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Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« on: September 05, 2012, 06:29:11 PM »
It doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but appears to really annoy a lot of classic Amiga and 64 users. Their market presence and advertising are almost non-existent. (But if you've ever visited their website or Facebook page, you'd swear they were BIGGER than Commodore ever was!)

But the reality is, (outside of this forum, in the real world), you've either heard of them, or you have not, and they don't seem to be doing a thing to change that status. (Honestly, the first I ever heard of them I was actually doing a Google search for mini-ITX boards for a cluster project, and for some reason their website popped up as one of the hits.)

So, what's the deal with them? Is it just another quick buck operation, trying to make whatever they can off the brand name?

One other question: We've all seem them come and go, from Escom to CUSA. This begs the question: Why has it been so difficult to do a successful reboot of this enterprise?

Post Scriptum: My attitude towards that thing they make (all of them) is almost the same as my attitude towards emulators, and I'll say no more on that subject!
:angryfire:
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 08:21:05 PM »
Good points all!

Here's a short-list attempt to answer my own question as to why Amiga/Commodore reboots fail:

1. Don't call it 'Amiga'.

2. Don't call your company 'Commodore'.

3. Don't decide it was the hardware OR the software - it was both. Choosing one over the other leads to more emulators (as if we need more) or travesties where PC guts are summarily shoved into Commodore cases. Neither of these schemes has (or will ever) bring Amiga innovation back to the marketplace.

4. Don't use Intel processors, OR AMD, instead, bring back Motorola (or, really, any new, little known, or innovative CPU manufacturer). Simply because the CPU market is stagnant, and could use more innovation driven by competition. And, of course, when you use Intel/AMD you basically are consigning your creation to the hell of Point Number 3 (see above.)

5. Dont' say 'it' (whatever 'it' is) can't be done. Say 'we haven't figured it out yet, but it can and will be done'. This type of innovation drove the C64  and the Amiga.

6. Screw what the market is doing right now! Even though PCs are extremely advanced, they're little more than appliances, lacking in the 'Fun and Innovation' Department.

7. Reverse emulation, by all means: The best way to get people to buy your new creation is for them to know that they can still run their software/games on it. So, by all means, emulate the hell out of PCs for that type of compatibility, and that's all.

8. Advertise, advertise, advertise!

9. Remember that, above all, the Amiga, and the Commodore 64 before it, were both introduced into a time and marketplace where everybody knew what computers lacked, and yet few seemed to know exactly how to address the problem. Here in the year 2012, the market is much more sophisticated technologically, but still lacking in lots of areas. The bar is certainly higher, but the goal remains the same - blow Wintels out of the technological waters with innovations, advancements and improvements they can't or won't make.

10. Don't call it Amiga or Commodore - these names are doomed to failure!
:hat::hat::hat::hat::hat::hat::hat:
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 09:23:31 PM »
Quote from: vox;706697
Effectivly they just abuse Linux now.

http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/distrowatch-analysis-vision-is-not-up-to-mint-13-maybe-fusion-will-be/
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/commodoreos-beta-9-is-mint-that-you-can-download-and-install-free-at-1ghz-pc-1gb/

And how do they respect MINT dem a steal, pirates and lowlifes!



——-


That's par for the course.

Linux seems to be the 'fall back' OS for everyone looking for a viable alternative to Windows, and also, a cheap one. (My personal tastes is that Linux only exists as a rebellion to the Windows regime. This in and of itself is not bad, or wrong, but when something is created solely for that type of response to something else, then real innovation suffers, since it doesn't seem to have been the original purpose for creating the thing. So, no, I am not a Linux fan for that reason, and a few others.)

"Different for difference sake" is not as good as "different because this new way is better".

Linux also has gained the somewhat dubious reputation of being the 'fast, easy, and cheap' way to go when you need an OS in your device, and you don't want to pay Billy Gates. That entire philosophy leaves a rather bad taste in my mouth, so its not surprising that CUSA would immediately jump on the bandwagon for their OS, after all. You can download it for free, do bare minimum (to no) tweaking, and voila!

