They are here! M$ and a new trick!

[Hammer]

that_punk_guy wrote:
Lame...

What will happen to FreeDOS (MS DOS compatible)?  

[Hammer]

MS-DOS compatible but with an incompatible filesystem?

What will happen to Atari ST’s file system (I recall it was a modified version of FAT)?  

Currently, FreeDOS uses FAT.

Yes, think about it, there are wider-reaching implications in this. Think operating system support.

Perhaps similar to GIF style licensing?

[Hammer]

voytech wrote:
It's really sick! Why people just don't want to use free software (GNU) and get away from M$ policies?? I mean, everthing is going to be "Designed for WinShit XXX". Do you know how much I had to search a driver for my canon S400 printer (now it's everywhere, but then..), it came with 2 cd's for windblows, and nothing for linux..

The legacy support for applications, game and skills set would serve as a bloat achor for MS.

Linux driver ecosystem (2.4) model currently suck i.e. many of the open source authors scratching the same itch but still missing the mark.  Under guidance of Linus, perhaps it will be fix in 2.6 kernel.    

[Hammer]

bloodline wrote:

mikeymike wrote:
MS-DOS compatible but with an incompatible filesystem? :roll:

Yes, think about it, there are wider-reaching implications in this.  Think operating system support.

Um... Can't we cleanroom a compatible Fat12 FS?

Precedent would probably come from GIF licensing schemes.  It’s morally repugnant IF the companies release the said standard while free (implied) then turn around and charge the customers. IF these companies have plans to charge royalties in the future why didn't they stated this fact during the initial release(back in 1980s)?    

[Hammer]

bloodline wrote:
I've just remembered that all PC BIOS chips use FAT to read the boot disk... this really is a bad bad thing...

Refer to
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39116902,00.htm

Microsoft has expanded its relationship with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies. BIOS support for FAT would be OK for now…

[Hammer]

that_punk_guy wrote:

Hammer wrote:

Microsoft has expanded its relationship with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies. BIOS support for FAT would be OK for now…

Hmm, Microsoft and Phoenix... this trusted computer platform was brought to you by the letters D, R and M... ;-)

To quote the article
Phoenix said the DRM-enabled CME was not part of Microsoft's NGSCB, but that the technology was complementary. The CME would allow PC makers to embed digital rights management directly into the hardware, though they would have the option of allowing users to turn it off.

PS; Such Identifiable IDs was already included in Intel’s Pentium VI processor (can be turned off or on).

[Hammer]

chris wrote:


@Hammer
Pentium VI?  Can I borrow your time machine?  :-)

Chris

Ops, I flipped the “IV” chars…  :-o  :-D

[Hammer]

mikeymike wrote:

Pentium VI? Can I borrow your time machine?

LOL, I didn't even think of that (version jump).  I just ignored whoever said it originally because I was thinking that no successor to the P4 has been announced in any shape or form yet :-)

I flipped the IV characters around, my mistake (i.e. time to stick with the normal 1,2,3...n).

[Hammer]

PC BIOS is obsolete. All it really does is monitor hardware and activate the boot drive so the OS can be started. After that, the OS and drivers do all the work. 90% of BIOS options these days are set to defaults and ignored, unless you're trying to get Windows3.1 to boot.

IF it’s obsolete why not just re-flash your BIOS with zeros? Let's see IF your system can boot up... Obsolesce means that an item can be discarded.

Modern PC BIOS is important since they take care most of the integrated features (i.e. activation/ deactivation) of any full featured X86 motherboards. These integrated features can range from SATA RAID, PATA RAID, AC97, 1394, USB Mouse/Keyboard, FSB settings**, voltage settings**, memory settings**, 100Mb/1Gb NICs, AGP Aperture, AGP8X activation/deactivation switch, AGP fast writes,  dual BIOS and etc.

MS WinXP drivers wouldn't see SATA RAID, PATA RAID and AC97 IF they are deactivated via PC’s BIOS settings.

PS; The mentioned integrated features are all present in GA-7N400 Pro2*. ASUS A7N8X Deluxe* also has similar features sets.

*Illustrated as examples.
**Extensive features for overclocking and performance oriented tweaking.

None of X86 LinuxBIOS will replace the nForce 2 BIOS in terms of the feature set. IF there is one then would like to hear it.  

PC's BIOS shields Windows the difference between chipsets for booting, safe mode and during setup** i.e. VIA KT600 (VIA 4in1 drivers) vs NVIDIA nForce2 (NV Forceware) vs Intel 865/875 and 'etc'.

You can’t say something is obsolete IF said item is important to the system processes.  

Refer to
http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix03/tech/freenix03/agnew/agnew_html/index.html

Look for "Table 1" and refer to "Operating system dependencies on BIOS interrupt functionality".

Also, there are terms that associated with PC BIOS e.g.
PNP BIOS
ACPI, I.e Power On by keyboard, Power On by Mouse,Modem RingOn, PME Event Wake Up,
PCI Table
Int13 Handling
'etc'.

PS;
1. VIA’s Hyperion 4in1_V4.51 drivers will override any AGP Aperture settings to 32(i.e. workarounds) since there are issues with VIA based chipsets, +1GB memory and ATI AGP cards.

2.
As for "PC BIOS. The BIOS, most always written in assembler, operates mostly in 16 bit mode, and provides services that few modern 32 bit operating systems require" Usenix's fluff,
Phoenix BIOS 4.0 supports " BIOS32 Service Directory" i.e.  for 32bit code and services.

http://www.phoenix.com/en/customer+services/white+papers-specs/pc+industry+specifications.htm

[Hammer]

Couldn't it be that longhorn is a bit resource-hungry

Did you forget Windows Anvil?

Some of the Window’s new and near future releases are; (not including Windows Longhorn release)
MS Windows XP Media Centre (2004) X86-32 OEM/RTM (OEM update (?)).
MS Windows XP Media Centre X86-32 OEM/RTM.
MS Windows XP AMD64* (a.k.a **Windows Anvil (relates to Claw/Sledge Hammer processors)).
MS Windows 2003 Server AMD64**
MS Windows CE .NET 4.2 (current)
MS Windows CE .NET 5.0 (future)

*Substantially different to MS Windows XP IA-64 e.g. better legacy and games support.

As with Windows 9X code base; Microsoft will probably milk Windows NT 5.x code base until Windows longhorn is ready.

[Hammer]

Intel have said something amusing about 100W heat dissipation being perfectly acceptable, kind of reminds me of "640K should be enough for anyone"

Well, Intel has stated something like "the mainstream users doesn’t need a relatively cheap 64bit processor".  

[Hammer]

No, obsolete means something is outmoded, which can also mean unfashionable or infirior.

IF something is 'obsolete' it’s usually that item has been replace with something else, thus it’s non-importance i.e. one can get rid of it all together.

That doesn't always mean it can be discarded. Of course, I'm thinking in terms of not needing Windows, anymore.

Can you detail why is that the case (in regards to" I'm thinking in terms of not needing Windows, anymore")?  

Most modern OSes are mainly copies from the 1970s Unix OS.

Yes, yes. It does that by using the oldest access modes possible. That's what I mean by that remaining 10% of the current BIOS that's actually useful.

Actually the original PC BIOS is only ~64KB, while ASUS A7N8X-DLX BIOS 1007’s and GA-7N400Pro2's F5 BIOS size is at 512KB (illustrated as examples).

With a standardised ecosystem, an unsupported X86 PC OS can  run on a new X86  platform e.g. nForce II/nForce III, Intel 865/875, AMD K8 Solo and 'etc'.  

This insurance policy gives it's users the freedom to choice for any future**, current and past X86 PC operating systems. Such insurance was important for the introduction of AMD K8 based motherboards for gaining certain level of usability.

**IF MS and Phoenix didn't change the standard e.g. Windows Longhorn beta still runs on X86 PC box.

Legacy is actually the main strength of X86 PC’s dominance (i.e. it acts as a boat anchor, software investment protection and an insurance policy) while going forward via new driver support.  

Why do you have to disable hardware if the OS can simply ignore it (no driver is initialized)? Sounds more like bad design to me.

I can give a few reasons for BIOS options and these are
1. It gives the user the options i.e. a user may not have SATA drive and Firewire add-ons at this time, thus disabling the features.
2. Non-OS centric for choosing what’s on and what’s off. PS; WinXP can ignore unwanted hardware features (OS centric selection).  
3. Make the boot time faster by turning off unneeded features. For example, AC97 ALC650 (with 5.1) sound chip was turned off due to my selection for Audigy 2 ZS 7.1 card and faster boot times.
4. A Linux distro can avoid confusion when AC97 and EMU10K (connected to speakers) are present(for automated setup).
5. Why set a single way of enabling/disabling of HW features?

What companies actually standardize BIOS architecture?

