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AuthorTopic: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?  (Read 2322 times)

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Offline DaveP

Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« on: January 20, 2003, 11:26:54 AM »
On the Genesi needs you and RE:Genesi needs... threads Frodon
( respected, well spoken MorphOS user ) suggests that on threads
concerning Genesi, those that do not wish to follow the Genesi
route or have no interest in Genesi should steer clear - regardless
of whether you have an opinion or not.

I do not like this idea because of the following:

1. I do not see Frodon or others on threads concerning Amiga Inc
subjects telling their compadres that if they have no interest
in Amiga Inc, Hyperion or Eyetechs progress to stop posting.

2. I think if you have an opinion on a subject, even if it is not
supportive of the party line you should be able to express it.

3. Genesi has a lot to do with the Amiga and Amiga Inc, firstly
not a post goes by from Genesi that does not have something to
say ( a salvo to fire ) about Amiga Inc. Secondly they are producing
and selling ( whatever the current supply status ) a clone
of AmigaOS which many Amiga users see as the future. So all
Amiga users have a potential interest.

My take is that Frodon and others use this primarily to stifle debate, but
then I am well known for being pretty cynical.

What do others think, should we segregate in the fashion that
Frodon and others believe? If you do agree with segregation
what topics should be off limits to Genesi fans, Amiga Inc fans, those
caught in the middle, Amithlon fans, Amiga Forever fans, etc?
Hate figure. :lol:
 

Offline Warface

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2003, 11:41:39 AM »
"FREEDOM OF SPEECH!"
 

Offline DaveP

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2003, 11:42:45 AM »
@Warface

Can you tell me what I wrote that contradicted freedom of speech?

Hate figure. :lol:
 

Offline Warface

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2003, 11:43:46 AM »
Nothing, it was my bad english. I do apologise, and corrected my mistake. (accidentally you've answered in the 5-10 secs I realized what I wrote)
 

Offline DaveP

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2003, 11:46:28 AM »
@Warface

I have a capacity for typing sentences which have the opposite
meaning from what I intended so I just wanted to make sure, no problem :-)
Hate figure. :lol:
 

Offline Warface

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2003, 11:50:12 AM »
I'm really hasty at times, and rarely using the preview button... Bad habits I fear. :-)
 

Offline zudobug

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2003, 11:52:36 AM »
"should we segregate in the fashion that
Frodon and others believe?"

Not all the time. I like the debates and disagreements when they don't get out of hand.  But that "good and bad" thread made a very interesting read and it was a nice change.  I think people should be allowed to request (from time to time) that no flames/abuse or opposing opinions are posted so that the people participating in the thread can concentrate on asking/answering serious on-topic questions, instead of defending themselves and their opinions and fighting back the attacks.

Not all the time tho... It would get very boring wouldn't it?

-zudo

(edits - spelling errors)
Realtime amiga.org chatting on irc.synirc.net - #amiga.org and #coffeehouse
 

  • Guest
Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2003, 11:57:07 AM »
1) No subjects are, nor should they be, off-limits to any persons.  Well that's not entirely true.  We don't allow adult-oriented conversation, but in the context of this conversation it is.

I think his point is simply that if something (in this case MorphOS) doesn't interest you, then you probably should just leave it alone.  If YOU go into a thread about a product you have no interest in, then why are you doing it if not to stir up trouble and flames?

On the other hand, product X might be interesting to other site members here, even if not to you, so why should we hide from it or ban it's mention simply because it offends you?

2) Is there a particular reason that you chose to bring this up other than to spark more debates and possible flame war?

3) I don't think I see anything wrong with stifling a debate (read: flame war) which shouldn't exist in the first place.  

You people (members in general) have now gotten so cynical, so arbitrary, and so suspicious of anything any more that there is NOTHING that ANYONE could announce which would not draw fire from one direction or another.

Until you all grow up and stop thinking of the Amiga as "life or death" (yes, there is life outside of the Amiga), then I still maintain that Bill McEwen could come out here and say "Free AmigaOnes with complete OS4 packs for all Amiga.org members as an apology for the wait" and you guys would still bitch and moan.   I've seen it for 8 years now and it's only gotten worse.

For example;

Bill McEwen makes "smoke announcements"
- "you" bitch because there is no real substance.

Amiga Inc announces dates for stuff
- "you" bitch because it's not fast enough, or they miss their date, regardless of reason (whether explained or not).

Amiga Inc stops talking
- "you" bitch because they're not cuddling your hand with information and allowing you into their inner-circle.

Therein lies the problem.  You guys still do not understand that "we" do not own the Amiga platform, despite the years of real and apparent neglect by both past and present owners.  You also are absolutely petrified of any real, alternative solutions to the one coming from "the company".

There is NO reason for this fear, or the hatred which is commonly displayed here.  

- If you want an "Amiga", buy "an Amiga" (debatable disctinction for me)

- If MorphOS interests you, buy a Pegasos.

It's that flipping simple and there is no need for you to get wound up in hatred over which is better.  The only thing you're really pissed over is the whole licensing issue anyway.  

If, as Bill Buck contends -- I am not willing to call him a liar at this point -- , the Pegasos and MorphOS *ARE* licensed, either through Gateway (the patent and trademark owners) or through Amiga Inc (licensors of the Gateway trademarks), then isn't having more than one "Amiga" solution better for everyone?

Note: the licensing issue for both Amiga Inc and Genesi are very unclear as to who really "owns" what and who is "licensed" for what through whom.  

Something you guys ALWAYS seem to forget is that Gateway still owns the patents/trademarks/etc and they can still (to the best of my understanding) license it out to multiple companies if they choose.  I might be wrong, who knows, but since no one is REALLY clarifying anything at this point and AI isn't speaking.....  Take it for what you will.
 

Offline DaveP

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2003, 12:24:24 PM »
Quote

Wayne wrote:
1) No subjects are, nor should they be, off-limits to any persons.  Well that's not entirely true.  We don't allow adult-oriented conversation, but in the context of this conversation it is.

Good.

Quote

2) Is there a particular reason that you chose to bring this up other than to spark more debates and possible flame war?

To get it out into the open and debated on its own thread ( as you advised )
rather than cloud other threads with it. Hopefully we can have a sensible
debate about this.

Quote

3) I don't think I see anything wrong with stifling a debate (read: flame war) which shouldn't exist in the first place.  

But who is to judge what should and should not exist as a debate? Are you
going to help direct things there? Flamewars come and flamewars
go, and I think you should try and seperate the flamewar from the
debate in your response.

Debate degenerates into flamewar most often when one tries
to stifle the debate.

Quote

You people (members in general) have now gotten so cynical, so arbitrary, and so suspicious of anything any more that there is NOTHING that ANYONE could announce which would not draw fire from one direction or another.

Well that may be true about "you people" or it may not be.

Quote

Until you all grow up and stop thinking of the Amiga as "life or death" (yes, there is life outside of the Amiga), then I still maintain that Bill McEwen could come out here and say "Free AmigaOnes with complete OS4 packs for all Amiga.org members as an apology for the wait" and you guys would still bitch and moan.   I've seen it for 8 years now and it's only gotten worse.

Quite, but then would segregation help or hinder? Would stifling the
debate help or hinder? What do you reckon? It's all very
well making a general point about cynicism but does it have
a bearing on this issue or not? I can't draw the line from
what you have written so I am asking.

snip examples.

Quote

Therein lies the problem.  You guys still do not understand that "we" do not own the Amiga platform, despite the years of real and apparent neglect by both past and present owners.  You also are absolutely petrified of any real, alternative solutions to the one coming from "the company".

I don't think I own it, have I ever said I did? I am not afraid
or petrified of competition.. what for? The Amiga market is so
tiny that everything is its competitor. Genesi is a clone, an alternative
fine - but within your argument there is nothing that sayes
that we should stop talking or is there?

Quote

It's that flipping simple and there is no need for you to get wound up in hatred over which is better.  The only thing you're really pissed over is the whole licensing issue anyway.  

Did I say anything about which or which isn't better? No. Im
not pissed off about the licensing issue - is anyone apart from
Seehund REALLY bothered? Surely that is a topic for a seperate
thread.

*shrug* I think you are way off topic Wayne but maybe you
can clear that up in the next post.
Hate figure. :lol:
 

  • Guest
Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2003, 12:32:37 PM »
What's all this talk about segregation?
I thought that was outlawed a long time ago.

Integration is the only way to go, mate.
Wished Martin Luther were here...

He'd set you straight!     :)
 

  • Guest
Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2003, 12:42:21 PM »
Note edited text by me above (while you were replying apparently)
Quote
I think his point is simply that if something (in this case MorphOS) doesn't interest you, then you probably should just leave it alone. If YOU go into a thread about a product you have no interest in, then why are you doing it if not to stir up trouble and flames?

On the other hand, product X might be interesting to other site members here, even if not to you, so why should we hide from it or ban it's mention simply because it offends you?


To be honest, I might indeed be off-topic here, or maybe after this weekend of all the flaming, I'm just overzealous about putting out smoking cinders.  Who knows?  Who can really blame me? :-)

My only point here really is that this site should not be limited to discussions about "officially sanctified" solutions, simply because company X has LICENSED (they do not own) some trademarks.  

This "so-called community" is affected by all these developments, and all these alternative platforms.  As such, I would feel less than open if I tried to stifle or otherwise prohibit the discussions of said alternatives here.  I am simply -- yet overwhelmingly -- frustrated by the continual lack of maturity when it comes to the acceptance and discussion of these certain topics.  

I openly admit that some of the attitudes of some of the players involved have really pissed a few people off.  Keep in mind though that no matter which Bill you're talking about, there has been mud thrown both privately and publicly.   There are no angels here and Bill Buck is no more the devil than Bill McEwen.