Like many here, I enthusiastically sent them a slew of my best ideas, which were promptly ignored - not so much as an acknowledgement of ever having received anything from me. This small snub (not even an auto-responder?) seems to set the tone for what they want, and what they're after.

We won't have to worry about them much longer. In the immortal words of Bones, "I think he's dead, Jim." just about describes where they'll be this time next year, if not sooner.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 09:45:47 PM »
Quote from: lsmart;706702
Arguably CUSA has created a nice case for their C64 look alike. It`s hard to find a comparable box these days.

You can' t blame a company for selling Intel chips in their hardware and Linux is a good choice if you want to add branding on an otherwise free OS. So it all rational choices here.

Let' s not forget that in the world of business today, you don' t have to earn the right to use a name. You just have to pay for it and defend it. There is no real development done by CUSA, but apparently they hired some designers for the cases and don' t be mistaken:
"Skinning" a Linux distro to the extend they where doing requires dedication and a lot of work.


True, I like the cases, what original C64 user wouldn't? But, truthfully, there are a lot of C64 cases out there, I have a few myself.

And, I don't need to pay XXXX amount of dollars to have somebody else shove PC guts into one, I can do that myself, too. If a person were unsure just how to do this, Maximum PC already told how: (http://www.scribd.com/doc/101965893/Maximum-PC-Magazine-August-2012)

I can and do blame them for using Intel processors. :python:

I'm sure preparing the Linux distro was difficult - as a matter of fact, it was so hard, they seems to have half-a$$ed it, and screwed it all up!

In effect, this thing is something of a monstrosity.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2012, 04:32:00 AM »
The last thing the next gen of Amiga computers needs is a hand-me-down OS like Linux. It also could do without hand-me-down hardware. All innovative and new, from the motherboard up! THAT'S the only way to go.

As far as OSes go, Linux is quite possibly the first (or the last?) refuge of the lazy and unimaginative.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 05:05:25 AM »
I was just thinking that, actually, the system could have a core OS (or really, none at all), allowing the customer to decide what he/she/it wanted to run. That's one possible solution - quite possibly, the best one of all, even if I do say so myself, and I do!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 07:37:21 AM by MiAmigo »
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 10:45:32 PM »
Quote from: Darrin;707056
Nah, it isn't an OS for the lazy, it is an OS for the cheap.  That's why C-USA picked it, it was free!  :p

One thing that puzzles me is whether they have a legal obligation to provide support for their Linux OS in the same way that HP, Dell, etc have to support Windows.


I...would tend to agree 100% Many here go on about 'how good Linux looks' and how much you can 'tweak it' with wallpapers, screen-savers, and such. That's actually pretty shallow, like putting expensive make-up on a pig!

I'm more interested in INNOVATION, PERFORMANCE, and GROUND-BREAKING TECHNOLOGY, among a few things...

That's why I think that an ideal solution would actually provide maybe 2 or more platforms:

1. Pure Amiga Hardware and OS.
2. Amiga hardware, no OS.

That way, the Linux-havers can have their precious OS, while the rest of us can build a truly astonishing machine! :p
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 11:59:35 PM »
This bi-level scheme I propose (currently used by PCs, of course) would serve many purposes:

1. It would allow the new machine (I'm really trying to avoid calling it 'Amiga') to return to the market place, and, more importantly, to a lucrative niche, since buying a 'blank' one would allow the user to do whatever the heck he/she wanted to do with it.

2. This would generate income for...

3. A full return to the sustained development for the platform into the next level of its severely delayed evolution, resuming the same culture of extreme innovation that created it in the first place.

4. The culture can be niche, while the brand could go mainstream. There could be people who buy this thing who honestly never considering doing anything else on it but run Linux (or even Windows), or play old legacy games. This would keep the brand and the name in the market place, and also eventually make it possible...

