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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2013, 03:52:03 AM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;739867
I have a feeling Linux may get another chance at the desktop. Microsoft fired their pc software manager and they are now all under the Windows phone division. Thanks, I'll have a 27inch videophone instead of a computer.
The Windows 8 debacle is an open invitation for a good alternative OS, alright - but so was the Windows Me debacle, and the Windows Vista debacle, and Linux isn't really any better-suited to fill that gap now than it was then, because the guiding forces behind Linux still don't get usability or simplicity of design.

These are people who, faced with the problem of a complex and arcane directory structure in which any one application might conceivably have files spread across child folders of half the root-level directories in the system and installation and uninstallation is consequently a nightmare for less technical users, come up with complex package managers to automate it instead of working towards a less cryptic directory structure. Their response to needless complexity is not to simplify it, but merely to hide it behind an automated interface, because as toRus says, they're slavishly devoted to crufty legacy standards from the days when Unix was driving serial terminals on PDP-11s. Hell, they're only just now starting to move away from xserver.

These are people for whom "user-friendly" is the same thing as "idiot-oriented;" the kind of people who give the world things like Gnome 3. They don't get usability, they don't get ordinary users, and Linux is never going to get anywhere in the desktop market until they do.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2013, 03:52:48 AM »
Quote from: persia;739894
Who care about the desktop?  Look at the post PC market, both Android and OS X are UNIX based and they control over 90% of the market.
Keep repeating "post-PC" to yourself, man. Maybe one of these days the power of belief will make it true!
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2013, 12:41:44 AM »
And yet they're still being made, and absolutely nobody in the OS market except head-up-its-ass Microsoft is even trying to downplay the importance of real computers running real computer operating systems (and even MS aren't dumb enough to cut desktop functionality altogether.) News flash: the decline in PC sales reflects nothing more than the fact that we're currently in the middle of a plateau where the needs of PC users are, largely, served just as well by equipment they already have or can acquire cheaply used as by new, high-end computers.

Also, claiming that PCs are dying because people aren't watching as much video on them is like saying that cars are obsolete because more people are having sex on beds.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2013, 03:43:28 PM »
Quote from: persia;740016
It's more a realignment, than an actual death.  The PC was the core of the computer world, everything you had fed off it.  Now it's just one device of many that serves those needs.  It's just one of many choices.  There is no one device that everyone must have, it's all context driven, what you need to do determines the device(s) you need.  Nobody needs a PC to do facebook and youtube, but in the past they would buy a PC because it was the only choice, now it's not.  PCs are a declining percentage of smart devices.
First off, you're blatantly changing your position here, I guess because you finally realized that the one you were taking was nonsense. "Ooh, ooh, it's not an actual death! Despite the fact that I've been crowing about the 'death of the PC' at every opportunity for two or three years!"

In any case, A. I've still seen no reason to believe that the number of people in this fabled "Facebook mall-rat" demographic, who only use a computer for yammering about their pets on Facebook and watching funny cat videos on YouTube, and therefore have no use for a real computer once they get a Facebook slab, is anywhere near as huge as tablet evangelists think it is, and B. claiming that PCs are "a declining percentage" of gadgets because of declining sales is still completely baseless, given that there are countless machines out in the field that already meet or exceed the requirements for many people, and no evidence whatsoever that they aren't being used.

(Additionally, these figures never bother to take into account people who build their own PCs rather than buy from an OEM, but hey! When you want to make the numbers turn out your way, I guess you gotta leave data out somewhere.)
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2013, 12:15:25 AM »
Quote from: persia;740052
Your TV does internet, XBOX, PlayStation, Wii do internet, phones do internet, tablets do internet, zeus knows what else will do internet.
Yes, an assload of devices can now "do Internet" (apparently we're  borrowing phrasing from a seventy-year-old grandma, doing the Internet  with the Bookface and the VideoTube and the whatsits?) None of them do  it as well as a PC or laptop; of those, only tablets even come  close. A smartphone is definitely easier to carry in your pocket than a  laptop, and it's a perfectly fine thing for keeping a grocery list or  checking email on the road; for actual web browsing, it's heavily  constrained by screen size, with the experience being anywhere from  "tolerable but not great" on sites with "phone" versions to downright  comically bad on sites designed for a full-sized screen.

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The PC age, where the desktop was dominant is no more, devices other than PCs form the majority of smart devices.  The market is proving it as we speak.
The market is proving nothing of the kind, unless you've got some  figures on actual usage you're not sharing. Once again: sales  figures only convey information about what people are buying, not  what they are using and in which contexts they are using it. There  is absolutely no reason to assume that everybody who buys an iPhone goes  and throws out their desktop, unless you're desperately trying to make  things sound like you want them to sound using data that doesn't  actually support that assertion.

