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Offline The_Editor

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2004, 06:42:15 PM »
So whats wrong with Kde ?  I think its kewl.. And apparently,  so does my brother in law.  He's just spent over £1200 on pc "Bitz"  (Athlon 64 Msi mobo etc) and wants ME to install Debian on his new 200gb drive. Along with Win2Kpro   (he's dumping XP)

He was VERY impressed with the debian distro thats running on my A1
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Offline adolescent

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2004, 06:47:19 PM »
Linux (now) isn't as complicated as people make it out to be.  I'd expect any expert AmigaOS user to be able to function properly in a Linux environment.  Mac and Windows users that aren't familliar with editing configuration and startup files, or using the CLI might be a little lost.  

One thing to note though is Linux isn't some magic operating system that makes obsolete hardware new again.  It is possible to get decent hardware running with a modern distribution like Mandrake 9.2.  Just stop all of the unneccessary daemons and turn off the graphical enhancements (eye candy) and it'll run fine.
Time to move on.  Bye Amiga.org.  :(
 

Offline DavidF215

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2004, 06:49:04 PM »
Quote

pixie wrote:
I've installed Linux and a FreeBSD and from an user POV they are severly lacking in UI issues, badly!!! If not because some good programs namely for Internet and AmigaOS surelly kicks both of their arses!


Mi thowts on Lyenux, to. It mo blowtid than those ol winders. That ther purple hat ain't no betr. Mi winders bootn 1 horse lap round barels. Lyenux taken four o five laps ezy. Mi calf dun roped five tymes by tyme Lyenux dun bootn, to. Mi ol a1200 bootn fastr thn ropin and lapin both. That ther new Amiga gewie simpl. Fastest in texas it shur thang. Fastr than dropins too, if yu get what im sayin.

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Offline Jose

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2004, 06:50:38 PM »
I don't think, give some limitations of course, poeple that like computers should be that conserned about user friendliness.  They should be more concerned about the effectiveness, responsiveness, multitasking and that kind of stuff...
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Offline pixieTopic starter

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2004, 06:52:58 PM »
Everytime I see linux I believe more on Amiga..


Portugal goooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline pixieTopic starter

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2004, 07:00:41 PM »
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I don't think, give some limitations of course, poeple that like computers should be that conserned about user friendliness. They should be more concerned about the effectiveness, responsiveness, multitasking and that kind of stuff...


And how many people are we talkin about, 5%, 10%? The Joe User wants the things done, and easely and AmigaOS provides that...


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline Ilwrath

Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2004, 07:06:02 PM »
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And how many people are we talkin about, 5%, 10%? The Joe User wants the things done, and easely and AmigaOS provides that...


Actually, it's Windows, Mac, and Linux that provide what Joe User wants to get things done.  Especially when the things he wants to get done includes on-line banking, typing documents for work, etc...  It's the application support that is key to an OS, and right now, it's Windows, Mac, Linux.  In that order.  :-(

Lack of a modern browser and office suite kills AmigaOS before it has a chance.
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2004, 07:07:07 PM »
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pixie wrote:
Maybe I had bad luck on installation, but an OS shouldn't be so bloated... heck! I had about the same time or more then installing XP!
but my grief is on graphical interface

Your grief is on the graphical interface. So far I've seen lots of steam venting, but very little actual problems. So what are they?
Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.
 

Offline Ilwrath

Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2004, 07:19:46 PM »
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One thing to note though is Linux isn't some magic operating system that makes obsolete hardware new again. It is possible to get decent hardware running with a modern distribution like Mandrake 9.2. Just stop all of the unneccessary daemons and turn off the graphical enhancements (eye candy) and it'll run fine.


Yes... This isn't stated enough.  Lots of times the argument is used the Linux extends the useful life of hardware, etc.  What isn't mentioned is that you can't expect the latest features to run on that older hardware.  

For the most part, if you stack up, feature for feature, a Linux build against a Windows build, the Windows build will run faster.  The thing is, Linux can be trimmed down and lightened.  But, you do have to be a more advanced user to know and realize what you do and don't need to have a useful system.  

This makes the learning curve for starting on low-end hardware even harder.  Not only do you have to learn Linux, you have to try to learn it from a build that may be either too large or too small for your situation.  

The larger distros (Mandrake, Linspire, Fedora) are very easy to learn and use.  These have graphic installers and package managers that are quite a bit better than found in Windows.  But these distros need horsepower.  And lots of it.

The smaller distros (and the BSDs and whatnot) are much more difficult, if you're new to them.  But they can run faster, because they are a little trimmed back...  So they don't need quite as big a system...  It's all a trade-off....  And finding the sweet spot is tough.
 

Offline trochej

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2004, 07:55:02 PM »
Uhm. IIRC, Slackware has shorter install time than XP. And it runs less services than standard RH or Mandrake. If you dislike big and bloated GUIs, try FVWM. It is small and quite fast. There are ready to use perl scripts to make it act close to few other WM or even OSes.

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Offline Waccoon

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2004, 08:15:41 PM »
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I don't think AmigaOS is much more user friendly than Linux to someone who has never used it before.

Compared to a modern computer, no.  Compared to a 15-year-old UNIX system...  oh, man.  :-)

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Maybe I had bad luck on installation, but an OS shouldn't be so bloated... heck! I had about the same time or more then installing XP! but my grief is on graphical interface

It's the lack of standards and coordination that's the problem.  Linux is very widely standardized, but the UIs that people build on it are so fragmented, it's horrific.  Try installing Debian, then Mandrake.  HUGE difference, but it's basicly still the same OS (Linux and GNU).

Linux people just can't agree on a standard way of doing things, and they don't want to, either.  The whole idea of free software is doing whatever the hell you want... or almost.

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au contraire... Windows borrows many things from AmigaOS or use the same patterns of usage, wherever... the linux isn't and isn't exactly great on the new things...

I see very little AmigaOS in Windows.  Apple had a lot more respect for the Commodore Amiga than MS did.

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Sure, I could learn it all by "reading the {bleep}ing manual" and so on, but I dont want to read a manual for ages to learn how to do something as simple as use an operating system.

The best part is when they write the documentation in HTML and don't tell you how to start a text browser from the shell prompt on the emergency boot disk.  I always have to read Linux documentation on my Windows computer.  :)

I always wondered how you're supposed to install Linux from tarballs right off the Internet.  FTPing from a shell is such a pain.

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I use Mandrake 9.2. The gui is dog slow on my Pentium II 350 + 128 mb mem + ATI Radeon 9200!

KDE is an embarassment for Linux.  It's utlra-slow, heralds visuals instead of function, and works no better than any Windows toolkit.  It's a shame that GUI programmers are regarded as second-class in the programming world, but they do deserve it to a point.

One of these days I'll get around to writing my own GUI toolkit.

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Mac and Windows users that aren't familliar with editing configuration and startup files, or using the CLI might be a little lost.

The thing is, most basic things can be done in the control panel, and Windows is almost guarenteed to boot into a GUI.  If Linux has a problem, you'll be staring at a shell prompt with no clue where to start looking for the problem (and no web browser to log onto forums and ask questions).

Linux could really benefit from a GUI "safe mode".

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I don't think, give some limitations of course, poeple that like computers should be that conserned about user friendliness. They should be more concerned about the effectiveness, responsiveness, multitasking and that kind of stuff...

You'd think the term "user-friendly" would be considered so 80's, let alone 90's.  I remember when stores were telling me their "new" Windows 3.x systems were so user-friendly, and gave me funny looks when I mentioned the Amiga.

I also had a top-feed scanner that was user-friendly because it scanned automatically when you put a sheet of paper in it.  The problem was, it started scanning instantly, and if you didn't put the sheet in at a perfect 90 degree angle, it would crush the paper.  I would've preferred that they put a button on the scanner so I could at least tell it when the paper is set, and I'm READY for it to scan!  Needless to say, I now have a flatbed.  :-)

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And how many people are we talkin about, 5%, 10%?

Those numbers are useless.  It's said that 60% of the Internet runs on UNIX clones.  According to my web stats, about 1% of my visitors use Linux, 3-4% use Mac, and 95% use Windows.  I get about 8-10 gigs of traffic a month.

So far, an amazing 3 people visited my site with Amigas in the last couple years.  :-)

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For the most part, if you stack up, feature for feature, a Linux build against a Windows build, the Windows build will run faster.

Linux builds are so abstracted that practically anything UNIX will run.  The downside is that they are damn slow and built on ancient standards, and pretty much require you to do things the UNIX way whether you want to or not.

Windows is faster than Linux overall, but speed isn't everything.