5. ...for all the innovations in hardware, software, and general use to continue lucratively, and not fall over dead, like all the other attempted reboots. In some crucial way (which I'll save for another thread!) they've all made the same fatal mistakes, one of being forgetting what the Commodore experience was all about in the first place. (The C64 remains the best-selling computer of all time for a reason. If anyone with money who wants to start it up again can't remember why they will surely fail.)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 12:25:35 AM by MiAmigo »
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2012, 06:01:47 AM »
Let's just forget about Linux for the sake of this conversation. I am one of many that feel that the OS actually has no place on a 'real' Amiga-style platform.

A proper reboot and re-introduction of this technology practically DEMANDS its own OS for the flagship machine. (The so-called 'blank' machines of the line, however, can run whatever or nothing, anything from full-blown Windows, to even a 32-64 bit version of DOS).

Let's agree to drag Linux, (its merits and/or lack thereof) out of the conversation simply because its not what most of us want - which is a native Amiga hardware platform (no Intel guts!) running a native Amiga OS.

This is, of course, exactly opposite of what CUSA offers, Intel guts running Linux.

How is that an Amiga? Its not, its an expensive emulator, which, actually, either one of us could build ourselves a whole lot cheaper than what they're asking for. (Again, reference the link from my very first post that started this thread - the Maximum PC article on doing your own pc-in-a-commodore 64 chasis.)

I'll forget everything I currently feel about that venerable OS, and pretend that its the best OS in the world! (That was hard for me!) I would still have to say it has no place on a new Amiga platform.

I refuse to believe that the Human Race can't come up with another third OS solution to compete with Linux and Windows.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2012, 07:43:09 AM »
Quote from: kedawa;707135
The original OS for the A1000 didn't start out as an OS for Amiga.
I don't see why we should hold anything new to a higher standard.
QNX is perfectly adequate.


Wow. I totally and very civilly disagree, for more reason than I can list here! :python:
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2012, 03:43:57 PM »
Quote from: persia;707186
What needs to be done is to build a new AmigaOS on top of a Linux or BSD foundation à la OS X.


For the life of me, I still don't understand why Linux 'needs' to be a part  of the core system at all.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2012, 04:45:14 PM »
'Can't', 'won't', and 'don't' are delimiters, which I almost never use when discussing possible future projects, especially theoretical ones. If you start limiting yourself before you even start, what happens is you never start.

Another mistake is letting current market trends dictate innovation. That's not innovation that's emulation. And the market, of course, is fickle.

I get the impression that most people who participate in blogs like these are not your average users. Most of us build our own, program our own, and repair our own, not only these 20+ year old machines, but also our PCs, whatever OS they run.

I would also venture to guess that most of us don't wait for the vendors or computer companies to add new features to our machines - we do it ourselves whenever and where ever possible.

If enough of the right people can do that for their own machines, why would they limit themselves to 'what the mass market will allow' when considering a new project?

Consider: The Commodore family of computers is over 20 years old. Yet dozens of forums just like this one exist, and have existed continuously for all that time, with new members being added to each one everyday. Almost all of them are comprised of PCs users also running Windows and/or Linux. There's your target market right there, if anyone would care to look.

Why talk about 'competing' with Raspberry Pi? I actually have a number of them, and at no time since pre-ordering mine way back in February or March did I even consider that this device would compete with my existing home network to the point where it would supplant them. (By the way, its nothing but a really small PC.) I instead added it to my general interest and hardware pool. I didn't stop spending money on PCs, or stop using them. Why would I? Its 'and', not 'either or'. The 'market' is not one mass, homogeneous entity, it consists of a conglomeration of various types of users who often overlap with their interests and their dollars.