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Who needs a desktop?  Those who do serious work such as developing apps for other smart devices.  Who doesn't need them?  Most everybody else.
Who needs a desktop or laptop? Anybody who does any kind of  meaningful work on a computer, anybody who enjoys creative pursuits  using the mass of good creative software for PCs, anybody who  doesn't like touchscreens or shıtty rubber Bluetooth keyboards in floppy  fold-out "poor man's laptop" cases, anybody who enjoys games that aren't the Bejeweled crap flooding the iOS or Android markets or watered-down console garbage, anybody who wants cost-effective mass storage, etcetera, etcetera.

Who doesn't need them? Slackjaws for whom the computer is a glorified TV, who spend their entire free time watching Jenna farkin' Marbles and desperately trying to get her to "like" them on Facebook, and for whom the closest they ever get to any kind of creative pursuit is spinning wild tales about the "post-PC era" at the slightest provocation. Yeah, those people probably don't need a real computer; they might hurt themselves on its non-patented square corners. They should be much safer with a smooth, featureless 6oz. slab.

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The PC is just one device amongst a host of devices.  This is what Apple and others have meant by post-pc.  Apple continues to develop desktops too, so if they meant what you believed them to mean they'd be kicking a dead horse.
The fact that Apple's business arm has a great deal more sense than its marketing arm (which is probably just repeating "post-PC" in an attempt to get people to believe it, and buy more iPads) does not change the meaning of the words "post-PC era," because those words actually mean set things and combine in regular ways, and insisting that they mean something different together is poor communication. If they really are only trying to say that people use other things than PCs for some tasks, I have news for you: people have always used things other than PCs for some tasks. Did the microwave bring about the "post-oven era?"

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Speaking of horses, no one would argue that we are in the post-horse transport era, yet I can still ride a horse if I want to.
This would be a meaningful analogy if horses were actually better at a wide variety of tasks than cars and more comfortable for long-term use. It's actually the opposite, so working from your logic, I look forward to the upcoming post-tablet era.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2013, 01:31:03 AM »
Quote from: Duce;740057
John, may I ask you what you use for a cellular phone, what you use for a day to day PC, etc?  Have you used an iPad, Android tablet, larger form factor smart phone?

Most people have zero problems browsing the web in a fully functional  manner on any smartphone that was made in the last few years.  We're  talking "free with a contract" run of the mill Android fare.

It's not 2002.  The vast majority of popular websites do have mobile  versions that work just great.  Most people aren't using Palm Treo's.   In fact, A.org is the ONLY website I visit on a regular basis that  doesn't have an auto detecting mobile version.
You may. I have some cheap imitation Blackberry thing that was the cheapest thing Verizon supported last time I upgraded, because all I personally do with a phone is place and receive calls. (I would've gone for a no-frills flip-phone, but counterintuitively they wanted more for that!) Day-to-day computing is mostly on my laptop, a 12" HP Core 2 Duo affair, with gaming and some various pursuits that require stationary equipment (MIDI sequencing, f'rexample) on my desktop system, a significantly faster Core 2 Duo with a halfway decent GPU.

I have, however, used my brother's iPad and iPhone enough to get a feel for them. The web browsing experience on the iPad is basically okay except for the touchscreen keyboard (the Bluetooth keyboard makes it better, but it's still nowhere near as good as even a half-travel laptop keyboard.) Yes, Safari's technical functionality is perfectly satisfactory; it's not like the dark days of Opera Mobile on Blackberries. And yes, more sites support mobile browsers than used to (though I think it's not by as much as you think, but eh.) It's still not a good experience, because it's just too damn cramped.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2013, 03:39:47 AM »
Quote from: persia;740070
What percentage of people do things other than facebook and email?
Good question! Do you know? Because if you don't have some evidence that the answer is "not many," I can't see how this line of inquiry helps your point.

Quote
Back in the '80s people had a computer to program and tinker with.  But nowadays few program and even fewer tinker.
Even assuming this is true, there is a vast swath of things that can be done with a computer in between "programming and hardware hacking" and "Facebook and email."
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2013, 03:14:14 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;740092
I think the industry would like to move everyone over to tablets etc, they imagine the public never aspire to do anything creative and will buy any sparkly gadget you throw at them, I don't think they're finding it quite that easy though. There's been a resurgence in tinkering lately in the form of the "makers movement". Maybe it's testament to the fact that hobbying all but died out 20 years ago, that the next generation had to invent another name for it.
Right on.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2013, 07:04:48 PM »
No, no, see, creative people don't count, haywire, because nobody is creative anymore! The only creative activity in the modern world is the province of some tiny elite cadre of Designated Content Producers who are elevated beyond the station of mere mortals, and all the rest of the world is made up of glassy-eyed couch potatoes who simply are Not Creative and only exist to sit passively consuming content and mooing approval! This is obviously true because, well, it's obviously true!

