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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Tygre on February 02, 2020, 11:34:55 PM

Title: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Tygre on February 02, 2020, 11:34:55 PM
Hi all!

Finally, the end is in sight? ;)

"Business representatives of Hyperion, Cloanto, and C-A Acquisitions, Inc. have been engaged in several days of intensive face-to-face settlement discussions in Europe geared toward a global resolution of all claims [...]. Hyperion, Cloanto, and C-A Acquisitions, Inc. are finalizing changes to a negotiated term sheet, which they anticipate will soon be executed."

One more week! (http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2020-02-00011-EN.html) ;D

Cheers!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 03, 2020, 09:49:03 PM
It would be most welcome to have this nonsense resolved.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: outlawal2 on February 04, 2020, 01:39:59 PM
Yeah until the NEXT round of AmigaLand stupidity begins...
No end to the drama and ridiculousness that IS our AmigaLand... 
Pretty close to the ONLY thing that has remained a constant with the Amiga right from day one back in the Commodore days.  The only thing that has changed are the names...

<smh>
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 10, 2020, 05:18:22 PM
One more week!
And then?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 10, 2020, 11:43:45 PM
@kolla

No change since I posted what these documents concern:
Source (https://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8479#100884)

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 11, 2020, 02:26:55 PM
@thread

update:

English (http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2020-02-00037-EN.html)

German (http://amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2020-02-00037-DE.html)

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 11, 2020, 04:25:11 PM
So just hot air as usual.
How utterly unsurprising, tit-to-tit talks with Hyperion never worked for anyone before either.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: redfox on February 11, 2020, 06:51:23 PM
Quote
Settlement discussions between Cloanto and Hyperion aborted

Wow, big surprise  ::)

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: goldfish on February 11, 2020, 10:32:03 PM
At this rate Morphos will be the next true NG amiga os. Well done to both parties for screwing what little is left in AMiga OS.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 12, 2020, 07:00:10 AM
Well done to both parties for screwing what little is left in AMiga OS.
Soon enough it will be time for Hyperion to play the "bankrupt, but not bankrupt" game again, this time in the Netherlands. There are some good reasons to move to the Netherlands, for example some Caribbean islands outside of European juristictions... Belgium does not have such.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 12, 2020, 03:48:26 PM
Oh, for f***’s sake! What the hell are either of them going to gain by backing out of talks?

They’ve probably blown through well over 5 years’ worth of revenue on lawyers’ fees at this point.

They’re fighting over CRUMBS! If they would stop this idiocy they might at least get a sandwich now and then.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: F1Lupo on February 12, 2020, 09:40:40 PM
I guess amiga.com will be forever stuck on " Do you remember when Amiga meant friend? We do. "
 :( >:(
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: sean_sk on February 13, 2020, 03:48:00 AM
Oh, for f***’s sake! What the hell are either of them going to gain by backing out of talks?

They’ve probably blown through well over 5 years’ worth of revenue on lawyers’ fees at this point.

They’re fighting over CRUMBS! If they would stop this idiocy they might at least get a sandwich now and then.

Because they're all a bunch of knuckleheads......both sides! Cloanto and Hyperion should do the Amiga community a service and pass on their IP's to someone who can actually get the job done, and then leave and go do something else......perhaps some real work like looking after a farm, milking cows and driving tractors.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 13, 2020, 06:09:30 AM
Right. When reporting a robbery, it’s important to be fair and balanced and blame both sides equally.

Knuckleheads.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 13, 2020, 09:53:59 PM
Right. When reporting a robbery, it’s important to be fair and balanced and blame both sides equally.

Knuckleheads.

And which of the inanely litigious companies do you think should not be blamed for this mess?

No one is benefitting from this. Not either of them, not other developers, not customers. No one.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 14, 2020, 11:02:58 AM
And which of the inanely litigious companies do you think should not be blamed for this mess?
Claonto.

I am not a huge Cloanto fan per se, but wow are there are lot of misconceptions about what Cloanto's contributions have been over the years - they are accused of "milking" despite financing and supporting development of UAE through the years. As well as other projects.

Quote
No one is benefitting from this. Not either of them, not other developers, not customers. No one.

Certain individuals at Hyperion benefit from having a semi-operational shell company.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 14, 2020, 09:07:35 PM
Well, that's part of why this is such a disaster. Both companies have delivered very important products. I want them to continue to do so, but this idiocy is preventing that.

