that software authors need to work there arse off to "support manufacturers" that then sell hardware, but get nothing in return?

Are you really that ignorant that you blame Tobias and Alex for not working for free?

How do you pay your bills, if I may be so frank to ask? And why does your employer pay you in first place? Couldn't you just work for free?  
Quote from: kolla;802501
This has _zero_ to do with us end-users, and everything to do with arguing and bickering between those you call developers and the hardware manufacturers.
And your conclusion is "let's just not pay the authors". Now, allow me to ask: Why is that exactly helpful? If software is worthless for you, why should anyone sit down and write it? Or, leave alone, support people like you that are ignorant about the work of others?
 

Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2016, 04:39:03 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802488
Many issues. The trouble is that P96 was not and is not open source, and the SDK for it (required to develop drivers) is neither open source.


Do "trouble" and "problem" have much different meanings for you?
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Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2016, 05:18:42 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802502
The problem are people like you that do not respect the choices of the authors.
Indeed I do not respect choices, I reserve my respect for _people_, and how much I respect people, depends on their choices. So, when people keep doing silly choices, I respect them less. Just because someone wrote some good code, does not make them good people, there are brilliant coders who are really terrible people and who do a lot of bad choices. I have little respect for them.

Quote
You're just sitting here saying "let's ignore what the authors want to say about it, let's just grab it".

What I am saying is that authors who care about their work, better come out and show it, and do it themselves and not by proxy of people they barely have any contact with.

Remember how copyright laws started? It was all about what is beneficial for _society_ in general. Same with patent laws. This original agenda has long since been hijacked by people with much sinister agendas.

Quote
Sorry, but that's ignorant, and it's not a policy that would help anyone for supporting the platform.

Nonsense. Opening up the platform is what can actually help people support it. The level of hypocrisy in Amiga community is staggering, how so called "piracy" is "ok" as long as it doesn't happen in the "open". Look at Cloanto, when you buy AmigaForever 2016 it comes with loads of cracked games and even "illegal" firmware for CSPPC for OS4.1SE to work. Look at Reaction aka ClassAct, now the official OS4 "toolkit"... how pleased are Caldi et al these days about how that "deal" went through? Who is screwing over who here??

Quote
Excuse me. Back then, the SDK was available for money. Surely there is support if you pay for it. Elbox was just cheap. Or why do you think that software authors need to work there arse off to "support manufacturers" that then sell hardware, but get nothing in return?

I was never in the P96 "club", I always used CGFx whenever possible, and it is in a much healthier state than P96. For example, the CGfx3 SDK is where such SDKs should be - on aminet.
 
Quote
Are you really that ignorant that you blame Tobias and Alex for not working for free?

I am blaming them for picking a really bad business model for developing such software, as in doing "bad choices" (see above).


Quote
How do you pay your bills, if I may be so frank to ask?

I work for a non-profit to bring Internet to higher education institutes in Norway, I am paid to design and implement solutions that enables and allows research and education to take place in ways and locations where it has not been possible before. Like in the Arctic areas for example. We pick open source over closed source whenever possible. We pay people to write open source, we even sometimes take "dead" open source projects and revive them.

Quote
And why does your employer pay you in first place?

Because I do a good job, matching their expectations. Coding, hacking, chewing gum and glue, so that students and researches can have working internet access wherever they go, in my country and beyond.

Most importantly - I do work that actually matters to my society, and no strings attached, hence society pays me.

Quote
Couldn't you just work for free?

I do that too, I got more projects than I have time for, doing stuff for free. It happens that I volunteer for work that I find satisfying.

Quote
And your conclusion is "let's just not pay the authors".

My conclusion is that since the authors chose to not care, why should anyone else.

Quote
Now, allow me to ask: Why is that exactly helpful? If software is worthless for you, why should anyone sit down and write it? Or, leave alone, support people like you that are ignorant about the work of others?

Software that is locked away and not maintained _is_ worthless. For example, how much worth is the P96 SDK right now? How useful is it _right this moment_? Tell me, so I can pay for it in hard currency, and liberate it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 05:20:57 PM by kolla »
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A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
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Offline polyp2000

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #29 from previous page: January 19, 2016, 05:50:33 PM »
Quote from: kolla;802506
Indeed I do not respect choices, I reserve my respect for _people_, and how much I respect people, depends on their choices. So, when people keep doing silly choices, I respect them less. Just because someone wrote some good code, does not make them good people, there are brilliant coders who are really terrible people and who do a lot of bad choices. I have little respect for them.



What I am saying is that authors who care about their work, better come out and show it, and do it themselves and not by proxy of people they barely have any contact with.

Remember how copyright laws started? It was all about what is beneficial for _society_ in general. Same with patent laws. This original agenda has long since been hijacked by people with much sinister agendas.



Nonsense. Opening up the platform is what can actually help people support it. The level of hypocrisy in Amiga community is staggering, how so called "piracy" is "ok" as long as it doesn't happen in the "open". Look at Cloanto, when you buy AmigaForever 2016 it comes with loads of cracked games and even "illegal" firmware for CSPPC for OS4.1SE to work. Look at Reaction aka ClassAct, now the official OS4 "toolkit"... how pleased are Caldi et al these days about how that "deal" went through? Who is screwing over who here??



I was never in the P96 "club", I always used CGFx whenever possible, and it is in a much healthier state than P96. For example, the CGfx3 SDK is where such SDKs should be - on aminet.
 


I am blaming them for picking a really bad business model for developing such software, as in doing "bad choices" (see above).




I work for a non-profit to bring Internet to higher education institutes in Norway, I am paid to design and implement solutions that enables and allows research and education to take place in ways and locations where it has not been possible before. Like in the Arctic areas for example. We pick open source over closed source whenever possible. We pay people to write open source, we even sometimes take "dead" open source projects and revive them.



Because I do a good job, matching their expectations. Coding, hacking, chewing gum and glue, so that students and researches can have working internet access wherever they go, in my country and beyond.

Most importantly - I do work that actually matters to my society, and no strings attached, hence society pays me.



I do that too, I got more projects than I have time for, doing stuff for free. It happens that I volunteer for work that I find satisfying.



My conclusion is that since the authors chose to not care, why should anyone else.



Software that is locked away and not maintained _is_ worthless. For example, how much worth is the P96 SDK right now? How useful is it _right this moment_? Tell me, so I can pay for it in hard currency, and liberate it.

This is precisely the problem with binary only software. Once a software developer decides to cease support and development , what precisely are you paying for? By opening it up for others to continue developing you are allowing your work to grow , mature and potentially have the support of a community.

What precisely does the license grant you ?
1) Entitlement to future updates ? - No , development is stagnant
2) Support when things go wrong ? - Doubtful why would an inactive developer care?

What does this grant the developer of P96?
Given the above. possibly some pennies every now and again.

No-one  benefits from this , least of all the Amiga community.

What we should be doing is supporting ACTIVE developers and projects that have some sort of long term future.

We know all this though - when the final nails were in the coffin of commodore
development stopped , there were no more machines, no new hardware. The OS development continued, but the current developer has decided its better to target high priced PPC hardware for no relevant reason. The community stepped in - we now have mature alternatives such as AROS, which has been ported to different architectures - and the OS will have a future even if AmigaOS4 development stopped altogether.  Sneer all you want about Open Source but without it and alternatives AmigaOS dies when Hyperion dies.

There is no problem with closed source software however - but developers should really think hard why they shouldnt open up the code when the doors are closed for the last time.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 05:55:38 PM by polyp2000 »