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The larger distros (Mandrake, Linspire, Fedora) are very easy to learn and use. These have graphic installers and package managers that are quite a bit better than found in Windows. But these distros need horsepower. And lots of it.

I'll contest that.  I've never seen a package manager in those distros that worked properly.  You always have some damn dependency problem that gets in the way.  Also, people overlook bugs and obscure error messages.  Mandrake drives me insane with its endless barage of error messages (which just print errors and don't actually RESOLVE them), and the endless stream of bugs and glitches that really make Windows look stable by comparrison.

Linux doesn't crash, but the apps written for it are always questionable.  Many Linux distros these days are getting much sloppier and focus on graphics and beating Microsoft at thier own game.

MacOS should be an example of the perfect computer.  Use someone else's proven OS, and just build your own desktop.  I really wish XWindows would drop dead.

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There are ready to use perl scripts...

Ugh.  Please don't say the "p word".  Maybe what Larry Wall really wanted was to write his own shell.  What's so hard about opening the Perl interpreter, rather than trying so hard to properly escape one-liners?  Shells are for shell commands, not passing code to an external interpreter!

I also don't like that Perl has continuously been re-engineered to make it work like other languages.  Or, maybe I'm just pissed that so many Perl books do a sucky job of teaching people how to write actual perl code.  Doesn't anyone know how to use this language properly?
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2004, 08:44:57 PM »
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Waccoon wrote:
It's the lack of standards and coordination that's the problem.  Linux is very widely standardized, but the UIs that people build on it are so fragmented, it's horrific.  Try installing Debian, then Mandrake.  HUGE difference, but it's basicly still the same OS (Linux and GNU). Linux people just can't agree on a standard way of doing things, and they don't want to, either.  The whole idea of free software is doing whatever the hell you want.

You have a very good point there. However, there are times when I fervently wish people would stop doing that (whatever the hell they want) and work towards one, or at the most two different GUI toolkits. I think I have had to install five or six on my computer just to run all the applications I require to do my job. One doesn't do this, the other one doesn't do that, and it all amounts to confusing the heck out of me, not having standard ways of copy-pasting, invoking menus, and so forth, and wasting disk space. There is a richness in being able to customise things to your own liking, but as you said, on Linux it has become a nightmare. Windows most definitely has a big advantage there.

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KDE is an embarassment for Linux.  It's utlra-slow, heralds visuals instead of function, and works no better than any Windows toolkit.  It's a shame that GUI programmers are regarded as second-class in the programming world, but they do deserve it to a point.

Eh? I don't use KDE (nor Gnome), but this surprises me to some extent. I've always favoured KDE since it simply used what was available, and was not burdened by ideological open source arguments as is Gnome. (And as you undoubtedly know, that is Gnome's sole raison d'etre.) Can you please be a little more specific as to why KDE is slow and not very special, or point me to a site which explains things in more detail? Thanks!  

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One of these days I'll get around to writing my own GUI toolkit.

Please, no. And if you do, keep it for internal, private use, unless you can persuade people that your toolkit is really the best thing since sliced bread. :-)

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MacOS should be an example of the perfect computer.  Use someone else's proven OS, and just build your own desktop.  I really wish XWindows would drop dead.

I'm not very fond of the system either. It's unique in that you're able to use a graphics system remotely, but since that requires a network connection with a fair amount of bandwidth, I am beginning to question the sanity of keeping it alive too. Perhaps that is a worthy programming project? Developing a new graphics infrastructure for Linux? Much better than writing yet another toolkit if you ask me. :-)
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Offline adolescent

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2004, 08:47:02 PM »
Quote

Waccoon wrote:
I always wondered how you're supposed to install Linux from tarballs right off the Internet.


It's not very much fun, especially if you don't have any sort of a bootstrap kernel to get you started.  But, this is how it was done in the old days.  Boot up with a boot floppy (with limited kernel), then start compiling system specific stuff onto your manually preped hard drive.  Much fun, I only did it once on an old ALR SMP 486 server.  There were no precompiled kernels available for the architecture so I had to do my own.

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KDE is an embarassment for Linux.  It's utlra-slow, heralds visuals instead of function, and works no better than any Windows toolkit.  It's a shame that GUI programmers are regarded as second-class in the programming world, but they do deserve it to a point.

One of these days I'll get around to writing my own GUI toolkit.