Christ. It's kind of amazing that I of all people have more faith in the human race than tablet evangelists.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2013, 10:59:36 PM »
Again, do you have any basis at all for these claims, or are you just pulling numbers out of your ass? And once again, programming is not the only non-FaceTube activity computers are useful for.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2013, 01:35:26 AM »
Quote from: persia;740139
PCs are appliances, like toasters or dishwashers.  People don't buy a dishwasher to be creative, they buy it to wash the dishes.  Most people want to go on Facebook not write HTML5.  In the '80s you were dealing with a self selected audience, in the '10s you are dealing with virtually everybody.
You are correct that the market for computers is much broader than it was in the '80s. Yes, it contains many more non-programmers than it used to. However, you are still completely ignoring the question: how do you even know that most people only want to "go on Facebook" and not do any of the hundreds of other, non-technical, non-programming things that PCs are useful for? You keep making this blanket assertion and you have absolutely nothing to back it up with aside from the truly shocking revelation that more people watch video on devices that are specifically geared towards watching video.

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The cost of entry was very high US$1300 well over AU$2000 for an Amiga 2000 when average wages were AU$400 per week. Now an iPad costs US$499/AU$579 and average wages are AU$1400 per week.  It's no longer a major investment.
And an entry-level computer in either desktop or laptop form factor can be had for less than half that, if you even buy it new from an OEM; and it can run a far broader range of much more useful software. Your point?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:37:27 AM by commodorejohn »
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2013, 02:09:47 AM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;740147
I suppose it is anecdotal evidence.
I'll let persia answer for himself, assuming he actually ever will answer, but if it's anecdotal, I can provide plenty of counter-examples.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2013, 11:40:06 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;740262
I thought you were both writing roughly the same thing.
Not remotely...
 
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The majority of people only use facetwitmytube, they only need a simple appliance.
I have my doubts about that assertion (they really don't use a computer for anything else?) and I certainly don't buy his 95% figure, unless he can come up with some data to back it and isn't just pulling it out of his ass.

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He is making the distinction of people using facebook or html5, but that is just for comparison of user types.
Unless I misunderstand, when he mentions HTML5 he's talking about web authoring using HTML5, not browsing HTML5 sites.

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There are plenty of ways you can consume and plenty of ways you can create.
There are indeed, but he (along with pretty much every other tablet zealot) is claiming that the majority (95%, according to him) of people just aren't creative and only exist to be media-consuming couch potatoes, and therefore the creative potential of a platform is irrelevant and nobody needs a real computer.

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In the UK they are talking about teaching programming in schools again (they only teach you how to use things like word, excel, some form of database right now).
And it's high friggin' time.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2013, 12:21:53 AM »
Quote from: persia;740273
And what is creative?  There are video, audio and image editing apps on iOS, surely this is being creative.
There are; they're not as good as PC software for the equivalent tasks, both because of the inherent limitations of the platform (image editing by dragging your fingers all over the very image you're trying to work on? No thanks!) and because Apple's design standards emphasize simplicity over capability because otherwise the poor dear users might get confused or something.

Quote from: psxphill;740275
Probably something you could make money from. Editing your selfies doesn't really count.
I wouldn't restrict it that much; plenty of people do creative stuff as a hobby. But yes, editing selfies and noodling on a crappy touch-piano is nothing like real digital painting or arranging music in a home studio.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2013, 04:31:35 AM »
Quote from: persia;740295
Actually I've been meaning to challenge something that you have been implying, that less people are programming when the evidence clearly points to more people programming than ever.  Just look at the App store or Google Play.
I never implied any such thing. You've been the one maintaining that 95% of people (a figure that you still have yet to back up in any way) don't program or do any other creative pursuits on PCs and only need Facebook and email and that's why nobody needs PCs anymore. (Don't pretend this isn't what you were saying. I'll go back and grab the quotes if you want.)

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I also find it ironic that you as an Amiga fan would talk about limited apps, iOS has apps far more sophisticated than Deluxe Paint or the video toaster software, so if using 'limited" apps is an issue why do you still use an Amiga?
"More sophisticated" in terms of overall horsepower applied to a task? Sure; even the original iPhone beats out an Amiga for that. And some iOS software does manage to ignore Apple's "don't do anything that might confuse the computer-illiterate" guidelines, and is more capable for it. The platform as a whole, however, is still geared away from productivity and towards passive consumption. That makes it simply not a good platform for creative pursuits. All this you have yourself admitted multiple times in this very thread.

Whereas - say what you will about the Amiga - it never had that problem, because, like classic Windows and classic Mac OS, it dates from the days before the industry started this push towards computer-as-glorified-TV. In the Amiga's heyday, it was expected that if you bought a computer, you were either going to do work on it or engage in creative pursuits, not just fart around on Facebook and watch YouTube. Consequently, the Amiga has a full complement of quality creative software which doesn't try to compromise on delivering a full-fledged desktop creative workstation experience - and I don't really care whether you think they're "ew, primitive," I'd take an Amiga with a handful of quality programs over iOS shovelware any day.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #29 from previous page: July 09, 2013, 06:54:09 PM »
Quote from: Blinx123;740387
Windows/AmigaOS are definitely easier to use and way harder to break though. I would probably have to spend 5 hours and 10 pints of beer to screw things up inside Window's registry the way I did for Linux with one silly command.
And then you'd at least have ten pints in you to soften the blow!
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup