Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

DaveP it isnt a matter of 'Genesi' its a matter of AOS not bieng retail...and limiting the solutions to just the AmigaOne G3/G4 models.....I dont want an AmigaOne I'd prefer a Pegasos or Barbie to the A1.... and AOS4 could easily have gotten onto those two boards....I'm not gonna sit and say that Genesi wanted to sacrifice MOS to make A.inc happy...of course not...they want their OS to succeed and with good reason they actually put hard work into it... so they care about it...

[DaveP]

@Kronos

"What are you on ?"
Excuse me, why the personal insult?

"Yes any Pegasos will ship with MorphOS, just like any Mac
ships with MacOS and every A1 is gonna ship with OS4."

So the Pegasos is really a MorphOS boxen? That is interestingly the first time anyone has come out and admitted that. That it isn't an "open PPC bit of hardware".

"But thats NOT the point of the petition, it is about OS4 being sold without the HW, to use it on a Pegasos or Mac."

Kronos, you haven't read through what I wrote properly have you? I addressed this point.

"Genesi atleast haven't ruled out selling MorphOS shrink-wrapped for
A1 or Mac."

Amiga Inc haven't ruled out selling it for the Pegasos or Mac. Genesi ruled out selling AmigaOS4 for the Pegasos ( see my post properly this time ). If someone comes up with a serious business proposal and aren't just a back bedroom in West London ( like Pegasos-UK ) then they will evaluate it.

But "not ruling out" is like throwing a sop to the masses. Show me the money.

[Kronos]

Genesi ruled out selling AmigaOS4 for the Pegasos

Yes and I'm sure Apple would rule out selling AOS,MOS or Linux for Macs.
(o.k. maybe not Linux).

But do they rule out letting someone else doing an OS and sell it for their HW ?

And again both boards are open, cos you can run whatever SW you like on it.

Do you really think AInc would allow the Pegasos to be sold with MOS and OS4 ?

Without paying the "A1-the-name" licence fees ?

It is AInc's and only AInc's (+Hyperion) descicion on what HW
their OS gets ported, and they won't do it for the Mac or the Pegasos,
so they are the ones responsible for the lack of choice.

Hiding behind an obscure licence-scheme won't change that, but it
sure make a hell of a good PR.

[DaveP]

"DaveP it isnt a matter of 'Genesi' its a matter of AOS not bieng retail.."

We were discussing the licensing scheme. I said that I backed the licensing scheme because it put Amiga Inc on an equal footing with Genesi and exposed Genesi's anti-competative stance on the Pegasos.

".and limiting the solutions to just the AmigaOne G3/G4 models..."
Which they have not done. They have limited the solution to licensed hardware. That is people that are a real business with real money and a good plan. That licensed hardware could be anything.

"..I dont want an AmigaOne I'd prefer a Pegasos or Barbie to the A1.... and AOS4 could easily have gotten onto those two boards...."
Care to give us a step by step guide?

"I'm not gonna sit and say that Genesi wanted to sacrifice MOS to make A.inc happy...of course not..."

Who said they had to? We all moaned about Microsoft when they said that they had to be the only pre-installed OS on PC hardware, we all moaned about MicroSoft when they bundled IE as the primary browser with Win9x at the exclusion of others but I don't see the same people moaning about Genesis' stance on MOS preload and MOS bundling.

There is nothing in this licensing scheme stopping Pegasos being sold as a MOSBOX ( whatever ) or an AOS4 box. It is Genesi that at least up until the last time I tried, EXCLUDE the ability to unbundle MOS from volume resales if that resale is to be Pegasos with AOS4 as the first booting OS.

"they want their OS to succeed and with good reason they actually put hard work into it... so they care about it..."

Sure, and that does them credit. But what it does not do is excuse their hypocritical stance of AmigaOS4 which the "Amiga cartel" has put a lot of hard work into as well that THEY equally want to succeed. IF motives excuse behaviour how come they, you and others are so selective about who it applies to?

You see I see a lot of "parasitic marketing" mumbo jumbo from Luca and Bouma but what is parasitic is the hypothetical situation of selling Pegasos's as Amigas including AmigaOS in the package but the default pre-install is an alternative OS which the company would rather sell. This was what was being forced on myself and one other prospective vendor at least.

If the licensing scheme was invented PURELY for the reasons of countering that marketing scenario then it was worth it for that alone.

In the meantime shrink wrapped AmigaOS packages are not economically viable. Look how long it has taken Hyperion to get this far with just Blizzard, Cyberstorm and AmigaONE GE/XE platforms to support. To provide a "one package boots on all" might have taken them a century at this rate.
 :-P

[Kronos]

@DaveP
There is a tiny difference between M$-bundling and the Pegasos.

M$ forces their SW on someelses HW, (just like AInc tries with the licence),
while Genesi produce ONE product consisting of HW&SW. Doesn't mean you
couldn't run any other OS on it, or that retailers wouldn't be
allowed to bundle a 2nd OS to it (something M$ doesn't allow).

[Elektro]

I think that instead of the pegasos we should be discussing all the Teron board owners who although they'll have identical boards will not be able to buy or run AmigaOS on their machines. This is market lost for no good reason.

[DaveP]

"Yes and I'm sure Apple would rule out selling AOS,MOS or Linux for Macs.
(o.k. maybe not Linux)."
Yep. So wheres the problem again? I don't see you pressuring Apple into providing a ubiquitous MacOS CD to run on all PPC hardware past and present??!?

"But do they rule out letting someone else doing an OS and sell it for their HW ?"
No, and nor do Amiga Inc.

"And again both boards are open, cos you can run whatever SW you like on it."
Not to Vendors.

"Do you really think AInc would allow the Pegasos to be sold with MOS and OS4 ?"
No. But they won't stop ( apart from the MOS is illegal protestations of the Fleecy and Bill puppet show )  Pegasos being sold with MOS on its own, but Genesi want to stop Pegasos being sold with AOS on its own - OR EVEN ( get this ) with AOS preinstalled but with MOS in the package.

The acceptable face of closing the system?

"Without paying the "A1-the-name" licence fees ?"
What is your source for the "license fees" bit. Nothing is publically known about this AFAIK. The fact that you say "A1 the-name" means that this sticks in your throat but is still irrelevant. Apple owns the name of Macintosh ( well for computer hardware and software bundles that is ) do you object to them too?

"It is AInc's and only AInc's (+Hyperion) descicion on what HW
their OS gets ported, and they won't do it for the Mac or the Pegasos,
so they are the ones responsible for the lack of choice."
They are not stopping anyone from taking out a license to do so and have said so publically.

"Hiding behind an obscure licence-scheme won't change that, but it sure make a hell of a good PR."
Trying to divert attention onto Amiga Incs practices to allow Genesi's anti-competitive practices and stance to continue won't change that but it sure makes a hell of a good PR.

No one is "hiding" behind a licence scheme. There is no need to hide. Genesi are the ones not allowing AmigaOS4 to be sold for their board and not allowing ( at the moment at least ) any vendor to adhere to the Amiga Inc licensing conditions either.

DaveP so you think that if they release OS4 for Pegasos it will somehow be to Genesi's 'advantage?" ...I dont...it will be to eyetech's disadvantage thats for sure...alot less would probably buy the A1....but on the other hand alot less would run MorphOS...as is... people like Kronos/Me/etc will just buy Peggys and run MOS and wait...wich dosent have an advantage for anyone but Genesi.

IF motives excuse behaviour how come they, you and others are so selective about who it applies to?

see you define OEM bundles as 'parasitic' ... I dont... I view rom'ing/etc as parasitic...because it limits the communitys choices...

[DaveP]

@Kronos
Agreed. It is a tiny difference. However I have to point out that not seperating OS/370 from the System 370 in exactly the same way that Genesi is doing at the moment ( allowed other OS but IBMs OS/370 had to be preinstalled as 1st OS ) is what made IBM fall foul of the anti-competative laws in the USA.

In fact the IBM settlement meant that not only did the OS have to be seperable from the hardware but the OS itself had to be broken up into modular parts ( DFSMS, CS/370, BCOS etc ) and the public interfaces published to allow third parties to bundle.

Sure the Amiga Inc licensing scheme is "anti-competative" but so is Genesi's and Genesis anti-competative stance was there first ;-)

[Kronos]

I don't see you pressuring Apple into providing a ubiquitous MacOS CD to run on all PPC hardware past and present??!?  

I'm surely not presuring anybody here, I just don't like it when
people try to blame Genesi for something that is AIncs descicion.

I don't see Steve Jobs running around an claiming that you could
just licence OSX to non-Apple-HW.

If AIncs wants their OS to run on something else than the A1, than
they have to make it available. Simple logic.

"A1-the-name-licence"

Nothing known ?
Just reread all the ExecUps and statements by Ben Alan and you would find this.

OS4-licence is free.
But doesn't allow the HW to be called AmigaOne.
Alan: All licencec paid.

And even more, so yes putting the name Amiga on something does cost, and
according to everything that is publicly known it will be the major
income for AInc from the whole OS4-project.

And again, show me any proof the Genesi are not allowing anybody to
port any OS !!

All that is need for this is a board and some documentation, and as
long as that was all that Hyperion demande I was right behind them,
but THEY are it who are adding extra preconditions to such a port
not Genesi.

[DaveP]

"DaveP so you think that if they release OS4 for Pegasos it will somehow be to Genesi's 'advantage?'"

Yes, of course. Because more people will buy Pegasos boards but because of the Genesi bundling scheme the OS that boots up straight away and has that all important "line of sight" real estate will be MOS. In fact I wouldnt be surprised if there was no spare space prepped on the HD to allow AOS to be installed without reprepping and you might as well use MOS for that... Once people start using MOS the less likely they are to get around to installing AOS until much later. Not necessarily because it is better but because that is the way life works.

" ...I dont...it will be to eyetech's disadvantage thats for sure.."
Yes, I am sure but Eyetechs disadvantage is not mutually exclusive from Genesis advantage.

".alot less would probably buy the A1..."
Maybe. Interesting but not pertinent to the argument of first position bundling schemes like Genesis.

".but on the other hand alot less would run MorphOS...as is... "
I don't agree. But see above.

"people like Kronos/Me/etc will just buy Peggys and run MOS and wait...wich dosent have an advantage for anyone but Genesi."
As is your right and more power to you.

"see you define OEM bundles as 'parasitic' ... I dont... I view rom'ing/etc as parasitic...because it limits the communitys choices..."
How does limiting choice equal parasitic behaviour? Line Of Sight or First Position Bundling is standard parasitic marketing, sheesh I only spent a secondment in marketing and even I know that. I mean even look at the dictionary definition of "parasite".

Anti-competativeness comes from licensing schemes like Genesis bundling and the Amiga Inc scheme when from a dominant position in a given market ( e.g. the Amiga market ).

Parasitic schemes I have already defined as logically equivalent to "heres your coke, but first you have to drink pepsi to get to the coke at the back of the crate". Sure, you thought you were buying Coke but you were buying the right to drink Coke after you had drunk a Pepsi.

[Helgis75]

The problem has been that Bill Buck, along with BPlan/Genesi, have been serving lies about the AmigaOne and OS4. Amiga Inc with Hyperion and Eyetech are clearing this out, and will put and end to
the Bill Buck-inspired lies. Bill Buck and BPlan/Genesi are very scared now because they know their lies are about to be exposed really soon, and then they will look like a bunch of big fools!

If you want truth, then Amiga Inc, Hyperion and Eyetech are the only one to listen to...

[Kronos]

AInc and the thruth ?  I thought those were mutaly exclusive .....


And what lies ? That the MAI-NB is quite buggy ?
That Eyetechs/MAIs fix isn't the end of it all ?
"Switch of DMA" was the advices given for someone with a "fixed" board.

Or that OS4 won't make it to the targeted deadlines in May or
December ? Well show me your OS4 !!

Genesi have a product to sell while the other side has only
overpriced linux-systems and pre-pay-coupons.

That is the simple thruth.

[DaveP]

I don't see Steve Jobs running around an claiming that you could
just licence OSX to non-Apple-HW.

Because he stopped all that, CLOSING the platform. In fact you could take it that he is not as OPEN as Amiga Inc ;-)

If AIncs wants their OS to run on something else than the A1, than
they have to make it available. Simple logic.

Chop logic more like. You could say "If Genesi wants the premier Amiga OS to run on its hardware then they should pay the cost of porting it". Perhaps you do not know how Microsoft and Intel work? They have a business deal ( like the license ) that means that when Intel comes up with a new chipset they part fund the cost of upgrading Windows to run on it OR they ensure that the chipset is 100% compatible with the kernel.

"A1-the-name-licence"
Nothing known ?
Just reread all the ExecUps and statements by Ben Alan and you would find this.

Link precisely to the facts where they say that you have to pay fees to enter the scheme?

And again, show me any proof the Genesi are not allowing anybody to
port any OS !!

Show me where I said that Genesi are not allowing anybody to port any OS? I hesistate to rewrite what I did say because I have repeated it several times now and I am not sure that you have read it now.

All that is need for this is a board and some documentation, and as
long as that was all that Hyperion demande I was right behind them,
but THEY are it who are adding extra preconditions to such a port
not Genesi.

What like seeking Genesi's signature on a license?

Porting is a seperable issue. I am talking about what the deal is once a port has been done. Genesi will not allow any reseller to unbundle MOS which conflicts with the licensing terms of AOS - which as you rightly said (paraphrase) if you sell a Mac as a Mac then it should boot into MacOS. If you sell an Amiga as an Amiga then it should boot into AmigaOS and not be forced to boot into a foreign OS.

THAT is the sticking point. But you persist on putting all the blame on Amiga Inc, Hyperion or whoever.

I cannot go into business selling Pegasos booting into AmigaOS4 until Genesi backs down from putting conditions on vendors that deliberately conflict with business sense and the licensing agreement.

I want to see Pegasos as AmigaONEs booting into AmigaOS4 but it is Genesi that shot the plan in the foot, NOT Amiga Inc.

( Edit: correct typo read -> rewrite )

[Helgis75]

Your choice to what to believe. The Articia HAS been fixed. What have be done to the XE is that the ARM-slot has been removed and improving the audio features of the motherboard, and it only gave Eyetech more time to make sure that there are no more problems with the motherboards, which there are not...

I got the mail from Fleecy stating this, and i was also told that the OS4 is just now closing in for release, with an update to the user spesification, and people will be amazed of how much work has been put into it!

THAT's the whole truth! Now your choice of belief is up to you. You decide your own path. Truth or lie, the choice is your alone, and your problem alone. Don't blame others if you pick the wrong choice! Sorry...

[DaveP]

@Helgis75

Seeing Amiga Inc and cartel as some White Knight with a Sword Of Truth helps no-one. Nor does accusing Bill Buck of deliberately spreading lies.

Bill doesn't have to, there are plenty of people on ANN that do that.