I'm going to disagree with this.  KDE is a great environment and gets better with every revision.  I see nothing wrong with adding some visual flare to spice up the desktop.  And, since most distributions are using it as their standard, it will only get better.

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The thing is, most basic things can be done in the control panel, and Windows is almost guarenteed to boot into a GUI.  If Linux has a problem, you'll be staring at a shell prompt with no clue where to start looking for the problem (and no web browser to log onto forums and ask questions).


Wrong.  Windows can boot to safe mode for non critical errors, but for system critical failures (bad patch, driver, service, etc.) you have to use the recovery console, a (very limited) CLI.

In Linux I can run X in any runlevel or from a floppy if needed.  But, most fixes that would cause me not to be able to boot could be fixed easily from the command line.

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For the most part, if you stack up, feature for feature, a Linux build against a Windows build, the Windows build will run faster.



Windows is faster than Linux overall, but speed isn't everything.


I don't agree with this.  On the same hardware, running the same application, they should be relatively the same.  But, It really depends on the application.  (ie. I know for a fact that my machine can serve web pages via Apache faster than the Windows version.)

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I'll contest that.  I've never seen a package manager in those distros that worked properly.  You always have some damn dependency problem that gets in the way.  Also, people overlook bugs and obscure error messages.  Mandrake drives me insane with it's endless barage of error messages (which just print errors and don't actually RESOLVE them), and the endless stream of bugs and glitches that really make Windows look stable by comparrison.


YaST on SUSE has never given me a problem.  If there is a dependancy problem with a 3rd party (unsupported) app, then it's up to the user to get the file.  Otherwise, it solves dependencies just like it should.

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MacOS should be an example of the perfect computer.  Use someone else's proven OS, and just build your own desktop.  I really wish XWindows would drop dead.


I don't see your problem with XWindows really.  Can you explain more.
Time to move on.  Bye Amiga.org.  :(
 

Offline trochej

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2004, 08:47:04 PM »
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Man, Linux sucks big time.
I use Mandrake 9.2. The gui is dog slow on my Pentium II 350 + [cut]


    Well, if you run Mandrake, it's no wonder you think that Linux is bad for your health. :-D All those distributions that are hyped UserFriendly are usually overfeatured and bloated. Strength of Linux and it's distributions lays usually in ability to tailor it to ones needs. Unfortunately, it means that you have to get under the hood and tinker with it. If you don't want to, well, you get it for free. While I disagree with the argument, that crappy software is crappy when closed and not crappy when opened, still, it explains a little. :-)

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Offline Ilwrath

Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2004, 09:04:12 PM »
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I'll contest that. I've never seen a package manager in those distros that worked properly. You always have some damn dependency problem that gets in the way. Also, people overlook bugs and obscure error messages. Mandrake drives me insane with it's endless barage of error messages (which just print errors and don't actually RESOLVE them), and the endless stream of bugs and glitches that really make Windows look stable by comparrison.


Maybe I'm just blessed by the package manager gods.  Everyone except me claims that package managers have sent them on a route straight into dependency hell, never to be heard from again.  As strange as it sounds, I've used APT, URPMI, standard RPM, and others, sometimes together on the same system, even... And no problems, outside of occasionally having to "force" a package here and there to nudge things along.  APT with the Synaptic front-end is really about the coolest setup I've ever seen.

The last time I truely fell into dependency hell was messing with updating IRIX 6.5.12 on an SGI Octane.  (While there is something inherently cool about IRIX, it has lots of paths straight to hell on many things! eeeesh!)

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MacOS should be an example of the perfect computer. Use someone else's proven OS, and just build your own desktop. I really wish XWindows would drop dead.


Actually, I don't mind XWindows, itself, that much.  It's just the idea of using it for everything under the sun that really sucks.  I wish X would be de-emphasized, and a (single) good native desktop adopted for workstation installs.  (There's no reason XWindows can't work like it does on OS X.  Have a real local desktop and just load X when you need it, dump it when you don't...)
 

Offline trochej

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Re: men.... feck linux!
« Reply #29 from previous page: June 30, 2004, 09:23:14 PM »
Quote

[cut]
 Perhaps that is a worthy programming project? Developing a new graphics infrastructure for Linux? Much better than writing yet another toolkit if you ask me.


Weeks ago almost every single distribution I know dumped XWindow in favor of X.org.

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