IT Education: Degree or Certificate?

[asian1]

Hi
Several friends of my nephew will graduate from high school this year.
They want to go to University for IT Degree, but they heard that obtaining various IT Certificate is more useful than IT Degrees (Microsoft, Cisco, Novell, Linux etc).
Is this true?
Which one is the best, IT Degree or certificates?
Which one is more flexible for the future?
Which one will get a better job?
Thank's.

[Ilwrath]

Well, it all depends on what you want to do...

Honestly, from what I've seen, if you want to start in IT, experience is what you need more than degrees, or certificates.  Of course, the problem is it's a catch-22, you need experience to gain experience.  

No matter if you choose certificates or degree, you need to make sure you go somewhere that offers on-the-job experience, through an internship, work/study, or whatever.  

Later on, certificates probably help more for consulting, while degrees are required for the cushy "IT management" positions.

Forget paper.

Get experience.

I didn't get where I am today by being qualified

[legion]

I didn't get where I am today by being qualified

 :laugh:

[vpcs]

The better the Certs the more money.. But Today the pay is not what it was 10 years ago. The market is flooded. Luckily I got started with a company who paid for me to get my certs.. But it seems the day of 6 figures is getting slimmer and slimmer. Expecially here in the US with so many programming and support jobs being farmed out overseas

[BigBenAussie]

If they want to be software engineers it'll be hard to get your foot in the door without a degree.

If they want to be network admins, I hear that the certificates are useful.

This is based on my US and Aussie experience.

I would seriously deter them from being software engineers. The market is sooooooo bad, what with outsourcing and all, that I'm seriously considering changing to something else.

As a Software Engineer in the MS tech world, even though I can find other jobs they aren't significantly better than my current and you would think as I gain more experience that my salary value would go up, but I am finding that not to be the case any more. Everyone is hanging on to their jobs for dear life. Lucky, my salary is stable from the dotcom era.

Its a really sad situation. There will be hardly any software engineers in the western world in 10-15 years time. I wouldn't start an IT degree now, and if you just completed one, I would just go back to school and get a different degree.

When the Deans of Universities are saying at College Computer Science Graduation ceremonies that you will need to change your vocation several times in your life they aren't kidding.

IT is the first thing to go. Then Financial stuff, accountants etc. Basically, anything that doesn't require someone nailed down is going to be offshored. Globalisation sucks!!!! The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, but we have all these healthy economic statistics, but never mind where the money goes.

Your friends would be safe with System Admin stuff though as you need them on site.

[ltstanfo]

asian1 wrote:
Hi
Several friends of my nephew will graduate from high school this year.
They want to go to University for IT Degree, but they heard that obtaining various IT Certificate is more useful than IT Degrees (Microsoft, Cisco, Novell, Linux etc).
Is this true?
Which one is the best, IT Degree or certificates?
Which one is more flexible for the future?
Which one will get a better job?
Thank's.

I cannot speak for what it is like overseas but here in the US, choosing the degree vs. certificate route is problematic.  I live in a city in the southern US (Huntsville, AL) where most of our "tech" business is government related (I am a government contractor with a degree in computer science).  There is some purely commercial business but not much.  You have to travel to other cities like Birmingham, Nashville or Atlanta to go pure (or at least higher concentration)commercial market.  With that being said, let me pose a few questions to you and the other readers of this topic (based on my experience and observations):

1.  What market do you want to go into?  Commercial or government related (military, admin, research, etc..)  The trade offs are as follows:
a.  Government - lower paying (overall) but more stable job market.  Pay raises are smaller but more consistent.  Once you are established in this market (minimum 5 years), it is relatively easy to switch companies / jobs without much worry about unemployment, particulary if you stay in one field.
b.  Commercial - higher paying but generally less stable.  Pay raises are higher but may hinge more on company / product performance.  Job stability can change overnight.  Commercial work tends to need more relocation to "follow the money" (in my observations).

2.  What are your expectations for the job you seek?  If you want to get your "foot in the door" to gain experience a government job will pay higher (initially) if you have a degree.  You can get a government related job with just a certificate and no college diploma but it won't be long before you max out your pay grade and ability to "climb the corporate ladder".  The simple fact is that for a government job, a degree is a "weeding out" factor that determines how far you can get.  In the commercial world, jobs are more competitive but it is possible (my opinion) to be financially rewarded if you have just a certificate.  The issue here will be experience and in the commercial world, more experience is always better.

I have a friend who has no college degree but is a genius with computer networks and internet applications development / deployment.  He has numerous certificates from Microsoft and Novell but he cannot get the "time of day" here in Huntsville because he has no "real world" experience.  So, in my town at least, he cannot find a job (it's the old addage...can't get a job without experience but can't get experience without a job).  He had to move to Nashville to get a low paying, experience making commercial job (and did his company ever get a good deal by hiring him).  Your mileage may vary.

Regards,
Lee

[takemehomegrandma]

asian1 wrote:
Hi
Several friends of my nephew will graduate from high school this year.
They want to go to University for IT Degree, but they heard that obtaining various IT Certificate is more useful than IT Degrees (Microsoft, Cisco, Novell, Linux etc).
Is this true?
Which one is the best, IT Degree or certificates?
Which one is more flexible for the future?
Which one will get a better job?
Thank's.

Serious suggestion follows:

Tell them to move to India, educate themselves there (cheap, and still (close to) "top of the line"), and then find a suitable life over there, working for any of the worlds top software developer firms that are present there.

Software development is becoming a low-wage employment, like any other industrial employments. They have everything they need in India (and other low-wages countries too), like high education, top of the line computers, broad band Internet access, etc. India (and similar countries) is the future in this business.

[BigBenAussie]

@takemehomegrandma

ARE YOU NUTS!!!!! :-?
MOVE TO INDIA!!!!! :-o
YOU'D GO INSANE IN HALF AN HOUR!!!! :madashell:  
You must be saying this in jest surely....
You cannot possibly be serious. :roll:

Not to mention that the work ethic in India is completely different to the west. They'll compete to work the longest. 14 hours days will be your average and they don't have a good quality of life as a result.
India is an IT sweatshop....and that is hardly enticing. And don't you DARE tell me that Indians create better quality software because that's BS!!!  :pissed:

Not to mention the fact you need to give bribes just to get a telephone connected. India.....Are you kidding?
It's as foreign to westerners as working in the centre of Baghdad!!!! Westerners would die of culture shock, in fact I'm nearly in a coma from just working with Indians. :furious:

To say such a thing you must either be Indian or have never worked with any because you just don't get it.

India:destroy:  

[x56h34]

takemehomegrandma is just stating the cruel facts of the today's IT industry in N. America, which is called outsourcing. Greedy companies nowadays simply will go to the cheaper work force, and with the population of 1 billion, India surely offers plenty of experts who will do the job close to or as good as if it were done in N. America, but of course at unbeatable lower prices.

[BigBenAussie]

CRAP!!!!! ITS ONLY A PERCEPTION!!!!
WHICH YOU ARE FUELLING!!!!! :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:

[BigBenAussie]

Oh....I see....you must be flame baiting me.....yeah flame the newbie...ok.. Fine....you're still wrong. :-x

[Argo]

Chill dude! Seriously.

I'd suggest a Computer field degree (depending on what they feel they would like to do) or General CS degree. Then either double major or minor in Business. Also, they should look into internships, work study, or part time job in their chosen field or related area. Not to mention they could try to make their own credentials, join or create a software project, help a professor with research, etc. Just have to be alittle inventive sometimes.

[iamaboringperson]

They want to go to University for IT Degree, but they heard that obtaining various IT Certificate is more useful than IT Degrees (Microsoft, Cisco, Novell, Linux etc).

I heard that a CCNA certificate just about garuantees you a job!

However those 'propriatary' courses are often much more difficult than say.. a diploma level course. I know, I did both within the same 2 years!

Which one is more flexible for the future?

A uni course is certainly more flexible, that's because it trains you in a much wider variety of subjects - it's kind of being a jack of all trades (but a really good 'jack')
Whereas those other courses are each much more specific.
If you do a networking one - you do it to learn networking only, ofcourse it's no good for programming, for example.

Which one will get a better job?

That's up to you.

You will have to work out what kind of job you want, and then get those skills, if you want to be a Sys. Admin. go for a more specific course.

The best thing to start doing is to browse through employment sites to see what skills people are currently after.


The best way to get a job in IT is to get experience ! That ususlly means to look around places you might wish to work for and offer your services for free...

Chances are, that if you're any good they'll take you on.

[Dagon]

ARE YOU NUTS!!!!!  
MOVE TO INDIA!!!!!  
...
they don't have a good quality of life as a result.
India is an IT sweatshop

sweatshop? lol well I wouldn`t blame anyone if he wanted to go to such a "sweatshop".

ECONOMICTIMES.COM

That was really good news, you moving to India, I mean.

But I don't see why you should feel so depressed about it! India, whether you believe it or not, is the best that can happen to a US techie


No mate, I am not joking. I know, to the average American, India conjures up images of pot-hole filled freeways, unconcerned cattle and pedestrians mixing with unruly traffic, heat, dust, snakes and diseases. I don't blame you. Every US network and newspaper has flown in its star reporters to Bangalore, India's Silicon Valley . And reporters, especially the ones from America, know how to zoom in on the most despicable scenes! Sadly, those reports

There is more to India, brother.

Haven't you read all those reports about unemployed US techies wanting to move to India? Losers, you thought?

I won't be exaggerating if I say techies in India enjoy a demi-god status! Yeah, unlike you American techies.

An Indian techie enjoys a lifestyle even the billionaires in America can only dream of. To start with, their salaries put them in an orbit very few can dream of. When Friedman says in his NYT column that a techie fresh out of college gets paid more than the his parent's earnings, he is not exaggerating.

And Gawd, what a life they lead! They own flashy cars and apartments. They have cooks, chauffeurs, maids, gardeners! Have you even dreamt of having a cook to get your dinner ready when you and your wife get home from your work? Have you ever dreamt of having a maid to take care of your kids? Wouldn't your wife have loved to do some gardening if she had more time?

Nah, I am not kidding, yaar (that's how we Indians address our friends. Time you picked up some Hindustani, instead of your nasal twang!) These guys can afford to have maids, chauffeur-driven cars and cooks. The techie is the Mughal among India's much written about New Economy professionals.

And after all this, they have money to save and invest. Yes, they invest. These guys with downy cheeks. They invest in apartments, property, stock markets!

You have been working for 10 years here in the mecca of capitalism. Do you own a house? Do you save enough to invest in the real estate market? Even after all that social and medical support doled out by the government.

Forget you, even your boss who prides himself as a New Economy pioneer, ask him how much money he has managed to put into his bank account after working like a dog for 15 years.

And don't think they are being paid in gold. They are paid in rupees, man. And a dollar sells for 43 rupees. So imagine what he would be doing if was being paid in dollars! His lifestyle would put even those colonial Englishmen (we call them white sahibs) and their country cousins, the IAS guys (the legacy of our colonial rule) to shame! Now imagine yourself in the shoes of an Indian techie who is paid in dollars. And do you know your dream is just waiting to happen, in India!

And the icing on the cake will be you may be sharing your villa (yes mate, villa) with the high and mighty in Bangalore -- the chief minister could be your neighbour! Now, where did you dream of having Arny as your neighbour?  

Well, here's one last thing that can swing your mind. Do you know there are no terrorists in Bangalore?!

Don't you now envy that Yank couple that was thinking about moving to India?

Don't wait. Log in and get your air ticket booked now.

PS: Do you know headhunters in India are already being swamped by applications from US techies -;)

Globalisation sucks!!!! The rich get richer and the poor get poorer

Well the facts say that at least the poor get reacher where globalization in in act.

http://www.johannorberg.net/

GOOD NEWS ON POVERTY: The anti-globalists insist that the poor get poorer. In other words, they keep ignoring the statistics. The World Bank has just made a revised estimate, to be published in World Development Indicators 2004, which shows what we already knew: The proportion of people living in absolute poverty (less than one dollar a day at 1993 purchasing-power parity) is lower than it has ever been before. But the new figures show even more progress than previously known. According to the revised figures, world poverty was reduced from 33% in 1981 to 18% in 2001. This means that almost 400 million people was liberated from absolute poverty in 20 years! And as we already knew, this progress has been led by the globalised East Asian countries, whereas poverty is on the increasee in the anti-globalised African countries.

Do the rich become poorer? well neither that is true. The rich gain with globalization, if it was the contrary they wouldn`t invest in foreign countries. Outsourcing of jobs ultimately benefits the US economy by lowering prices and putting more purchasing power in the hands of consumers.

http://www.adamsmithblog.org/

US creates more jobs
By Dr Madsen Pirie  3 April 2004    Tax & Economy

The US economy created 308,000 jobs in March, the biggest monthly increase in 4 years, and 3 times expectations. It contrasts with the previous month's figure which was below expectation and which heightened talk of a 'jobless boom.'