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AuthorTopic: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"  (Read 16846 times)

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Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2020, 06:03:41 PM »
So you are afraid that open sourcing might attract more developers? *slow clap*
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Offline bison

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2020, 06:05:16 PM »
Quote
Linux as operating system is doable because there it runs on off-the-shelve hardware, and it has a critical mass of hardware and software to pick from, and a sufficient number of professional players that are part of the game that drive it.
Linux did not spring into existence in its current form.  Back in 1994 it did not run on off-the-shelf hardware; it was an arduous task trying to get a graphics card to work with X11.  If you wanted additional software beyond what was in the distribution, you compiled it from source, and it didn't have *any* professional support for hardware or software.

Too many open-source projects have started from nothing and succeeded to think that AmigaOS would somehow fail given the same opportunity.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 06:07:45 PM by bison »
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2020, 06:18:44 PM »
Too many open-source projects have started from nothing and succeeded to think that AmigaOS would somehow fail given the same opportunity.
Why would that be? Linux worked on cheap, standard hardware. AmigaOs does not. AmigaOs is a retro-operating system working on retro-hardware. It is more important to preserve the interfaces than to extend it.

You really cannot compare Linux with AmigaOs.

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2020, 06:21:19 PM »
So you are afraid that open sourcing might attract more developers? *slow clap*
Yes, trolling again, thank you. Where did I say that? What I did say is that developers shouldn't make decisions concering the development of an overall product such as an operating system because they make them from the wrong perspective.

I afraid that developers would - as they often did in the past in Amiga land - confuse implementations with interfaces, and program against the former, not the latter. Interfaces are best to be documented (unlike Phase 5 and their makings) but not its implementation as it may be necessary to change the latter, though not the former.



Offline bison

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2020, 06:26:46 PM »
Linux worked on cheap, standard hardware. AmigaOs does not.
Only because Hyperion does not want AmigaOS to work on cheap, standard hardware.  If the source code were open-sourced, it would almost certainly be ported to AMD64 and/or ARMv8.
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2020, 06:51:49 PM »
Linux worked on cheap, standard hardware. AmigaOs does not.
Only because Hyperion does not want AmigaOS to work on cheap, standard hardware.  If the source code were open-sourced, it would almost certainly be ported to AMD64 and/or ARMv8.
And why is that desirable? I mean, an Os that does not keep the system "operating" as it lacks elementary features such as memory protection and resource tracking, leave alone multi-core support?

All this beside, what would you gain with access to the original sources - which are about 30% assembler - and depend on the custom hardware of the AmigaOs? Thus, throw a lot away, redo from start, for something where somebody else had done that part of the work already - as in AROS?

Or do you mean AmigaOs 4? That is not even part of the discussion between the two.

AmigaOs is by design non-portable. If you want a portable source, take AROS - or a sane Os, such as Linux - in first place.
 

Offline cgutjahr

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2020, 06:53:22 PM »
If you want to know who develops [p96], ask Jens. If you want to contribute, ask Jens. He's probably looking for someone to drive his product because I cannot.
So while you argued back in 2016 that P96 would end up in project management hell if it would be open sourced, it turns out there's likely no project management at all now that Jens controls it? Who could have seen that coming? It's not like we had evidence that Jens sucks at software project management, right? Oh wait, we did.

Let's keep that in mind for later.

A *lot*, because that is exactly what makes the difference. We do not have a critical mass of developers, we do not have sufficient numbers of commercial players.
The "numbers of developers" required to develop the OS doesn't depend on its proprietary or open status. Your team stays the same, so do your goals.

A lot would change, and I'm really stunned that you don't see that. We would not have one version of AmigaOs, but multiple.
Again: no we wouldn't. We would have one AmigaOS developed by one team. And maybe a fork or two using a different name, trying out different things. More likely just forks of individual components/libraries, because building Kickstart or entire distributions is a lot of work probably not all that simple.

Now let's compare that to the current situation: We have AmigaOS 3.9, Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and "BoingBag 4". Plus a whole bunch of what I refer to as 'Workbench distributions', like Amikit, AKReal, Coffin and UltimateWB. There's an icon.library replacement and an updated graphics (?) library on Aminet and Cosmos must have 'optimized' every single part of Kickstart by now. And that's just the 68k side of things...

Where's the actual change you keep warning us about?

To be able to keep development possible, we need to cut *down* the complexity, not increase it.
Obviously, the official OS sets the standards - you're not responsible for forks. Complexity problem solved. You're not trying to stay compatible with Peter's icon library, Cosmos' graphics optimizations or the non-standard init process of the Vampire right now, so why pretend you'd have to start doing that once AmigaOS is open source?

Which rules? Once it is open source, the ghost is out of the bottle.
Technically, it already is open source. I bet I can find the source on the net in less than a minute. And nobody's taking down projects like BB4 or Coffin (while, ironically, *your* project's right to exist is questioned in a court battle).

The rules are set by the party controlling the trademark. It really is that simple. Once that party ceases to exist or does what all of its predecessors did - i.e., fail miserably, creating tons of damage in the process - we might get the anarchy you're so afraid of. But we had that anarchy happen even without an open source OS, so once more: not different at all.

I would say that AmigaOs would be better if we had a specialist in UI design (and not a lawer) who would be central in decision making, yes.
A specialist in UI design is a developer of course. I was using the term as a shorthand for "people who work on the OS" - that includes a UI interface designer just like it includes the beta test coordinator or the translations/documentation people.

What we would need is a management that believes in its product (and not its money it may or may not make).
You're doing what you always do in these discussions: You admit the status quo is not good at all, but then go on to claim that a proprietary development path at least has the potential to improve things - while an open source approach will definitely kill and destroy everything and has zero chance of success.

So let me get this straight: We should trust you, that Ben doesn't completely f?ck up your OS project, like he f?cked up OS4 - half of which is now owned by another party that hates Ben's guts? And the reason we should put this much trust into him is that open source will definitely kill the Amiga?

My head hurts.
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2020, 07:00:30 PM »
I’ve got to agree with Thomas here. Without strong governance there is real risk of fragmentation from an open source model. We’ve suffered from that ever since the beginning of the post-Commodore era: MUI vs ReAction, NSD vs whatever the other thing was, P96 vs CGX, PowerUp vs WarpOS, and, of course, the big one, OS3 vs OS4 vs MorphOS vs AROS. Each of those splits has diminished the ability of the community to move the platform forward as a whole because each one has made it harder to achieve a critical mass of sustaining users.

Why is critical mass important? Look at what happened with AWeb. We had an open-source web browser! At the time it was the thing we needed most to make our Amigas usable in the modern world! And it fizzled out after just a few maintenance releases. If OS3 fragments we could see the same thing. As much as we want it to be true, open source isn’t a panacea for every situation. Instead of one slow-moving branch we could have 4 dead branches. Given the choice I’ll take the slow-moving branch, thank you.

Thomas is also right that a developer driven model is rarely one for long-term success. Go into a business class in any university and they’ll teach you that product development has to be driven by user needs. Remember the story from the pre-Commodore days when management essentially locked RJ Michal in a room to make him write the Intuition documentation? That was a user-centric decision. We don’t have that kind of structured, considered decision making anymore, and I honestly think we suffer for it. We all like to tinker and customize our systems and there is enormous overlap between developers and users in the community, but it’s not 1:1. I’m one of those idiots who could never get a handle on coding and as much as I love getting under the hood of my system there’s a limit as to how much I’m willing to do. I’ve tried so many times to like Linux, but it’s just a complete disaster beneath the surface. I don’t want to see the Amiga go the same way.

Ultimately, we all want the platform to be free from the corporate and legal shenanigans that are holding back development. I’m just skeptical that open sourcing the OS is the solution to that problem. Unfortunately, I don’t know what other solutions there are. What a mess!
 
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guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2020, 07:23:26 PM »
A *lot*, because that is exactly what makes the difference. We do not have a critical mass of developers, we do not have sufficient numbers of commercial players.
The "numbers of developers" required to develop the OS doesn't depend on its proprietary or open status. Your team stays the same, so do your goals.
No, but the amount of work does. Is this so hard to understand? We *must* cut complexity down, and we cannot in an open source world. See Linux.

Again: no we wouldn't. We would have one AmigaOS developed by one team.
Yeah, right. (irony sign on) Plus a lot of trolling, plus a lot of "here is my branch of library YZX, take it or leave it", plus a lot of complains "waaa, they didn't take my patch". Thanks, but I guess we do better without that in a more ordered process.

More likely just forks of individual components/libraries, because building Kickstart or entire distributions is a lot of work probably not all that simple.
Yes, plus software of the form "requires library from A, not B". Thank you, great. Not that we don't have enough problems of this kind.