Even if there are individuals who ordinarily benefit from Hyperion's bizarre shell-corporation status, these lawsuits are eating away all of their revenue. They're sure not benefiting now.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 15, 2020, 09:23:16 AM
Well, that's part of why this is such a disaster. Both companies have delivered very important products. I want them to continue to do so, but this idiocy is preventing that.

The trouble is much deeper than this. This is not only about two competing companies (or "companies", in case of Hyperion). It is a matter of the legal entanglements, and it is a matter of development culture and product definition. Yes, I should really stop posting because this creates another shit storm, but nevertheless, some food for thought:

Cloanto seems to prefer an "Open source" development model, with everyone able to take or contribute to AmigaOs, releasing its sources. Trouble with that is that I would not even know how Hyperion might be able to deliver that. They don't have as many rights on AmigaOs as may be needed for this step. Thus, it would be necessary to hunt down all contributers, and negotiate with them. So, who is going to do that? Who still has the contracts from back then? For example, for the 3.9 contracts? Do they even allow opening the sources? Can the authors even be reached anymore? Contracts had been negotiated individually, so there is certainly some variance in them.

There are sources for which there is no publication right (the "narrator.device" we have, but cannot publish as it would require negotiations with SoftVoice, Inc, who does not want to give it away  - been there, done that), and there are contributions in the Os for which Hyperion does not have the sources ("LoadModule" does not exist in source code form), and contributions for which Hyperion does have sources, but no clear statement other than "ready to publish in binary form" concerning its sources.

So that is a big pile of work, and it requires an expert in legal matters and an insider in the development history of AmigaOs to allow this. Thus, this "Cloanto dream" may just be a nice press release to "look nice to some users" and push the responsibility for this not happening into the direction of Hyperion, but the story is much more complicated than this.

Concerning the development model: This is another story. Cloanto seems to believe that it is a good idea that "the community" drives "development", they take a snapshot from time to time, put a nice box and a binder around it and sell the result. Nice model, but how to prevent that anyone can do the same who does not agree with "their branch"? Why shouldn't I publish "my branch" of AmigaOs then? What happens - which is likely - that multiple branches of AmigaOs came to existence?

Trouble with this model is: AmigaOs is not Linux - Linux has several important companies - yes, commercial entitities - that drive the process. Companies like Google and intel, AMD, network hosters and so on contribute a lot more than just individuals (shocking?), and they have an agenda. AmigaOs is "a bunch of hackers" (not excluding myself) that do not necessarily define a direction.Thus, if we end up with multiple AmigaOs flavours, how would it be possible to create products on such a diverse platform, if you cannot depend on "which version of the Os" the user has avaialble?

In my opinion, this makes software development impossible, as there are no stable interfaces to depend upon anymore, and it makes hardware development impossible, since there is no stable Os to depend upon anymore. This type of "erosion" we already see today: Vampire team being unwilling to offer such simple interfaces as autoconf, similar problems on the icomp side, causing all sorts of compatibility problems.

If you believe that a closed model is "undemocratic", I disagree. This is not "dictatorship". Democraty does not mean "everybody does what (s)he likes", but "finding consensus" and "finding compromizes" between multiple interests.

A good model, if you ask me, would be to hand over control to a "board", with multiple interested parties on the board, then negotiating on such board what the direction should be, then drive the process from there. I do have experience with such constructions - being a member of a board called SC29WG1, better known under the name of JPEG, which is also its most important "product", as in "standard" - so this model is doable. It is hard, though. But it does not mean "open sourcing anything", and "everybody does as he pleases". This would give everyone a voice, but also give AmigaOs a direction, which I consider quite important to create a platform that allows development of software and hardware.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 15, 2020, 10:52:23 AM
It is quite possible to only open source what legally can be open sourced, and leave the rest closed sourced. This is exactly how it works with operation systems like macOS and even Windows. In time, closed source components can be replaced with open source components, if that is desirable, and by user’s choice.

Regarding rights and licenses, it is just as questionable that all of them were transferable to post-commodore owners in the first place, it can be just as “illegal” for Hyperion...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 15, 2020, 11:06:37 AM
It is quite possible to only open source what legally can be open sourced, and leave the rest closed sourced.
And who attempts to find this out what can be open sourced? And how?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 15, 2020, 12:38:14 PM
Who? The willing party, Cloanto. How? By research and contacting original owner/authors. As I am sure you are aware, most of the source files do have copyright and license information.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 15, 2020, 01:36:00 PM
@Thomas Richter

Quote
A good model, if you ask me, would be to hand over control to a "board", with multiple interested parties on the board, then negotiating on such board what the direction should be, then drive the process from there.

In essence this is currently a method employed by ExecSG through their steering committee, with the obvious comparison of multiple visions being discusssed.

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 15, 2020, 03:24:51 PM
As I am sure you are aware, most of the source files do have copyright and license information.
Which is  not at all accurate, and neither up to date. Don't be naive. For example, the intuition.library has all (c) CBM in it, though in the form we use it, it is a port from the original intuition sources made by Peter Cherna. Same with all other files - more or less every file has been at least touched by me, without leaving my copyright all over the place. That will be a big hunt down of svn logging messages, at best, and a big hunt trying to contact the contributors, and another hunt to find out under which conditions they contributed. Whether Cloanto (who?) has the man-power or the knowledge to do this is just another question. If you ask me, this is nothing but a big PR-gag from Cloanto.

If you want open source, go AROS, no problems like that attached.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 15, 2020, 03:43:26 PM
Your contributions are irrelevant to the topic of open sourcing OS 3.1 - of course there will have to be a new start, again. I have been saying this all along.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 15, 2020, 04:17:46 PM
@Thomas Richter

Quote
This is not only about two competing companies (or "companies", in case of Hyperion)

I hate to ask, but are you assuming the casual reader of these affairs understands what you mean by putting "companies" in double quotes when speaking about "Hyperion"?

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 15, 2020, 04:27:43 PM
Open sourcing 3.1? What would be the good of that? It's been obsolete for decades. Plus the 3.1 sources have already been floating around the net for years, no one has done anything much useful with them.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 15, 2020, 05:30:14 PM
No purpose for you perhaps, but then why would you care one way or the other?
People have been doing things with the OS 3.1 sources, but keeping it private. Except you and Gulliver of course, you had no issues releasing various leaked v42 components in BB3+4, legal or not.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 15, 2020, 06:10:39 PM
Quote
Linux has several important companies - yes, commercial entitities - that drive the process.
Linux didn't start out this way.

Quote
AmigaOs is "a bunch of hackers"
This is how Linux started.

Quote
if we end up with multiple AmigaOs flavours, how would it be possible to create products on such a diverse platform, if you cannot depend on "which version of the Os" the user has avaialble?
Target the dominant version.  In the Linux world, there are things that run on Ubuntu that aren't going to run on Void.  People who want a high level of software compatibility use the more dominant distributions.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 15, 2020, 06:19:57 PM
Quote
Who? The willing party, Cloanto. How? By research and contacting original owner/authors. As I am sure you are aware, most of the source files do have copyright and license information.
I'd be surprised if they haven't already done a lot of this.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 15, 2020, 07:26:18 PM
Quote
If you believe that a closed model is "undemocratic", I disagree. This is not "dictatorship". Democraty does not mean "everybody does what (s)he likes", but "finding consensus" and "finding compromizes" between multiple interests.

Look at your own team then - it consists exactly of people who have been doing whatever they liked, even when it meant distributing AmigaOs components that are copyrighted and closed source. And I have been told by several people who are officially involved with OS development, that the software license is to be ignored. Well, duh. So clearly legality and morals means nothing for neither the OS team nor Hyperion, and we are back to everyone doing whatever the f they want, share and enjoy. As long as you’re one of cool guys. If not, expect all kinds of threats, from white knights and “officials”.

The consensus has been clear and obvious for years - Amiga OS should be made freely available for anyone to alter, hack, modify, compile, develop and distribute as she or he likes, without having to worry about legal nonsense.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on February 15, 2020, 09:07:27 PM
Quote
Who? The willing party, Cloanto. How? By research and contacting original owner/authors. As I am sure you are aware, most of the source files do have copyright and license information.
I'd be surprised if they haven't already done a lot of this.

No, they haven't.

I have attempted to reach some in the past, as an individual. And it is a legal mess: some people have passed away, and that makes things even harder.

The problem is that there is no consensus at all: everyone and their cat want a different thing. That is why we have companies fighting each other, users going different routes, and amigans trolling other amigans.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 15, 2020, 09:29:59 PM
I have attempted to reach some in the past, as an individual. And it is a legal mess: some people have passed away, and that makes things even harder.

So how do Hyperion get away with it? They have contacts to “the other side”?

Quote
The problem is that there is no consensus at all: everyone and their cat want a different thing. That is why we have companies fighting each other, users going different routes, and amigans trolling other amigans.

Exactly, there is no consensus and never will be, so what is the point in pretending.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 15, 2020, 11:29:50 PM
This is just Thomas voicing his dislike for open source again, and bringing up the same old FUD. No, open source does not mean "everybody does what he wants". It means Mr. Richter and his team  could work on an official AmigaOS branch - without having to team up with a company he himself accuses of pirating old versions of AmigaOS - while other people could work on CosmOS, or AROS, or MorphOS and would be largely ignored because they're not 'official'.

Quote
A good model, if you ask me, would be to hand over control to a "board", with multiple interested parties on the board, then negotiating on such board what the direction should be, then drive the process from there
That would only be a good model if the members on that board would actually pay developers - which is not going to happen (aka the Hyperion approach) or it's going to result in astronomical pricing for the OS and micro-updates you have to pay for (aka the A-EONkit approach).

AmigaOS development needs to be developer driven, obviously. Whoever controls the trademark (in an open source model) or the IP rights (in a closed source model) should get some input  of course: release cycles, desired features etc. But the idea of unpaid developers taking orders from anybody sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on February 16, 2020, 03:37:56 AM
@cgutjahr

People use AmigaOS because it works better on their hardware, not because it is official or not. There have been numerous much better Operating Systems for the Amiga from a technical point of view (Linux and NetBSD), but they fail to deliver the perfomance users expect on anemic hardware. Add to that the nostalgia factor. So competing OSes on Amiga hardware are nothing new and the fault is not somewhere else but theirs to carry.

I could work for Atari, Apple or your grocery shop just around the corner, I don't care what company drives AmigaOS. What I do care is my hobby, and have someone that supports it.

Hyperion is absolutely flawed on many fronts, but they at least give us the freedom to decide the route the OS should take, and offer a basic support for that. Cloanto does not offer anything at all. They have never approached us with any sort of plan or proposal. But hey, if you are happy enough with Amiga Forever then be my guest. It is your hobby too.

It is simple, those two companies are expected to keep doing what they have been doing, everything else is mere fantasy right now:

Hyperion will continue selling AmigaOS
Cloanto will continue selling Amiga Forever

Then as a customer you can use your wallet to vote for your choice. That is the best you can do.

I do hope Open Source comes to AmigaOS, I even believe it will inevitably arrive, but it will not be in the timeframe nor shape people expect it to happen. And for certain, some entity formed by developers willing to work on the OS must take desitions on the roadmap, or otherwise it will be just another dead OS project in github/sourceforge.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 07:01:57 AM
And I have been told by several people who are officially involved with OS development, that the software license is to be ignored. Well, duh.
Discussion is one thing. Lying into the face of everyone by making such claims is another. Nobody told everyone to ignore licenses. Actually, if we had been told to ignore licenses, we would have delivered Reaction as part of 3.1.4 right away. Kolla, this is slander, and it has been reported to the moderators.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 07:30:44 AM
This is just Thomas voicing his dislike for open source again, and bringing up the same old FUD.
Go to my github page, see how much I dislike open source. Please do not bring up claims like that. There are places where Open Source works, and there are places where it does not. It depends on what you want.

Linux is a different market, and it works differently. Linux as operating system is doable because there it runs on off-the-shelve hardware, and it has a critical mass of hardware and software to pick from, and a sufficient number of professional players that are part of the game that drive it.

AmigaOs does not have anything like that. With Linux, you can get away with a gazillion of desktops to select from because its users do not care too much (all power users), consistent look-and-feel is irrelevant for the server market (where the professionals sell), and there are sufficient numbers of developers to drive the game into multiple directions.

None of that is true on the Amiga. If we go open source, we have soon a diverging operating system, an unstable platform and no solid software or hardware ground to work with. This destroys the platform. The average developer can no longer base his software on a stable ground (which flavour of AmigaOs do you use today?) and the average hardware guy neither (needs autoconf 2.1 or better). It is good that we have rules how the game works, and everybody can depend on the rules.

No, open source does not mean "everybody does what he wants". It means Mr. Richter and his team  could work on an official AmigaOS branch - without having to team up with a company he himself accuses of pirating old versions of AmigaOS - while other people could work on CosmOS, or AROS, or MorphOS and would be largely ignored because they're not 'official'.
I'm just sad about the naivity of some people that believe that the Linux model would simply carry over, without understanding that this is a different market - it is a too tiny a market to allow the kind of "a separate distribution and a separate GUI toolkit for anyone" and "you never know how the print command is called today" model.
 
Second, I do not mind to much who decices where the ride goes, as long as there is a direction of the ride. It does not have to be mine, I'll probably find my niche. But what I do mind is that we do not get incompatible branches of software because it completely destroys the user experience AmigaOs is designed around. Simplicity. If you ever tried to install a printer on Linux, you learn what's wrong with it. If you ever tried to install custom hardware on Linux, you learn what's wrong with it. Overboarding complexity beyond reasonable control of the user.

That's all fine for power users like you and me, but it is demanding too much for the average guy. Linux is an Os from freaks for freaks, from professionals for professionals, but AmigaOs is not. Linux will never be a successful desktop operating system, simply because it does not have to be, and its customers and players are elsewhere and do not need it to be.

Note well, these lines are written on a Linux laptop, with customized kernel, with customized keyboard, with customized systemd. I know how to run this beast, but I understand why many other people stay away from it and choose Windows. It is by construction how the Linux world works. It is not even a weakness in its "market", but it keeps "average guys" as users out - those users that exactly make up the Amiga users.

That would only be a good model if the members on that board would actually pay developers - which is not going to happen (aka the Hyperion approach) or it's going to result in astronomical pricing for the OS and micro-updates you have to pay for (aka the A-EONkit approach).

AmigaOS development needs to be developer driven, obviously. Whoever controls the trademark (in an open source model) or the IP rights (in a closed source model) should get some input  of course: release cycles, desired features etc. But the idea of unpaid developers taking orders from anybody sounds like a recipe for disaster.
For me its harder for getting paid than not to be paid, but that is another matter. There are probably other forms of payment that could be made. Other than that, you don't seem to offer any real argument to back up your claim, do you?

No, I do not believe that developer driven is the right way. If you do it "developer driven", you create monsters like "systemd", "pulseaudio" or "cups" nobody sane in his mind is able to use. That's all nice for professional server applications, but in the hand of users, these constructions are a disaster.

Then again, I do not see much of a problem with the way how it works today either: If you want to go open source on Amiga, do it. AROS exists, drive it, support it, let it grow, and we'll see how successful it becomes. If you ask me, I do not quite see the point to carry over the constructional weaknesses of AmigaOs into an open source Os instead of doing it right from the beginning, but well, I'm not one of their customers either. If they want to have fun, I believe AROS developers can have more fun without access to AmigaOs sources by avoiding some idiocracies of the original system. Don't do it the same way, do it right.

Thus, you are completely wrong if you state that "I hate open source", you simply don't read my message. The message is that it does not fit to the platform and its users, and it would destroy the very central point of the Amiga experience. Simplicity. That is the point.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 16, 2020, 08:26:48 AM
And I have been told by several people who are officially involved with OS development, that the software license is to be ignored. Well, duh.
Discussion is one thing. Lying into the face of everyone by making such claims is another. Nobody told everyone to ignore licenses. Actually, if we had been told to ignore licenses, we would have delivered Reaction as part of 3.1.4 right away. Kolla, this is slander, and it has been reported to the moderators.

Excuse, but this is no lie - and you very well know it. The software licenses for OS 3.1.4 has quite a few unclear points and quite a few requirements and demands that I find unacceptable. Hence I refuse to buy more copies than the one I did buy (original 3.1.4 with shrink-wrap license not presented at PoS, but after PoS), and only have 3.1.4 installed on a Minimig (still no straight answer from any “official” whether installing and using 3.1.4 on Minimig is in accordance with the license) - yet you have been saying over and over that nothing stops me from buying more copies for my other systems. Also I have been told “who reads licenses anyways” and similar.

If anyone is doing slander here, it is you and not me.

It’s no secret that Gulliver and later Minuous were the ones behind BB3+4 - which also contain components from the leaked source archive - what is the legal status of BB3+4?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 08:32:45 AM
Excuse, but this is no lie - and you very well know it. The software licenses for OS 3.1.4 has quite a few unclear points and quite a few requirements and demands that I find unacceptable.
Then either don't accept it and return your copy, or ask its vendor to clarify the license. It is not to be ignored. But that has been said multiple times by multiple people...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 16, 2020, 08:37:33 AM
I have repeatedly asked the vendor, Hyperion, for clarification on the official support forum, through mail and through the consumer rights channels. No answer. How do one “return” a copy that Hyperion keeps available for me to download? How do one reclaim the money from a seller that does not communicate?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 09:00:03 AM
I have repeatedly asked the vendor, Hyperion, for clarification on the official support forum, through mail and through the consumer rights channels. No answer. How do one “return” a copy that Hyperion keeps available for me to download? How do one reclaim the money from a seller that does not communicate?
Paid by credit card? Check with your credit card issuer. Though it is too late for that by now. But face it: Nobody wants you as customer.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 16, 2020, 12:27:46 PM
Luckily, I am not your customer then. Gulliver wrote some days ago that “the writing is on the wall” and that open sourcing is unavoidable...  he is certainly giving the impression of being part “the team”, having access to code and whatnot. And as usual, Hyperion remains silent.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 16, 2020, 02:47:32 PM
Go to my github page, see how much I dislike open source. Please do not bring up claims like that. There are places where Open Source works, and there are places where it does not. It depends on what you want.
Okay, let me clarify: You don't like having your little babies open sourced. You were against open sourcing P96 - which would have been a tremendously good thing for the Amiga - now you're maintaining it. You are against open sourcing AmigaOS - and you 're the one developing it. I can see a pattern here.

Quote
AmigaOs does not have anything like that.
What does any of this have to do with AmigaOS?

Current situation: Your team develops AmigaOS 3.2. Releases it. Doesn't get paid. Then works on 3.3.

Hypothetical open source scenario: Your team develops AmigaOS 3.2. Releases it, along with a source code archive. Doesn't get paid. Then works on 3.3.

Other than that, there will be only superficial differences between both scenarios, like Cosmos starting a flame war telling people how much your coding skills suck and releasing CosmOS 3.2, and everybody laughing about him.

You're just trying to distract from the simple truth that in reality, nothing much would change by open sourcing AmigaOS.

Are you seriously mentioning "many desktops would arise" and "we would loose consistent look and feel" to tell us how bad open sourcing AmigaOS would be? Have you actually ever used AmigaOS? Do I need to make a list of available desktops, docks and taskbars for you? Or GUI toolkits and Gadtools/ASL patches?

Quote
If we go open source, we have soon a diverging operating system, an unstable platform and no solid software or hardware ground to work with.
You forgot to mention that open source AmigaOS  also abuses his wife and beats his children.

We've always had quasi branches of AmigaOS or parts of it ever since Commodore went down. People were patching their systems to death, installing (allegedly) faster serial drivers and Workbench replacements or replacing major parts of the system with backports from AROS. Guess what? We survived it. And so did AmigaOS.

Quote
It is good that we have rules how the game works, and everybody can depend on the rules.
We would still have rules. You're the only one claiming otherwise.

And If I were a developer relying on "the rules" as defined by you, I'd have started to use Reaction as a GUI toolkit when 3.5/3.9 were released. Then I would have switched back to Gadtools (?) when 3.1.4 came out, now I'd have to rewrite my projects again to switch back to Reaction.

Quote
No, I do not believe that developer driven is the right way.
So how are 3.1.4 and 3.2 developed? Who's making the decisions?

Quote
If you do it "developer driven", you create monsters like "systemd", "pulseaudio" or "cups" nobody sane in his mind is able to use.
So you're saying it would be better for AmigaOS if Ben and Timothy would call the shots instead of you?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: First Ninja on February 16, 2020, 04:33:18 PM
@cgutjahr - please try to be civil about this. I understand you have a different opinion on how to run things, but that doesn't mean you can't be polite. I doubt that you talk to your family and friends the same way you talk to Thomas. Please treat others like you would be treated yourself.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 16, 2020, 05:10:34 PM
Should Thomas be civil too, and abstain from personal attacks against people who don’t share his views, or does he have some sort of carte blanche because of his “position”?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 05:28:46 PM
Okay, let me clarify: You don't like having your little babies open sourced.
Did you look at my github page? There is open source there. If you look in Aminet (hey!), you'll find sources of MuFastRom, and some other of those tools. In source form. There is, erally, open source, though for a different, more disciplined community.

You were against open sourcing P96 - which would have been a tremendously good thing for the Amiga - now you're maintaining it. You are against open sourcing AmigaOS - and you 're the one developing it. I can see a pattern here.
Huh, what? I'm not developing it. I don't know who is, all I'm doing is that whenever I see a bug, I fix it, but that's hardly development. If you want to know who develops it, ask Jens. If you want to contribute, ask Jens. He's probably looking for someone to drive his product because I cannot.

What does any of this have to do with AmigaOS?
A *lot*, because that is exactly what makes the difference. We do not have a critical mass of developers, we do not have sufficient numbers of commercial players.

Current situation: Your team develops AmigaOS 3.2. Releases it. Doesn't get paid. Then works on 3.3.
Other than that, there will be only superficial differences between both scenarios, like Cosmos starting a flame war telling people how much your coding skills suck and releasing CosmOS 3.2, and everybody laughing about him.

You're just trying to distract from the simple truth that in reality, nothing much would change by open sourcing AmigaOS.
A lot would change, and I'm really stunned that you don't see that. We would not have one version of AmigaOs, but multiple. It would be hard to develop any software for anything beyond 3.1 because there wouldn't be a stable ground for it. "Works with library Y, but only from distribution A, not B". It would be hard to get hardware developped for it - "needs ROM from X, not from Y". I'm really stunned that you don't see the difference between "here is the documentation, here is how it works" and "oh well, here is a bunch of software, make your pick, and if it doesn't work, well, wrong combination, but not my problem".

We would have a "KollaOs - motto - I know it better anyhow", and "SpeedGeekOs - but my Os is 0.5% faster than yours", and whatever other stuff. Currently, already about 30-40% of development time is wasted in compatibility issues by products that are written in an inable way. We have a couple of workarounds even in 3.1.4 to keep DOpus happy, to keep Kingkong happy, and others. Now, multiply this by the number of distributions to expect, and we're in a situation where Os development becomes blocked by just hunting down such issues.

This kinna works in Linux because there is a sufficient critical mass to handle such problems, but we have a much smaller bunch of developers. To be able to keep development possible, we need to cut *down* the complexity, not increase it. This program was already started with 3.1.4 (only *one* utility.library, only *one* graphics.library). How would that work with "just another exec" from "we don't do autoconf because we know better" or "just another graphics because we know how to save two cycles from an inner loop". Thank you, there are lots of other more important things to do, and I don't want *my* time wasted with a lot of useless dicussions with people that do not know better, despite what they want to make you believe.

Are you seriously mentioning "many desktops would arise" and "we would loose consistent look and feel" to tell us how bad open sourcing AmigaOS would be? Have you actually ever used AmigaOS? Do I need to make a list of available desktops, docks and taskbars for you? Or GUI toolkits and Gadtools/ASL patches?
See above. Now tell me, how is this going to improve with this complexity even on the Os level? How can we handle this complexity? Who can? How to create software on unstable grounds, without development power available to handle the additional complexity?

You forgot to mention that open source AmigaOS  also abuses his wife and beats his children.
Say, do you want to be taken serious or make a fool of yourself?

We've always had quasi branches of AmigaOS or parts of it ever since Commodore went down. People were patching their systems to death, installing (allegedly) faster serial drivers and Workbench replacements or replacing major parts of the system with backports from AROS. Guess what? We survived it. And so did AmigaOS.
For which definition of "survive"? It made the whole game tremendously difficult, as a couple of these "creations" are road-blocks for particular developments. Are you seriously saying that the situation is going to improve by creating more roadblocks?

We would still have rules. You're the only one claiming otherwise.
Which rules? Once it is open source, the ghost is out of the bottle. "Fuck rules" is probably the only rule I would know from this community.

