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Author Topic: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?  (Read 6545 times)

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Offline Piru

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2004, 01:05:45 AM »
@that_punk_guy
Quote
And viewing angle, and colour fidelity...

Today's TFT's typically have around 160 degrees viewing angle. Don't know about some {bleep}ty TFTs, but mine has superb colours, much better than any CRT I've seen.

@amigamad
Quote
not for games they dont as the refresh rate is not as good

<= 20ms speed TFTs have no problems at all with games. Also see seer's comment.

Quote
also nearly all of them suffer from dead pixels

Mine has 1 dead pixel, and I need to look for it (it's really hard to spot, it took me few months to spot it in the first place). Usually cheap TFT's have possibility of more dead pixels, however.


Much of these problems are no issue today. Scaling, refresh rate, viewing angle, colour, contrast. Believe me, the complaints have been taken seriously and the issues have been addressed. Today's quality TFTs are really great, and beat CRTs in almost all aspects.
 

Offline odin

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2004, 01:20:12 AM »
The biggest obstacle is still the price of them. The gods know I want an LCD screen badly (well 3 of em, my desk is swamped with CRT's and keyboards and {bleep}).

Offline seer

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2004, 08:26:42 AM »
Mine has 1 dead pixel, and I need to look for it (it's really hard to spot, it took me few months to spot it in the first place).

Yes, only 1 dead pixel here, that's on a total of 3 TFT's.. Only see it when the screen is black, which isn't often  :-)
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Offline elendil

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2004, 09:36:02 AM »
I've only used laptop tft's, but all of those have sucked (and still do) compared to high quality crt monitors. It may be that all my laptops have been of sucky quality (and this new one certainly is).

One of my friends have a pretty lcd, which seems very nice, though. The point was just that tft's are certainly not exceptionally good in general. If you pick the right ones, then perhaps, if not, they're blurry, slow and horrible scalers.

Oh, and as much as you like your 'I can barely see my dead pixels', I really think that's something that needs addressing. I don't know what you use your tft's for, but I find it extremely annoying with a glowing green pixel whenever I try to do something with dark colours. My old laptop had seven dead pixels placed all around the screen, presumably from bumps or whatever. Very unacceptable.

But on the other hand, my crt's just died, so :)

Yeah yeah, hangover and all.

Sincerely,

-Kenneth Straarup.
 

Offline seer

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2004, 09:48:55 AM »
I don't know what you use your tft's for, but I find it extremely annoying with a glowing green pixel whenever I try to do something with dark colours.

playing Games (Space "sims", strategy, FPS, RPG.. etc etc), watch movies, browse Internet... whatever can be done.. :-)

If you pick the right ones, then perhaps, if not, they're blurry, slow and horrible scalers.

Sure, but that goes for CRT's as well, there are good and bad ones.

But on the other hand, my crt's just died, so :)

Eh.. Good for you :-D Now you can spend your hard earned cash again.

Yeah yeah, hangover and all.

Excuses excuses.. But you're forgiven.
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Offline Floid

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2004, 12:41:51 PM »
Quote

that_punk_guy wrote:
Quote
Piru wrote:
Generally TFT's beat CRT in all aspects, except price.


And viewing angle, and colour fidelity...

I wonder whatever happened to ThinCRT?
If ThinCRT are who I was thinking of,** they were/are one of many companies working on "FEDs," or Field-Emissive Displays.  These are basically a CRT with one gun per pixel, and you can find them in various expensive equipment... but they've been expensive, and there have been concerns about the materials used to create the electron guns.

It turns out carbon nanotubes are both cheap, easily produced (these days), and should last without ablating, so look for a sudden influx of cheap Taiwanese FEDs around the time OLED technologies take off.  (The only problem is, of course, nanotubes might be as bad as asbestos when ingested or inhaled... but the chemicals involved in other electronics manufacture aren't always that healthy either.)