In all of this, keep in mind that I'm not a fan of any PPC solution, nor am I an advocate of x86 or other chipset.  I firmly believe that the only way "the Amiga" could have, past tense made a difference in the world is to have been hardware agnostic.  Yes, I realize that's a pipe dream, but no larger a dream than the ideal that a slow, expensive, outdated PPC Amiga will change the world.

(Sorry, off topic again).
 

Offline Kay

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2003, 12:53:03 PM »
Well, I have a policy of not commenting on most MOS-related stuff. Since I am not currently interested in that platform, and have little consructive input, I simply don't see the need to comment. There are two situations in which I don't follow this policy though:
1. When Amiga (something which DOES interest me) is mentioned. This isn't uncommon in BBRV's posts.
2. When the news *could* be relevant to the Amiga platform (for example "Any chance of an AmigaOS port of this?").

I agree that people should be allowed to express their views when they feel the need. However, I don't see the point in constantly and repeatedly bashing products which one has no interest in.

Kay
 

Offline DaveP

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2003, 12:57:42 PM »
Quote

I think his point is simply that if something (in this case MorphOS) doesn't interest you, then you probably should just leave it alone. If YOU go into a thread about a product you have no interest in, then why are you doing it if not to stir up trouble and flames?

Well to which my response is even if you don't want to buy something
you can still have an opinion on something, and if you have an opinion
on something then you have an interest in it. I cannot imagine
that any Amiga owner or potential owner does not have an interest
in MorphOS.

I would also respond that such questions should also be asked
of the "other side" ( hate this side business but for the sake of debate )
and they should ask the question of themselves. I think any
sane individual would realise that in this small marketplace
everyone has an interest in practically everything. It is a mite
hypocritical of Frodon to make such requests and not
expect it of his own side ( been in any Amiga Inc/Hyperion/Eyetech
thread lately on ANN, Amiga.org or Moobunny that did not
contain a whole bunch of anti sentiment from people that
have no real intention of buying the product? ). Once you
start applying it to your own side you realise quite how
unworkable the position is.

Quote

On the other hand, product X might be interesting to other site members here, even if not to you, so why should we hide from it or ban it's mention simply because it offends you?

Quite. That would be ridiculous. However I think people have
said similar things to this to point out in response to people like
Frodon that it is fanning the flames somewhat. I saw similar
flame wars result on USENET during the whole laserdisc vs dvd
debate.

Quote

To be honest, I might indeed be off-topic here, or maybe after this weekend of all the flaming, I'm just overzealous about putting out smoking cinders.  Who knows?  Who can really blame me? :-)

No one :-D

Quote

My only point here really is that this site should not be limited to discussions about "officially sanctified" solutions, simply because company X has LICENSED (they do not own) some trademarks.  

I am simply -- yet overwhelmingly -- frustrated by the continual lack of maturity when it comes to the acceptance and discussion of these certain topics.  


Agreed.

However I would be disturbed to see a situation where
Mips_proc, takemehomegrandma, Kronos etc felt that they
were unable to post on a Amiga Inc thread in case it was seen that
they were "fanning the flames" OR visa-versa.

I am hoping to find out what Frodon and others that think as
he do think that this call will achieve for either "side" in the
great debate and how exactly is it supposed to be policed to be
fair for all.

Frankly the answer in my mind is responsible posting
and responsible moderation of sensitive topics - allowing
both sides of the debate to go on and for moderation
decisions to be as open as possible and documented
for the "world" to see so no one can cry foul.

But Im not going to ask outright for that, I'm just going to subtly
hint at it several times until you say yay or nay ;-)

(edit) u before o after q
Hate figure. :lol:
 

  • Guest
Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2003, 01:13:56 PM »
Quote
Yes, I realize that's a pipe dream, but no larger a dream than the ideal that a slow, expensive, outdated PPC Amiga will change the world.


I don't know about changing the world, but it will change my life.
Look into my eyes when I say this...

I am so sick of mainstream OS's I could Puke!

I am sick of Bill Gates saying to me, "your serial number is no longer valid because you have formated and changed your system around too many times".

I am so sick of Linux installations, I feel like I might go insane sometimes.

I don't even want to talk about apple, quicktime, and the rest of that nonsense.

I'll tell you what.
Some folks might think I'm crazy holding on to something that is in the past.
But in my own opinion, if I am to continue to use a computer, I need Amiga!

It is the "Only" option for me.

If it comes to pass that OS4 tells me what to do with my property that I purchased, then it will be time to quit computing all together.

But for me, there is no other OS out there.
This OS4 is my hope for computing sanity.
I know that it will be a slow start at first.
I know there will be no office suite.
No killer apps.

But there will be something that I can enjoy relearning untill (hopefully) it blossoms into a mature OS.

And I'm also glad to see that Wayne is human.
The dude makes mistakes.
He loses his kewl a lot.
He says he's sorry every now and then.

He's human.

He's also got the best site around.

 

Offline DaveP

Re: Marketplace Segregation ( see no evil )?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2003, 02:28:59 PM »
None of the alternative operating systems will change the
world overnight and very few will ever achieve it.

Hate figure. :lol: