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Author Topic: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License  (Read 29862 times)

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Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« on: November 08, 2017, 11:29:38 AM »
Quote from: Chucky;832792

At a1k I notice comments about FPU and MMU.  there IS demand.  and so far we users.. do NOT have FPU  and Gunnar really showed that he is NOT interested in implementing a MMU (or.-. MPU!) compatible to older software as his is SOO much better.  and it might be right..  still people asks for it. WANTING to do new software.  still "no.  my stuff is much better"


With regards to FPU; Upgrade your core to 2.7 WHEN it is released, and then pass judgement on the FPU implimentation. If you as a coder (or organizer) have spesific compiler/development issues with regards to the FPU internals, then listing spesific issues would be great.

With regards to MMU; the roadmap forward for MMU implimentation isnt clear to be honest. I remember when there where a big discussion regarding lack of FPU several months back. Gunnar eventually got tired of all the bickering from us (myself included), and just said "No FPU for you!" etc. Obviously he just kicked sands in our eyes cause we had the patience of children, not really accepting that WORK IN PROGRESS takes time. I see on ADA forum that the democoders say "Ive been working on this on and off for x months" etc. Designing a core probably takes time too, just saying.

So just cause MMU as Enforcer requires it is available or offered in Betatesting demostration, doesnt mean it wont surface eventually, just like the FPU did.

So I defintly would like to hear your detailed mapping of whats needed to be tweaked for the demoscene with regards to the FPU, ONCE Gold 2.7 with SoftFPU (with currently unknown level of hardFPU for V2).
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 11:53:35 AM »
Oh I get what you are saying from that point of view :)

Im a big fan of C64 demos, and its amazing what they can do with that limited hardware.
Or more recently Altair - Zener Drive https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei3IqD_zSkk

But take Kioea by Mad Wizards. A while back it was uploaded by ShK using the WIP core in July. It worked, but was laggy/buggy, and could make you cry watching it butcher that amazing demo; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Ye2c5K8GI

Now fast forward to October/November and it has improved massivly;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtCWfmnYOsk

Its really nice and smooth!

Then take the latest masterpiece from Haujobb and Ghostown - Beam Riders; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJsZXgSaELE

It requires 1260, and it will just flip its middlefinger to my Blizzard 1230 III.
I could run in WinUAE or buy 1260 (or can I without selling my liver?).
Enter Vampire.

As for the future development for the demoscene vs Vampire; You could still just develop within the constraints of 1260 code, not utilizing the extra features of the 68080, but get a bigger audience that aint watching 99% of the demos in Youtube (Of which Im one sadly).

So there doesnt need to be a "either or" situation. You can still limit yourself.

But again, I do understand the charm of platform constraints and challenging yourself.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 11:59:04 AM »
Quote from: Chucky;832801
well yes. mainly it is ocs or expanded A1200. long time since I saw anything "stock A1200" (too sad.. I like that platform)

but no.  Vampire 080 will not be a demosceneplatform when I talk to democoders:  they are simply not interested.. as then they could do shaders on a PC instead.. there is no sport in it. and it is what it is all about: it must be HARD to do.

there might be SOME 080 demo. as there was some PPC ones. but all will be as wild-entrys I guess.

actually  more and more are dumping the 060 awell.  it seems that OCS is the platform they more aim for.  they want TIGHTER limits.


Wanting to limit themselves, and see how far they can push any given hardware is a valid argument for sure.
Like some that do Textmode, DOS demos with software rendering etc on PC.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 12:07:22 PM »
Im sure you are not intrested to spend too much time trying to educate a code illiterate guy like me on this topic, but;

Does/might the added crap throw off timings and functionalities of current 680x0, or is it cause its an unknown variable as to how a routine will actually run?
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2017, 12:21:52 PM »
Quote from: Britelite;832806
There's always the risk of something not working as it should. I mean, even if I do most of my development using WinUAE, and pretty much know it emulates everything pretty good, I still do a lot of checking on actual hardware just to make sure.

But my main gripe is maybe more with the perceived focus of this whole project, where added features seem to be more important than true compatibility (with the 68060).


Fair enuff.