In modern times, it's primary by Microsoft and Phoenix. Both has substantial market power thus creation of the “de’facto standard”. IBM was the initial standard setter.

At the moment PowerPC desktop PC clone market doesn’t really have de’facto BIOS maker.

[Hammer]

The majority of BIOS tweaks are to ensure legacy support, like all those PCI interrupt
mappings and crap.

Have you looked at a modern X86 BIOS?

Should one list the feature set from nForce2(illustrated as an example) motherboard?
E.g. In AwardBIOS's (ASUS A7N8X-DLX Ver1.0x)
0. Main
+ System Date
+ System Time
+ Legacy Diskette A
+ Legacy Diskette B
+ Half On (All Errors, No Errors, All but Keyboard,, All but Diskette, All but Disk/key)
+ Primary Master/Slave, (has it's own sub menu)
+ Secondary Master/Slave, (has it's own sub menu)

1. Advanced BIOS
+Boot Virus Detection
+ CPU Level 1 Cache (Enable/Disable)
+ CPU Level 2 Cache (Enable/Disable)
+ Quick Power On Self Test (Enable/Disable)
+ First Boot Device (FDD, LS120, HDD-0/1/2/3, SCSI, CDROM, ZIP100, LAN, Disabled)
+ Second Boot Device (FDD, LS120, HDD-0/1/2/3, SCSI, CDROM, ZIP100, LAN, Disabled)
+ Third Boot Device (FDD, LS120, HDD-0/1/2/3, SCSI, CDROM, ZIP100, LAN, Disabled)
+ Boot Other Devices //Boot other devices that was not defined in the first 3.
+ Boot-up Flooy Seek (Enable/Disable)
+ Boot-up NumLock Status(ON/OFF)
+ Gate A20 Option (FAST/Normal)
+ APIC Mode (Enable/Disable)
+ OS/2 Onboard memory > 64MB (Enable/Disable)
+ Full Screen LOGO Show (Enable/Disable)
+ POST Complete Report (Enable/Disable)
+ Speech POST Reporter (Enable/Disable) // PC communicates its POST result via audio (human Speech, Star Trek style).

2. Advanced Chipset Features
+ CPU External Frequency
+ CPU Frequency Multiple Settings
+ CPU Frequency Multiple
+ System Performace (Optimal, Aggressive, user Defined)
+ CPU Interface (Optimal, Aggressive) //for Northbridge <> CPU link.
+ Memory Frequency (By SPD, Sync, 50% .. 200 %)
+ Resulting Frequency //Memory Frequency
+ Memory Timings (Optimal, Aggressive, user defined)
+ .. To many to list in regards to Memory Timings.
+ FSB Spread Spectrum (Enable/Disable)
+ AGP Spread Spectrum (Enable/Disable)
+ CPU Vcore Settings (Auto/Menu)
+ Graphic Aperture Size (xx MB) //for AGP gfx data.
+ AGP Frequency (Auto, 50..100 Mhz)
+ System BIOS Cacheable (Enable/Disable)
+ Video RAM Cacheable (Enable/Disable)
+ DDR Reference Voltage
+ AGP VDDQ Voltage
+ AGP 8X Support (Enable/Disable)
+ AGP Fast Write Capability (Enable/Disable).

(For stability/performance/overclocking, not quite "legacy support").
 
3. Integrated Peripherals
+ 19 Items. (too many to list)

4. Power Management Setup
+ 11 Items. (too many to list)

5. Pnp/PCI Configuration
+ 3 Items. //Manual mode presents user define IRQ assignments.

6. Secuity Menu (tried of typing)

Not including the built-in BIOS Flash software and ATA RAID setup BIOS screens. GA-7N400Pro2** has a similar features (too many to list).

**Illustrated as examples.

If your OS doesn't need that stuff because it can use drivers instead, there's no reason to have the BIOS handle it.

That would be OS centric options. What about non-OS centric options?

Why restrict the user's options?    

That's why I don't get the comment that the BIOS has FAT support. A BIOS shouldn't handle the filesystem, it only [should] read the boot sector.

Flash BIOS software is now integrated within some modern BIOS. Gigabyte’s Dual BIOS features are considered better compared with ASUS's version. Downloading their online manuals will show you their usability.

In a competitive market, X86 motherboard manufactures are installing plenty of features to gain ones desire for purchasing their products. This is good for the end consumers.    

I'm sure with rest of X86 motherboard manufactures (e.g. MSI, ABIT, AOpen, Epox and etc) will try to better that attempt.