Pretending that Linux is the only way a new machine (or company built around it) can survive is like saying a). That no new OSes will ever exist after Windows and Linux, and we're basically stuck with them forever, and that b). Without Linux any and every new venture is totally lost (so thank God somebody created it, and finally, c). Nobody is smart enough, creative enough, or intuitive enough to create a totally new OS from scratch. I think the original founding fathers of the Amiga and the Commodore 64 would vehemently disagree.

Finally, I feel like I'm beating a dead (fill in your favorite punchline here!). In a previous post, I already pointed out that, to take full advantage of pre-concieved notions of 'market dollars', there could be a blank machine which would feed off of that market (and basically running whatever the customer wanted, be it Windows or Linux or DOS), along with the core Amiga machine, which would run pure Amiga-style hardware and OS software.

If its not against the forum rules, I'll quote one of my own previous posts:

This bi-level scheme I propose (currently used by PCs, of course) would serve many purposes:

1. It would allow the new machine (I'm really trying to avoid calling it 'Amiga') to return to the market place, and, more importantly, to a lucrative niche, since buying a 'blank' one would allow the user to do whatever the heck he/she wanted to do with it.

2. This would generate income for...

3. A full return to the sustained development for the platform into the next level of its severely delayed evolution, resuming the same culture of extreme innovation that created it in the first place.

4. The culture can be niche, while the brand could go mainstream. There could be people who buy this thing who honestly never considering doing anything else on it but run Linux (or even Windows), or play old legacy games. This would keep the brand and the name in the market place, and also eventually make it possible...

5. ...for all the innovations in hardware, software, and general use to continue lucratively, and not fall over dead, like all the other attempted reboots. In some crucial way (which I'll save for another thread!) they've all made the same fatal mistakes, one of being forgetting what the Commodore experience was all about in the first place. (The C64 remains the best-selling computer of all time for a reason. If anyone with money who wants to start it up again can't remember why they will surely fail.)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 05:31:00 PM by MiAmigo »
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2012, 06:23:38 PM »
Right now the market is stagnant - every new release is just a re-invention of a very old wheel.

We're stuck with 2 video card manufacturers, 2 processor makers (there's some overlap there with ATI/AMD), and two, maybe three OSes, if you count Apple stuff.

This must change. This will change. May as well be Amiga. If not Amiga, it will still happen, and it won't be more of the same. That defies the definition of the word 'change'.

The Amiga line was originally defined from that need for change and innovation. It can be so again.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2012, 10:21:29 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;707242
The raspberry pi's success shows that a small, low resource computer with different architecture than the mainstream can be very profitable.

The problem is, designing, prototyping and manufacturing costs a great deal, in
both time and resources. CUSA isn't going to actually invest a great deal of
time or resources into such a venture.

Dumping linux on a standard pc with CUSA wallpapers is alot easier. But go
try and source parts to build 100's of pcs the same way. Even that is not easy.


I...wouldn't call it a success just yet, more time is needed. They had some serious launch problems, and shipping was nightmarish. If these types of trends continue, they could go the way of the do-do bird...or Commodore.

And, again, its just a PC, a really small PC.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2012, 10:38:36 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;707258
No it isn't. It's an ARM SoC-based system, look it up. It is running Linux, but there is at least a RISC OS port underway, efforts to get AROS running are in progress (though last I checked it's still running it from a Linux base,) and who knows what else will happen in the future...


I actually have a couple sitting underneath my 'Next Project' pile. I was one of the first to sign up for pre-shipping at the beginning of the year. Who knows? If I ever get done repairing and tweaking my various PCs, notebooks, A2000s, A500s and 64s, I may even get to it. :hammer:

ON THE OTHER HAND, I still think that its possible to do a completely new roll-out of an alternative system, based on new hardware and software. Its going to happen, whether its an Amiga reboot, or not.

For every 10 people who say 'It can't be done', there are always a few who somehow make the impossible possible and they make it work. Most successful companies start out that way - by creating their own niche and then creating the demand.