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Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« on: April 06, 2025, 09:22:20 PM »
Hi folks,

currently I have a friend's beautiful A3000D here for repair - actually for the second time. Back in 2018, I removed the battery and respective damage which didn't appear too bad. The electrolyte spread out to U480 and U477. I desoldered both and found a damaged trace that was restored with a bodge wire on the bottom side of the board. Didn't change the chips though as they looked good enough after a cleanup.
We made a deal that we would switch it on together to celebrate the moment. It took almost seven years to get to that point, and when we switched it on eventually, well, not much to celebrate: the PSU fan roared as usual but nothing else happened. No video, no floppy clicking, not even any of the LEDs turns on which must be due to an issue very early in the chain of steps the Amiga goes through at power-up.
The place we were at that time is an arcade / pinball museum so there was a specialist around for oldschool electronics who advised to replace the Denise socket, and even did that as he had the better-suited equipment. However, we were in bad luck as this didn't change anything.
So the 3000 is back on my bench again and I'm now trying to find out whatever it is.
I re-checked the board for remaining corrosion that I might have overlooked in 2018, and found some through-hole vias that looked rotten so I patched them with wires soldered to the traces on both sides to bypass the through-hole connection. By continuity measurements, this looks okay. Didn't help though.

This is what I can tell about the behavior:

  • board is REV9/03
  • both LEDs (POWER and SCSI) stay completely off. I have never seen this before. POWER should be dim at least but there is absolutely nothing to see
  • keyboard CAPS LOCK LED: sometimes stays on constantly from the moment the unit is switched on and can't be toggled. In other events, it would go off after a second on power-up like usual, and then could be toggled five times until it froze (CIA not processing keybord input and buffer is running full, I guess)
  • CPU has 25MHz on pin 6. Not a beautiful square wave though, it's between square and sine wave actually but a 25MHz 5V peak-to-peak signal still with no fluctuations
  • power supply outputs all voltages including VID and TICK in an acceptable range even under load
  • I know from my own A3000D (that I regrettably sold years ago) that the board won't be happy without the daughter board so it is plugged in during tests of course
  • 1MB of FAST RAM is populated in the DIP sockets, using the optional 2nd MB of CHIP RAM. So for CHIP RAM, only the soldered ones are present, making 1MB CHIP plus 1MB FAST. If anything about this were wrong, I would expect at least some color on the screen indicating missing ram, and missing RAM should not cause the LEDs to stay off
  • Kickstart ROMs are v40.68, the classic EPROMS with the glass window and sticker across. I have tried my DiagROMs instead but nothing changed
  • checked some random electrolytics for their ESR and at least the ones I checked have close to zero Ohms, pretty good for their age
  • jumpers are in factory default settings, as far as I can tell
  • during tests, nothing but PSU, keyboard, and a monitor are connected

Unfortunately there is no Amiga PCB Explorer available for the 3000D board. The best I could find is https://github.com/iansbremner/ReAmiga-3000---KiCAD.git which is close to the original design at least in the region of interest - I still think all of this is a consequence of the battery leakage so that is where I would put my focus. It is of course possible that there is another additional problem but we know the 3000 worked when it was last used (2002 probably, lol). It was since stored an a good environment but this shelf time gave the battery around 16 years of doing its thing. Again, my assumption is that it could have been much worse but still it's bad enough for a lot of headache and guessing.
Is there any place where I can find a systematic approach to troubleshooting A3000 power-up behavior? Or a list of points where specific voltages or signals must be measurable? I would be very grateful for any advice. If there is anything you want to know, I'll happily contribute accordingly.
Thanks a ton!

Cheers,
Joe
 

Offline mechy

Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2025, 03:23:21 AM »
Its common to have a cracked trace/solder on the led board. check with a meter for power at the motherboard led pins.
Start at the psu connector and trace 5v to the respective chips to see if its making it around the board.
You only need chip ram installed for testing.
some good info on Castellans site(Anthony) http://amiga.serveftp.net/
good luck!


 
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Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2025, 03:10:11 PM »
Whoa, that was spot-on. Actually all of the POWER LED solder points and traces were breaky. Fixed that so we can now move on. The LED now turns on but stays dim. There's still no video and nothing else.
Unfortunately, I have no monitor to watch the analog 15kHz output. Maybe it does render colors which don't make it through Amber to the VGA port. Well, I'll look more deeply into it.
Thank you for the hint, @mechy! Also for the link, will check it out.
 

Offline Castellen

Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2025, 09:09:26 PM »
Is there any place where I can find a systematic approach to troubleshooting A3000 power-up behavior? Or a list of points where specific voltages or signals must be measurable?

Would be useful to connect a known good 15kHz monitor to see if you get any error colour screen (yellow or green) which would give a few clues of where to look next.  Don't rely on the 31kHz video port yet since there's a good chance that the scandoubler won't be working as a result of the battery corrosion.  Test/repair that separately once the rest of the machine is working.

If it's just a black screen, and if you don't know the history of the board, it would be worth checking the various jumpers, particularly J100 - J104 as the system will fail to boot as you've described with any of these incorrect.  Notes around jumper configuration on my webserver:
http://amiga.serveftp.net/A3000_HardwareGuide/jumpers.html

Failing that, you need to begin by seeing what's happening during the first stages of booting, which is:
1. See if the system is coming out of reset state, this happens a few hundred milliseconds after +5V is stable, Gary will de-assert _KBRST, causing all of the various reset signals such as _CPURST, _RESET, etc, to go from low to high state, after which the CPU will begin executing instructions from ROM.  Don't quote me on the exact signal names, I'm too lazy to get the schematic out.

2. Look at the activity on _ROMEN, easiest location is pin 12 of either ROM.  Just to state the obvious, you need to do this with an oscilloscope with a timebase of around 1uSec/division.  There should be constant activity there all the time with the system active.  If you never see any activity (_ROMEN always high) immediately after reset, it means that either the CPU isn't executing anything (e.g. system is in reset state, no clock, etc), or there's some kind of major address bus error where Gary isn't able to see any address data in the ROM address range.  If you see a few milliseconds of activity on _ROMEN then it stops, then the CPU is likely executing garbage.  Which can be caused by address or data bus faults, ROM faults, and my favourite - when customers exchange the two ROMs in the sockets and/or bend/snap off some of the ROM pins.

3. Look at what's happening on the overlay line (_OVL) which should always be high at 5V immediately at power on.  The CPU sets this active (low) very early during booting from ROM to change the ROM address from $0 to $F80000.  If overlay is low at power on, then CPU will only execute garbage.  If overlay stays high all of the time, the CPU probably isn't asserting overlay, usually because it's executing garbage instead of good ROM data.  A bad CIA can cause this too, but less likely in this case.

4. If it's working normally as described up to this point, then the hardware is probably working enough to run DiagROM.  So replace the system ROMs with DiagROM, then monitor the 9600 baud serial port data with a VT100 terminal to see what clues it provides.


Just remembered I wrote this many years ago, which isn't super helpful given the fact there's a huge number of things that can cause a non-booting fault, but might provide a few more hints:
http://amiga.serveftp.net/A3000_HardwareGuide/booting-problems.html

Lastly, if the U400/Paula IC socket looks even slightly corroded, i.e. contacts not all clean and shiny, replace it.


Or send me the board for repair if you prefer.  International freight prices for a 2.2kg board to New Zealand isn't the cheapest, though it's probably your best option if you can't sort it out yourself.
http://amiga.serveftp.net
 

Offline mechy

Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2025, 11:32:59 PM »
you could use a A520 modulator on the 23pin port to get composite out and maybe run that to a tv or capture card? if u had one with a rca composite jack.  prob not a option either i guess?.
Seen alot of cracked led boards like that.
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2025, 08:15:50 AM »
you could use a A520 modulator on the 23pin port to get composite out and maybe run that to a tv or capture card? if u had one with a rca composite jack.  prob not a option either i guess?.
Seen alot of cracked led boards like that.

Yip, that's exactly what I was planning. Unfortunately, we are in the process of moving, and the A520 was one of the first things that already moved to the new location, along with the DiagROMs, so I'll have to get that box back. It's Murphy all over.
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2025, 08:18:07 AM »
@Castellen: great, thank you so much for all these advice. Will go through them one by one, however, a 15kHz monitor no longer exists, and all the hardware that might be of use now is somewhere else (A520, external flicker fixer, DiagROM) so I'll have to get them before I can continue.
What remains safe to say is that the unit is not booting. There is no floppy activity, and SCSI does not do anything either. Keyboard still behaves as described (buffer running full, input not being processed)
Will keep you up to date!
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2025, 12:43:41 AM »
@Castellen Okay, next issue appears to be the (near) absence of _KBRST so apparently you are spot-on another time. So GARY is the master regarding the very early startup, right?
Measuring _KBRST (in a through-hole at the south edge's left side of the DMAC, or U714 pin 1 alternatively) with a scope, I can see that it goes from low to only 226mV, which is definitely in the low realm, when I switch on the power supply. Subsequently, the derived signals stay low, too:

  • _CPURST: 86mV measured on a through-hole via south of the CPU
  • _RESET (74mV at U714 pin 4)
  • _FPURST (93mV at U714 pin 9)

The scope does not show any changes in these voltages once they are established, no ripple or anything. I think if there is no _KBRST, the passives in the circuitry determine the respective baseline voltages but I might be completely off track here.
I think it's no use to check the subsequent steps until this is sorted out because it totally explains why the system is not coming up at all.
Now the question is, how safely is FAT GARY to blame? The replacement would cost around 100 EUR and I want to be sure that replacing it will actually help. No idea how to test the chip on its own though...
Is it viable to set _KBRST, _CPURST, _RESET, and _FPURST to +5V forcefully with a switch after powering up the system to get the chips to go out of their reset state? Just to rule out that it's anything else than FAT GARY? Or would exactly this do any damage to GARY? Is there any prerequisite GARY needs to set _KBRST high which might not be fulfilled?

Additionally, I had a closer look at the voltages the PSU delivers under load:

  • +12V rail has 11.7V
  • -12V rail has -12.4V
  • +5V rail has 4.66V which is a little low. But is that already too low to cause all this trouble?

Other things checked / done:

  • PAULA socket renewed (this was done in the arcade shop already)
  • re-checked all the soldering we did for missing joints, shorts, open traces
  • checked all the jumpers available on the board, and they match the hardware guide presets

By the way, eventually I found this: https://archive.org/details/amiga-hardware-reference-manual-3rd-edition/page/3/mode/1up?view=theater
Going to consult the reference manual to save you all the trouble of guiding me. I promise to report any breakthrough.

Cheers, and thank you again!
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2025, 01:04:25 PM »
Meh, that hardware reference manual is not covering the A3000 so not too helpful. Now looking for reasons GARY might inhibit to leave the reset state....
Discovered  a signal _FAIL going towards GARY's pin 56 (POWERUP) in the schematics. I can see in the scope that this is slowly (within almost exactly 1 second) rising to high level, so we can rule that out. Rise time is thanks to the electrolytic capacitor next to it, I think.
Found _BERR to go high immediately.
Measured GARY's CLK90 and the 68030 CLK30, screenshots are attached. Both are sine waves, probably normal but I have no idea and nothing to compare to.
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2025, 01:12:25 PM »
Here's the _KBRST waveform from GARY pin 36. It's going from zero to around 270mV only and does not change after that. There is some peak though (hence the >3.46V Pk-Pk measurement), maybe it's going near high very briefly and is then pulled back down...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2025, 01:13:29 PM by JoeMuc2006 »
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2025, 01:19:18 PM »
closeup of that _KBRST peak
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2025, 07:36:58 PM »
Okay, I took the risk and added a switch across pins 1 and 14 of U713 (sorry I called it U714 before, my bad)
When I power up now and then throw the switch, the system actually comes up! Even the 31kHz Amber output works!
So it seems that GARY is in trouble, not generating _KBRST. I don't know for sure but it seems to be time to replace it.
 

Offline Castellen

Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2025, 10:23:30 PM »
So it seems that GARY is in trouble, not generating _KBRST. I don't know for sure but it seems to be time to replace it.

Good work on fault tracing it this far.  It's unlikely that Gary is defective, more likely that one of the conditions for Gary setting _KBRST high are not being met.  As I recall it's at least _FAIL needs to be high (you've confirmed this is OK), _KBCLK needs to be high, and all of the clock inputs need to be valid.

I've got some more handwritten notes on how it works if needed, can give you more detail next week when I'm back home in New Zealand - I'm currently away working internationally.
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2025, 11:43:00 AM »
Finally got my DiagROMs back, and the results are surprising. It seems that only little is at fault. The unit boots up on Kickstart 3.1 properly though, and reads disks, so besides DiagROM I can now also use AmigaTestKit. Still need that RESET hack of course, and the keyboard is totally erratic. It won't pick up any key properly, and delay inputs for seconds. Looks mostly random to me. The screenshot attached is from AmigaTestKit and shows what happens after I pressed Q and W subsequently. The result has nothing to do with either key.
I checked with a different keyboard and it stays like that. Using AmigaTestKit in WinUAE, and pushing Q and W individually, one after another, results in $10 $90 $11 $91, which appears expectable, with 10 and 11 being the Q and W keycodes (on pushing down), and $80 added to their values is the "release" code. So something is badly at fault about the keyboard and I need to look into this next.
A FAT GARY was ordered and despite the doubts I'm hoping that it resolves some of the issues.
We tried to insert a load of Toshiba TC514100AZ-60 ZIP-RAMs, only to find out they are most likely incompatible  :(
Oh, and a lot of DiagROM and ATK tests succeed, for instance, the CIA and timing tests.
I'll keep you up to date.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2025, 04:58:39 PM by JoeMuc2006 »
 

Offline JoeMuc2006Topic starter

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Re: Dead A3000D - not even the LEDs are turning on!
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2025, 01:04:00 PM »
Checked _KBCLK (green) and _KBDAT (yellow) with the scope, and compared to an A2000 it looks like _KBCLK is being pulled down by something in the faulty A3000. The keyboard event is in both cases "Q down" so keycode $10.
Sorry, the timebase is not the same in both screenshots but what is clearly visible is that both signals start high and return to high in the A2000. The A3000's _KBDAT is similar but the same does not apply to _KBCLK which idles at around 1V instead of 5V even outside of keyboard events (probably that's too little to count as high). It reaches the low state properly though.
The connection between the DIN terminal's _KBCLK and FAT GARY pin 44 is fine, measures less than 1 Ohm.
I measured the resistance to ground from _KBCLK without power on, and found that it's ~1.5kOhms when FAT GARY is home, and open line when it was pulled. Curious. Might be another thing pointing towards GARY being the culprit? However, 1.5kOhms is a little too big to pull the signal down that much, right?