For direct-view displays (because I can't remember everything up-and-coming in the projection category, and projectors still need boring high-wattage lamps, anyway), there are really only a few technologies bouncing around right now.  Everyone knows CRT and LCD, the 'new hotnesses' are:

OLED, Organic EL, Light-Emitting Polymer and related:  Globs of chemical on a substrate that give off their own light.  OLED is the big buzzword because chemical combinations that create light-emitting diodes are easy to drive and power-efficient; "electroluminescence" can refer to a number of things, but usually conjures the idea of a high-voltage/high-frequency requirement (like the Indiglo in your watch)...  I gather most of the light emitting polymers are LED-based anyway, and 'organic' may or may not be a misnomer for a particular design, because companies are constantly trying new substances to produce something that works.  The 'big battle' in that space seems to be between vapor-deposition (Kodak) and inkjet-printing (Epson).

'Folded' CRTs:  Please tell me I'm not hallucinating this one, as I can't remember the proper term for it if it does exist.  I could swear that, a few years back, RCA or someone figured out you could mount the electron gun off-center in a CRT, and use a 'mirror' of sorts to deflect the beam, creating a projection-TV arrangement within the tube itself, and allowing for a 'low profile' arrangement.  If these were produced, they seem to have gone out of favor pretty quick, being as big and heavy and hard to manufacture as a regular tube, without the price premium and true flatness of a plasma panel.

Plasma:  Cross a CRT with a fluorescent light.  No concerns about electron-gun manufacture, since it doesn't need 'em, but big and gas-filled and fragile.  Drive circuitry could probably be adapted to stimulate solid globs of EL phosphor as easily, but the full RGB gamut wasn't available in solid materials 10-15 years ago, and phosphor lifetimes are always a concern.  A little more complex than a FED, since each pixel is a sealed gas-filled cell, but the phosphor backing of each cell lights across its full area (like a fluorescent tube), so it scales well to make 'giant,' relatively bright displays.  As long as you don't let them burn in.  (Early color designs could seem a bit flickery, since, like a TFT LCD, they have to modulate the pixels rapidly to create the illusion of varying luminance; if you haven't seen a recent $10,000 version, they now look like giant, bright LCDs, but without uneven backlighting, and with a complete viewing angle.)

FEDs: As mentioned above, an if-only that might be coming, like color LCDs were a dream in the 1980s.  Probably not worth making wall-sized displays out of, but CRT tech is well-established and can mostly be reapplied here, and you get all the sharpness and direct-addressing of a fixed-resolution panel.  If OLED takes a while to get cheap, these could take the ten-to-20something-inch desktop-panel market back from LCD.  Upshots: Flat panels, less need for leaded glass and shielding (since each gun is right next to the phosphor, no need to fire electrons with quite so much energy), no magnetic susceptibility (since there's no magnetic steering), pixel-perfect accuracy (no more convergence/mask-alignment woes), probably no dead pixels, or at least none stuck on, no worries about blue fading any more than with a CRT...  Downsides: Still glass, still a bit fragile, still likely to build up a dust-attracting charge... but think about how much of a CRT right now is just shipping cost, and at the desktop sizes the tech is good for, the fragility should be no more an issue than it is with shipping china from, er, China.  (Personal opinion: I still think inkjetted OLED will be cheaper, but I also thought CD burners would forever be expensive and replaced with something sane.)*

EPaper: Reflective technology; either little electrically charged balls trapped in some sort of liquid (original 'epaper') or globs of colored oil and water (Phillips)... High-contrast, hopefully-cheap-and-high-DPI displays, roughly mimicking ink on paper.  But remember to bring your book light, unless they adapt the oil-based tech to allow backlighting.  Nobody's talking about how to use these to  display motion, yet; Sony's just launched an eBook novelty using the monochrome version.  Biggest upshot, at least in the monochrome incarnation: image stays when power's removed.

SRAM LCD: Speaking of low-power, this is a subtle variation on LCD I haven't heard much about recently; someone figured out how to build a LCD a while back where each TFT transistor somehow acts as a SRAM cell.  Benefits: Display state preserved with just a trickle of power, if any at all, and the screen can act as its own framebuffer... but only of use to small devices.  For all I know, they're already using this somewhere.

Finally, your reward for having read this far...

Iridigm:  The only company doing anything marginally surprising, though they were actually around before Phillips announced their color oil-drop epaper, which will probably undercut them.  Reflective displays using an interference principle, with tons of tiny electromechanical subpixels modulating the reflected light itself.  Benefits:  Low risk of dead 'pixels' ruining your day, unless a whole pixel's worth of practically invisible subpixels go at once; no fading, presumably fast-enough response, low-power...  Downsides:  Still needs an external light source, and who's going to care when flexible, practically-disposable OLED and epaper solutions get cheap, while monochrome LCDs are still 'good enough' for eParkingMeters?  (Personal opinion:  I want siding made of this stuff.)

---

*If you haven't noticed, not only are burners cheap now, but hard drives themselves have already moved towards zoned recording, possibly even zoned-spirals.  Beware Floid's sense of what's sane, though he's already started compensating himself.

**Edit:  They are, though the company's actually Candescent.  I guess the nanotube idea isn't *that* recent a development as regards FEDs, so they could be using them as much as vapor-deposited diamond or whatever the last big ideas were in that space... the big breakthrough seems to be that there are now cheap-and-scalable techniques for actually putting nanotubes where you want them on an industrial basis.

YetAnotherEdit:  And while I could've sworn I was reading about some sort of FED-related nanotube breakthrough this month, I could equally be thinking of this article, which promised some sort of self-assembling lattice without the involvement of carbon.
 

Offline elendil

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2004, 03:49:14 PM »
Quote

seer wrote:
I don't know what you use your tft's for, but I find it extremely annoying with a glowing green pixel whenever I try to do something with dark colours.

playing Games (Space "sims", strategy, FPS, RPG.. etc etc), watch movies, browse Internet... whatever can be done.. :-)

If you pick the right ones, then perhaps, if not, they're blurry, slow and horrible scalers.

Sure, but that goes for CRT's as well, there are good and bad ones.

But on the other hand, my crt's just died, so :)

Eh.. Good for you :-D Now you can spend your hard earned cash again.

Yeah yeah, hangover and all.

Excuses excuses.. But you're forgiven.


Heh, thanks :)

What I meant with the post (I think) was that tft displays are not necessarily God's gift to nerds. I know you can get good tft displays, and as mentioned I've seen a good one in action, but I've never seen a good one on a laptop (but I've never seen a really expensive laptop anyway), and I've seen lots of crappy tft screens.

I know there's lots of crappy crt screen too, but they rarely have dead pixels, bad scaling or too slow refresh (energy dissipation, whatever).

With my budget I'd most certainly get myself another crt monitor if I cannot repair this one (someone says it's probably not that irreplaceable part that's damaged).

So basically these long, non-informative posts are just here to say I agree with Piru (I think it was) saying the only negative aspect of tft is the price. If you want tft you want the expensive ones.

Sorry for the nonsense. I've sobered up properly meanwhile, though :)

Sincerely,

-Kenneth Straarup.
 

Offline seer

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2004, 06:21:05 PM »
Heh, thanks :)

No problem, you're welcome. :-)

but I've never seen a good one on a laptop

Well, I can agree here a bit.. Tho I did see a laptop last week with a great TFT display (could go up to 1600*1200 and that was a 15" screen I think)..

If you want tft you want the expensive ones.

Sure, mine cost me a fortune. Another "problem" is that TFT technoloy advances and that does bring prices of older TFT's down, but it seems like the older screens are discontinued to fast to get realy cheap TFT's meaning the TFT's stay at a certain price range..
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Offline HopperJF

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2004, 07:52:32 PM »
Quote

seer wrote:
I'm on the TFT monitor side.. (The Bright Side ;-))



Bright? If you're at the exact right angle perhaps, and not playing Quake  :lol:
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Offline HyperspeedTopic starter

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2004, 08:58:22 PM »
Ohwayz look on tha bwight soyd of loyf!

So what would Quake 1 look like on an LCD monitor? All those gothic
textures are hard enough to make out with the lights switched off let
alone in the daytime.

Would a screen filter improve the contrast of an LCD?

I think NEC and Philips screens are appealing because those companies
know how to make a good multiscan CRT so I assume they have more
accomodating technology expertise.

Noone has responded to my original thought though - how would 15Khz
AGA fare on a LCD TV?

^ :-) ^
 

Offline HopperJF

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2004, 09:25:15 PM »
Well I'm sure someone on here is mad enough to find out

*looks around*

 8-)
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Offline Holley

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2004, 11:30:17 PM »
Quake and Quake2 look just fine on my old Work laptop (Samsung GT9000, 2 1/2 years old, 1400x1050 15" screen). DVDs look just fine, too.  I saw a cheap LCD TV today and the quality was just rubbish, though.

Contrast and definition are just fine, apart from when working with photo editing where very light shades don't show right, or when playing low res stuff (though it's not that bad).

On my Miggy I use a 15" Sony Trinitron CRT that looks great, but it cost £200 new - considerably more than most 15" TFTs these days ;-)
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Offline elendil

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2004, 04:43:39 PM »
Quote


but I've never seen a good one on a laptop

Well, I can agree here a bit.. Tho I did see a laptop last week with a great TFT display (could go up to 1600*1200 and that was a 15" screen I think)..

If you want tft you want the expensive ones.

Sure, mine cost me a fortune. Another "problem" is that TFT technoloy advances and that does bring prices of older TFT's down, but it seems like the older screens are discontinued to fast to get realy cheap TFT's meaning the TFT's stay at a certain price range..


That sounds like a decent laptop tft. The ones I see, apart from doing 1024x768 max, all fade in comparison to my sony trinitron 17" crt (when I get it repaired, of course :)) - even the ibook tft even though that's much better than the pc laptop tft's I've seen.

And that price thing is probably kind of like laptops, though they've gotten lots cheaper recently. They don't really get cheaper, just better (or more feature-rich if one likes), which is really annoying. I'd like a 100 dollar laptop that I could use for writing a bit of code or text documents on and nothing else. Or for a cheap, little fileserver or something.

Sincerely,

-Kenneth Straarup.
 

Offline Holley

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2004, 08:34:25 PM »
The lowest res I've seen a 15" TFT capable of in the last year has been 1280x1024.  I think some people on here have been looking at old or very very cheap monitors (1280x1024 Samsungs cost £135 ATM - not that much!).
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Offline elendil

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2004, 09:30:18 PM »
To put it in perspective this laptop is almost three months old, and crappy 1024x768 is all it can do. And it's 15" too :)

Sincerely,

-Kenneth Straarup.
 

Offline minator

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Re: Isn't it about time we had a good thread on LCD monitors?
« Reply #29 from previous page: June 27, 2004, 10:14:28 PM »
My laptop is almost 1 month old and does the same resolution - but it's a 12" screeen, it's also got a slightly dud pixel but I'm using it on an external CRT so I'm not too worried :-D

--

CRT Vs LCD
I believe CRTs are still used for colour accuracy, artists / designers still use CRTs even today.

Otherwise I think LCDs have definately caught up with CRTs and have the advantage of no flicker.

For TVs LCDs are so good that they show the artifacts in digital TV / DVDs much more than CRT TVs.  It's so bad in fact that they are putting low pass filters in to degrade the screens so it's not so noticable!


I'd like to get an LCD as a main display sometime, the good ones seem to have come down in price over the last year so you're talking about 1200€ for a for a 21" Iiyama rather then 2500€.

--

OLED
I think the problem with these at the moment is lifetime, it's only something like 18 months IIRC.

Plasma TVs have the same problem but they'll at least last a few years.

Folded CRTs
Sinclair did one of these in the late 70s / early 80s for a little TV set.

--

Amiga on LCD TV
Should work, curious to see the results.  Might not like the higher resolutions though (but you never know...).