But the compability seems to be improving, based on the evolvement of how it runs Kioea for example. Hence Work In Progress :)
Seems to me that both compability and new "crappy" features is being tweaked as time passes. Ofcourse less "crap" would have increased the pace for the evolving of the compability, but it seems to me that they have found a  good balance, espesially after Jari Eskelinen decided to teach himself Assembly thru working on FEMU.
And since Jari decided to put effort into FPU related code, the Apollo Team diverted their attention to assist him, which includes HardFPU for v2, and it looks like full HardFPU on v4.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2017, 05:29:00 PM »
There are hostile/agressive people on any side of any discussion, but that doesnt equate that any given side is overall of that demeanor.

Stereotyping any group based on the loud minority isnt really productive.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 09:17:07 AM »
Quote from: kolla;832853
And that might very well have been the official wiki faq. I pointed out several times that it was incorrect, and it was changed several times too, but always leaving the impression that *some* FPU was right around the corner, even at times when Gunnar expressed on IRC that he was fed up and rather saw no FPU core on V2 at all.


Well, Im sure you know that Gunnar and the team got a roadmap of sorts they follow, but IF someone steps up and offer real assistance for a certain aspect, they will help out/tweak their roadmap.

Jari decided to do the SoftFPU, which set him apart from most of us; instead of just talking/posting on forums, he decided to DO something/code.
This spurred the team to help him, effectively Jari convinced them to change their roadmap cause he put REAL effort into enhancing the Apollo/Vampire expirience.

If YOU had done the same, Im sure they would reconsider/tweak their focus, but we that offer nothing but words cant expect them to upend their direction.

As for Chucky; You realise that the SoftFPU isnt a real problem IF Gunnar/team finds enough space on the V2 for the performance critical aspects to put on HardFPU. Gunnar did say to effect "dont count on HardFPU on v2, currently its internal build. Hopefully it pans out" etc. Im paraphrasing tho. The performance increase of Kioea is evidence of the improvements.

Why you seems to consciously ignore this aspect is puzzeling to me. Britelites comments makes sense to me. He is concerned with the POTENTIAL issues running routines on a real 060 vs 080. Thats a fair point, but since its Work In Progress those potential compability issues might be adressed.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 11:21:43 AM »
Ofcourse he code.

But towards the core?

I would have to re-read the thread a while back, but wasnt it FPU that he asked for, which is what Jari has contributed to.
It did finally arrive, but wether or not its to the precision he needed, he would have to answer.

Im fuzzy on the timeline, but I belive Jari entered the scene after alb42 expressed misgivings about how he was treated. I might be wrong. Im sure someone will take the time to check :)
And ofcourse; the SoftFPU+HardFPU combo is currently for the betatesters/Apollo Team only, so alb42 wouldnt have been able to fully utilize his programs potential.

As for hijacking the platform. Really? Are we now hoping that NO new efforts are going to have any measure of success, so we can complain about the lack of development for decades to come...? With the exceptions of those that already have their 060 cards with good masks for overclocking...? So we can spend 100s (1000s?) of dollars on mediator boards plus addons to get a somewhat modern usability.

As I said to Britelite; if you dont want to utilize all the added features of the Apollo/Vampire, ignore them, and code for 1260 in mind. Ofcourse Britelites counter to that was uncertainty of compability, and thats a fair argument, which can be taken care of.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 11:27:05 AM by Niding »
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2017, 11:42:44 AM »
De-factor standard? You saying that like its the only option. Ofcourse if you said that in Saudi Arabia regarding a decreet from the Saudi family, Im sure that the implication of discrimination your are putting forward would be valid.
But given that people are free to choose based on what the hardware/software delivers, the quality of Vampire/Apollo will decide wether or not it becomes what "most amigans" use.
By using hijacking, you are giving the platform a negative attribute that doesnt hold water.

Ofcourse, anyone that puts immense amounts of hours into a product hopes it succeed, which means alot of "amigans". But noone is being flogged publicly for not purchasing said platform.

Socially? Compared to what?
On the amigahardware scene its hard to find more accessable developers than the Apollo Team. I do love TF/PlasmaB thread/youtubes ofcourse, so Im not putting down any other developers efforts.
Does Gunnar have unlimited patience with people? No, and I dont always agree with his social interactions. But I havent put in the crazy amount of efforts into the Apollo Core, so its extremely easy for me to sit on my high horse and judge him when he looses his temper.
If I were in his shoes I would probably have lost it much quicker.

Ofcourse, if the current version of the core isnt accomodating what you need from it; fine, I can see that. But since its currently a moving target/work in progress; passing final judgement like some do based on the current specs is unfair.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2017, 12:54:44 PM »
Quote from: kolla;832874
I was responding to the patronizing "we" that Niding was using, obviously.


