Anti C++ sentiment?

[DaveP]

Folks

I have noticed a disturbing increase in the number of items I have read which dismiss C++ out of hand for esosteric reasons.

I guess this comes from the fact that most system programming interfaces are inherently procedural but probably also for the fact that if you do not understand the underlying semantics of C++ ( e.g. when to use virtual, what a copy constructor does ) then you are swimming in a very very big pond.

I happen to like many languages and have no particular C++ bent ( although pretty experienced and classified as "expert" by the skills board at my company - but then so is the vending machine repair guy ) but what exactly is it that people don't like?

I was told that the "MorphOS community hate C++" which seemed a bizzarre statement so can someone confirm/deny any particular clustering of anti-C++ sentiment there?

I get told a lot that Java is superior to C++ which I find amusing given how much of Java is implemented in C++ and is in fact a "crippled" C++ with a garbage collection thread ( easy to implement in C++ even if you don't implement smart/auto-pointers )?

What is behind the phobic reaction or am I seeing more there than I need to?

To me C++ is a fine language, it is a language for creating further dialects of C++ as much as for creating tools.

Thoughts? Comments or just so much philosophical bollards?

[Darken]

That's so strange to read in 2003 that people still don't like C++ and prefer C.

Several years ago, I used to program in C only, and had silly  misconceptions about C++. I thought it was a super high level hidding everything to the programmer and I used to hate it.

Well,  now I do know how to code in C++, and I just have to say that I love this language. The "C++" is a real good name : C language, but with cool extensions which let you design stuff more easilly. And I can't put up with C anymore  :-D

It's so great to maintain a clean  object oriented program coded in C++.  BeOS and some other OS projects show a  very good C++ programing interface. Reading code made for those OS is a real pleasure.

I think the "anti C++" statement just come from people who don't really know C++ (just as me when I used to know C only). Moreover most people around me who used to code in C only and who learnt C++, just can't come back to C anymore.

[iamaboringperson]

i love C++!

What is behind the phobic reaction or am I seeing more there than I need to?

probably the steep learning curve.
possibly also the feer it might be less efficient than C, i once thought that until i read some book on c++ efficiency or a c++ faq or somthing, could be because of its seemingly highrachical design
perhaps also people arent used to thinking OO, procedual is easy, but for some OO is bit daugnting?

in relation to the amiga, i feel that i dont use C++ so often because there is no native amigaos support for it, if there was somthing a bit more like borland C++ builder, i would definently use it more!
amigaos includes etc... need to be re-done in a C++ OOP way... that would definently get more support
 :-)

[DaveP]

"probably the steep learning curve."

Thats true, but people can learn a useful subset
like they tend to do with other languages.

I mean obvious concepts are:

BASIC
types and variables
conditionals and loops
i/o
structures

MEDIUM
class
constructor
destructor
methods
instance variables

Even without data-hiding inheritance, references, polymorphism you have a powerful structure there to get going with.

Anyway the first AmigaBOOK for publication is ready and we are submitting it to Addison Wesley Monday!


Whats the subject? C++ for Amiga Users.

[iamaboringperson]

Anyway the first AmigaBOOK for publication is ready and we are submitting it to Addison Wesley Monday!

what, an actual hardcopy book!
wow! if i found a NEW amiga specific programming book i would probably buy it immediatly!
especialy if it were about C++ on the amiga!
 :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-)  :-)  :-)

[Eric_Z]

@ DaveP

"...Anyway the first AmigaBOOK for publication is ready and we are submitting it to Addison Wesley Monday!..."

That's great  but who are "we" (you and who?) ?

[DaveP]

Well they have to send it to a "reader" first, then do sample manuscripts for checking by us but yes, the idea has been accepted in principle.

Keep your fingers crossed for us! If publishing doesn't happen then it will be available in free PDF,
BookManager, PS and HTML form on AmigaBooks.

[DaveP]

@Eric

Does the name Mark Roberts mean anything to you?

[iamaboringperson]

DaveP wrote:
Well they have to send it to a "reader" first, then do sample manuscripts for checking by us but yes, the idea has been accepted in principle.

Keep your fingers crossed for us! If publishing doesn't happen then it will be available in free PDF,
BookManager, PS and HTML form on AmigaBooks.

i hope they do publish it! i have all the ARKRMS 3rd edition, + some of the 2nd edition! now i need some decent documentation for all the new features

what exactly will be covered in the book?
how in depth will the amiga stuff be?
what libraries/devices?

[Eric_Z]

@DaveP

Well now it does mean something to me.

[DaveP]

"what exactly will be covered in the book?"
How to use StormC, HiSoft C++, GCC to build executables, libraries and more.
C++ introduction.
C++ recommended design patterns ( where the auto-pointer code is also republished from the other topic ).
Taking advantage of the Amiga

how in depth will the amiga stuff be?
How to implement:
    multi-tasking ( exec tasks, dos processes, signals etc )
   message passing
   intuition for newbies
   basic graphical operations
   writing a commodity
   app icons and other strange stuff
   interacting the user
   TCP/IP networking
   security
   device I/O

what libraries/devices
   oh man. :-D Not everything by a long way but enough to get going!

We will not be allowed to publish under the name "amigabook" because it is considered a trademark problem. So authors full names.

[cycloid]

i use m$ visual C++ on the PC for game coding and it's bloody nice being able to browse through your class tree and go to the playerclass->Killed( attacker ) type function just by clicking on it!

if there was (or will be)  something like that (or even borlandey) for A1 then i'd be forking out big bucks for it. ASAP!

as for C vs C++ i think that people should try both, i have no trouble going back and forth. infact i recently just started playing witht the Quake 2 source, it's C and a bit oddly implimented , but i rather like it! But then i had to convert my class based water simulation code into C and hook that in, took a while :-)

[EntilZha]

> That's so strange to read in 2003 that people still don't like C++ and prefer C.

Hey, if you look at the Windows programming community, they prefer VisualBasic over C

Most people still fall for the myth that C++ adds too much overhead.

[EntilZha]

> i love C++!

Me too.

> perhaps also people arent used to thinking OO, procedual is easy, but for some OO is bit daugnting?

The way C++ handles OO (i.e. structures with data and functions in one entity) is really more of a procedural approach than an OO approach.. That's why I think C++ is in fact relatively easy to learn when you know C...

> amigaos includes etc... need to be re-done in a C++ OOP way... that would definently get more support

The problem with C++ in the system is that it can't be done without locking out other languages, i.e. if you have a C++ interface, you can't use it from C without troubles..

Plus, you have the non-standardized way that name mangling and object layout is handled...

[csirac_]

@cycloid:

Check out Anjuta on Linux. I hate MSVC The only real feature I would like in Anjuta that MSVC has is the class/method suggestion drop-down box-as-you-go sorta thing. But Anjuta absolutely rocks in every other respect!

BTW how does such an "industry standard" tool have such ABSOLUTE ####e printing support??! My options are, after clicking "print" from the file menu: OK, Cancel. WTF? I wanted to print some code syntax highlighted with page numbers and filename in the header. I ended up using the freely available Bloodshed DEV-C++ package for WIN32 (I didn't have access to my Linux box at the time).

I would love to learn C++ properly but haven't got around to it... think I might do a wxWindows project. wxWindows looks cool; I think it needs an AmigaOS4 port

- Paul