Now let's compare that to the current situation: We have AmigaOS 3.9, Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and "BoingBag 4". Plus a whole bunch of what I refer to as 'Workbench distributions', like Amikit, AKReal, Coffin and UltimateWB. There's an icon.library replacement and an updated graphics (?) library on Aminet and Cosmos must have 'optimized' every single part of Kickstart by now. And that's just the 68k side of things...
There is a consistency from 3.1 to 3.5 to 3.9 to 3.1.4. We tried our best to keep interfaces consistent and working, and more from 3.9 will work on 3.2.

I have absolutely no problem with workbench distributions. Keep them alive, that's all fine.

Where's the actual change you keep warning us about?
That this is not handle-able by a small team. It creates a lot of noise, binds a lot of resources, and lacks a direction.

Obviously, the official OS sets the standards - you're not responsible for forks.
Yeah, right. Except for the whining. "Waaa, your Os is broken, it does not work with software A". "But that requires the fork from B, not our base" "Waa, you suck".  Thank you, we already have enough of this bull.


Complexity problem solved.
No, created.

You're not trying to stay compatible with Peter's icon library, Cosmos' graphics optimizations or the non-standard init process of the Vampire right now, so why pretend you'd have to start doing that once AmigaOS is open source?
You'll see what will happen if we don't. Another fork.


Technically, it already is open source. I bet I can find the source on the net in less than a minute.
That isn't open source. It is piracy. Besides, it covers 3.1, not 3.1.4.1, which is quite a difference, despite the small difference in version numbering.

The rules are set by the party controlling the trademark. It really is that simple. Once that party ceases to exist or does what all of its predecessors did - i.e., fail miserably, creating tons of damage in the process - we might get the anarchy you're so afraid of. But we had that anarchy happen even without an open source OS, so once more: not different at all.
That's clear from the beginning. I can only express my opinion, though not influence the process.


A specialist in UI design is a developer of course.
Not in the sense I was using this term.

What we would need is a management that believes in its product (and not its money it may or may not make).
You're doing what you always do in these discussions: You admit the status quo is not good at all, but then go on to claim that a proprietary development path at least has the potential to improve things - while an open source approach will definitely kill and destroy everything and has zero chance of success.
And you do what you always do: Pretending that open sourcing the Os would solve these problems. It does not. It creates more problems. I do not need more problems, I need less.


So let me get this straight: We should trust you, that Ben doesn't completely f?ck up your OS project, like he f?cked up OS4 - half of which is now owned by another party that hates Ben's guts? And the reason we should put this much trust into him is that open source will definitely kill the Amiga?
I'm not "pro Ben", I'm "pro controlled development, no matter who does it". That is quite a difference.
 

Offline cgutjahr

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2020, 07:29:04 PM »
MUI vs ReAction, NSD vs whatever the other thing was, P96 vs CGX, PowerUp vs WarpOS, and, of course, the big one, OS3 vs OS4 vs MorphOS vs AROS.
  • All of those were created despite AmigaOS being closed source
  • All of those were created while there was no active development of the official OS
  • All of those were resolved the second the official rights holder declared one of them to be the official solution

Quote
Why is critical mass important? Look at what happened with AWeb. We had an open-source web browser!
We also had an open source DPaint! Look at what happened! What do mean, "it was totally outdated by the time its source was released"?

Quote
As much as we want it to be true, open source isn’t a panacea for every situation.
Nobody's claiming that. But the situation is really, really fucked up. And Thomas and you are arguing "let's continue to try what we tried countless times in the last 25 years, one of these days it has to work, right?".

Quote
Instead of one slow-moving branch we could have 4 dead branches.
Why? Because Thomas and his guys rage-quit when the sources are released?

Quote
Thomas is also right that a developer driven model is rarely one for long-term success.
"Long term success"? We're discussing AmigaOS 3.x - where do you want it to go in 2020?
 

Offline First Ninja

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2020, 07:30:57 PM »
@kolla - I'm just your friendly neighborhood AmigaOS user and not a moderator. That being said, of course everyone should think about their manners and refrain from being snark. Generally speaking, if your moral compass shows kittens and cuddles you usually know you are on the right track.
 

Offline giZmo350

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2020, 07:45:41 PM »
@Matt_H

SPOT ON! Bravo!  ;D

@Thomas Richter

"There is a consistency from 3.1 to 3.5 to 3.9 to 3.1.4. We tried our best to keep interfaces consistent and working, and more from 3.9 will work on 3.2. "

That is THE most important way forward IMHO!  8)

« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 09:29:00 PM by giZmo350 »
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Offline cgutjahr

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2020, 07:52:02 PM »
Plus a lot of trolling, plus a lot of "here is my branch of library YZX, take it or leave it", plus a lot of complains "waaa, they didn't take my patch". Thanks, but I guess we do better without that in a more ordered process.
[...]
Yeah, right. Except for the whining. "Waaa, your Os is broken, it does not work with software A". "But that requires the fork from B, not our base" "Waa, you suck".
So, when you say "anarchy" you actually mean people not being nice to you?

We *must* cut complexity down
You're not talking about complexity, you're talking about variety. Are you arguing we need to kill AROS 68k and Cloanto's distributions?

There is a consistency from 3.1 to 3.5 to 3.9 to 3.1.4
You're dodging the actual question. Let's ignore the lack of Reaction and say 3.9 and 3.1.4 are the same - that still leaves Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and BoingBag 4 plus the individual patches and libraries released on the Net. The existence of all these branches did not stop you from releasing 3.1.4, did it? So where's the limit before we loose you? Five, six, seven branches?

And you do what you always do: Pretending that open sourcing the Os would solve these problems.
I'm saying it at least gives us a chance of fixing these problems, while what you are doing right now just feeds the lawyers and is guaranteed to create tons more problems when (not if) Hyperion collapses.

I'm not "pro Ben", I'm "pro controlled development, no matter who does it".
Right now, Ben is controlling development - and you prefer that to open source. So as far as this discussion is concerned you are pro Ben. Which means you should be able to explain why Ben's control over your project doesn't mean it's doomed.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2020, 08:08:05 PM »
  • All of those were created despite AmigaOS being closed source
  • All of those were created while there was no active development of the official OS
  • All of those were resolved the second the official rights holder declared one of them to be the official solution
All those where created because there was a disfunctional management at CBM who did not see the problems, *while* there was no active development, and a blant dummy management decision without all parties on the table.

How would open source solve these problems? Somebody in the wild making a decision - then some fraction accepts the solution, the other part creates a fork. Why is that a solution?

As said, the solution is to collect the knowledge we have in Amiga-land, form some kind of structure within which we create consensus, and then make decisions. This is how the world works in my business. Guess how JPEG was created? By competing parties finding consensus on a solution. "Consensus" does not mean that everybody is happy. It means "everybody is happy enough and the solution is acceptable, probably not brilliant, but acceptable".

Discussion within such a forum, with all the trolls outside the door, would have avoided a lot of the mess Heinz created with NSD. It would have probably found a solution for the GUI that is based on existing Os components like boopsis, and a functional management would have triggered an in-house creation of an RTG system.

You make the same error again: Pretending that Open Source solves these problems. It does not . People talking to each other, creating a solution by consensus would. Keeping this controlled, with a moderator and a management defining a direction would. Exclude people that have a big mouth would.

Nobody's claiming that. But the situation is really, really fucked up. And Thomas and you are arguing "let's continue to try what we tried countless times in the last 25 years, one of these days it has to work, right?".
I don't think I'm saying this in this thread. I'm saying "Open source is not the solution, here is a better one". Actually, I proposed one. Forgotten?

All this beside, it is pretty much academic as I have little to say in whatever happens. Hyperion's process is flawed, but Cloanto is either living in a dream world, or does not understand how this "community" works, or just fools with you.

Seriously, why should anyone create an open source fork *besides* Cloanto, and make this accessible, bypassing Cloanto. Why shouldn't I? I mean, after all, there is no inside knowledge within Cloanto, same as Hyperion (probably except Costel).

Why? Because Thomas and his guys rage-quit when the sources are released?
My stress level is already high enough. Why should I continue fighting with trolls about details and why their patch is not accepted? If Cloanto believes I'm taking this job, they bet wrong, that is for sure.

"Long term success"? We're discussing AmigaOS 3.x - where do you want it to go in 2020?
We talk long-term success, yes. A sustainable model.

The funny part is, two companies fighting about work-power they do not own, imposing a development model upon them, without giving much back and just creating fuzz.
 
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Offline Minuous

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2020, 09:15:20 PM »
You're dodging the actual question. Let's ignore the lack of Reaction and say 3.9 and 3.1.4 are the same - that still leaves Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and BoingBag 4 plus the individual patches and libraries released on the Net. The existence of all these branches did not stop you from releasing 3.1.4, did it? So where's the limit before we loose you? Five, six, seven branches?

BB3&4 is not really a "branch" of the OS. It is basically just a collection of bug fixes and optimizations. It does not introduce any incompatibilities. There are no new APIs, and no software that requires it to run.