??
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2017, 05:11:35 PM »
@psxphill

V2 has limited space for FPU. It might be able to fit a full HardFPU, or it might not. Which is why Soft and HardFPU combo is intresting to provide owners of this version of Vampire this functionality.

V4 can supposedly fit the full HardFPU.

So how can Jaris work be a waste of time, when it gives the team a tool to compensate for the limited FPGA space.

@Acill

Who treated you badly on the facebook page? Some of the "Vampire loyalists" or the team itself? If you read my comment on Vampire forum and IRC, I have misgivings with both sides of the aisle with regards to bent/broken social antennas.
If its "loyalists", then you shouldnt really attribute the drama they drum up to the Team itself. Imho.

@Chucky

You already know they have a "roadmap", and only change that if someone (like Jari) joins in with their own efforts to contribute directly to the development. If you want them to divert from the "crap" maybe you should divert their attention by contributing something worthwhile, dragging their attention from their original roadmap? ;)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:13:56 PM by Niding »
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2017, 05:27:05 PM »
Quote
isn't it very VERY ironic that you need to add software to get functionality. from the team that say that the 68040/68060 is crap as you need 68040/68060 library to add functionality....

Does it matter how a functionality is added, as long as it works? If it causes problems, like Britelite is concerned about, then fine. Then its a valid point to raise. But given how the performance has increased in relativly short time, the refusal to accept the functionality is soon approaching pendatic at this point.


Quote
Contribute.. well  people asked for FPU.. I read it in forums.  result was threatening of ban etc as NOONE NEEDED THAT!.
so with that attitude.. you know that they are not interested of input.

You know, Jari never demanded or argued about anything when it came to the FPU. He just started coding, and asked for help. Instead of rolling with the "omg, FPU isnt included. USELESS!!". How is that constructive!?
I denfintly would become hostile after a while of such attitude if people offer nothing but insults over the hard work.

Quote
same here.. I have issues with lack of mmu etc.  gets reported as OFF TOPIC... meaning:  NOT INTERESTED!

Have you considered doing like Jari? Just start coding, and then ask for help?
Posting negatively about the lack of features (some which has been adressed in 2.7) for pages on forums does not count as contributions. And again, it would defintly piss me off to after months of it.

Quote
so. I contribute with a cheapass (bad) 060 cpucard for bigbox..  (currentlty working on Rev2.. will not be as cheapasscrap)
and I AM interested of input.. AND help..  doing amigastuff is not a one-man show..  maybe one man does it. but there is always a lot of input to take.

Good luck with your efforts, and I actually mean that :)
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 05:52:58 PM »
Quote from: Chucky;832890
well  they use the argument that the 080 is so much better as 040/060 lib is not needed..  while to add stuff peopoe ask for, they are doing the same (except here it is not a library.. but still software)


Well, given the fact that they have limited space on the V2, the capability of the 080 doesnt come into question, merely the space on the FPGA.
You could argue they have wasted space on new functionality, but thats a fundemental design choice going forward, in addition to an increasing degree of compability.
What remains in that regard will be seen at release of 2.7. And finally 3.0.

If that still doesnt suite you, fine, your own design, Jens, PlasmaB, MikeJ etc could cover those needs.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2017, 06:25:11 PM »
Quote from: Chucky;832893
Putting in new stuff that would REQUIRE software to be rewritten/recompiled but not stuff that oldf software already support?

and also. ironic enough. not putting in stuff that HELPS developing new software.  it is like.. like.  releasing a new cpuarchitecture for the amiga and not release programmingsoftware with it.. (PPC anyone?? :))

but I guess gunnar had this wet dream of MMX on the Amiga etc. so he completley forgot..  the rest of the worls..  yes.  his design..
but then.  WHY THE HYPE?  especially for stuff that will be "crap" even if they might be good?

well. yes. this IS repeating..


You dont need to recompile old software unless you want to utilize the full potential of the Vampire for that particular program.
And for the most part, Vampire will accelerate programs, and give the user more memory than has been the mainstream standard beyond relativly few that got into the higher end accelerators on the classic.

Again; you can just use the Vampire as a 1260 accelerator and ignore the "fluff".
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »
Ok.

Its been repeatedly pointed to that FPU will be implimented in 2.7.

Your refusal to accept any input tells me you are a waste of time to discuss with.

Im checking out of this thead.