And If I were a developer relying on "the rules" as defined by you, I'd have started to use Reaction as a GUI toolkit when 3.5/3.9 were released. Then I would have switched back to Gadtools (?) when 3.1.4 came out, now I'd have to rewrite my projects again to switch back to Reaction.
Reaction on your system didn't went away, just we couldn't support it for reasons you know precisely. I'm all happy we can continue to support it now. Nobody was expecting you to rewrite a project - quite the opposite, the interfaces should remain as stated.

So how are 3.1.4 and 3.2 developed? Who's making the decisions?
The wrong people. Developers, like me. Surprised? That's exactly why we need a better process. I'm all for opening up the process, just we couldn't do. We do have RFCs, though not as consistent as I would like, though publishing those would be nice, and having a forum for collecting feed back would be helpful, just someone to filter them because it is just too much for us to handle, and to filter out all the trolling. A bug tracker would be helpful, for the public. Most importantly, end user support would be helpful, because we're definitely the wrong people for that. We would also need people with experience in human interface design, which is badly lacking.

But there is a difference between "open source" and "open processes", "developer driven" and "design driven". Prime example in Amiga land "how to get it wrong" is DefIcons (which caused a lot of trouble and discussion inside the development crew, and also because I'm pretty bad at this as well). It is a nice software architecture, a good data structure, a good abstraction of the search process as a tree, so software-wise, Stephan did a good job - and at the same time, the whole way how its preferences look like is over the head of its users, and the prefs are a binary blob that is impossible to handle without an editor, and hard to adapt and unflexible. A UI to handle its preferences is as charming as the Windows registry editor.

I'm not saying that Stephan back then did a bad job, really not, but he started from the wrong end. But it was, as far as the UI is concerned, not the right software. It was developer driven. I created a lot of internal struggle and fighting to get away with this model and get something simpler and easier to handle, where you just drag your default icons into a drawer, and create the rule files, encoded in ASCII, with a simple Wizard program. So it is scalable, and easy to handle. That caused a lot of trouble and misunderstanding, also due to my un-ability to communicate correctly, yet, I believe strongly that the result is much better and much simpler and much easier to handle and to adopt. The software architecture is probably less "nice", but the result is hopefully a lot more accessible.

I'm not so good at all this as I should, but if you look around, there is a reason why Apple became so successful: It is *exactly not* a developer-driven process, but a UI-driven, design-driven process. That is, in a sense, a good example why open source "is good for developers" is a bad way of designing a system that should be usable by the average guys.

So you're saying it would be better for AmigaOS if Ben and Timothy would call the shots instead of you?
I would say that AmigaOs would be better if we had a specialist in UI design (and not a lawer) who would be central in decision making, yes. What we would need is a management that believes in its product (and not its money it may or may not make). Hyperion is a "company" and not a company because of exactly that. A management with a clear vision is missing, and a mechanism to implement its vision and communicating this vision to the developers. That is missing. You do not get this in the open source world - and then you deliver things like "Gnome3" or "cups". Nice software, bad usability.

I would be hoping that by creating a board that makes decisions, with developers having voices, but also management defining a direction would be a good thing. I would be hoping that the board would be transparent in decision making and communication.

You know, there are good reasons why we have a representative democracy, where - ideally at least - elections allow people to chose between various visions, though representatives care about the details how to implement them. It does not mean "everybody has the freedom to do everything" but "make your choice, but trust the decision makers to do the right thing to respect your vote". Well, at least in theory.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 16, 2020, 06:03:41 PM
So you are afraid that open sourcing might attract more developers? *slow clap*
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 16, 2020, 06:05:16 PM
Quote
Linux as operating system is doable because there it runs on off-the-shelve hardware, and it has a critical mass of hardware and software to pick from, and a sufficient number of professional players that are part of the game that drive it.
Linux did not spring into existence in its current form.  Back in 1994 it did not run on off-the-shelf hardware; it was an arduous task trying to get a graphics card to work with X11.  If you wanted additional software beyond what was in the distribution, you compiled it from source, and it didn't have *any* professional support for hardware or software.

Too many open-source projects have started from nothing and succeeded to think that AmigaOS would somehow fail given the same opportunity.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 06:18:44 PM
Too many open-source projects have started from nothing and succeeded to think that AmigaOS would somehow fail given the same opportunity.
Why would that be? Linux worked on cheap, standard hardware. AmigaOs does not. AmigaOs is a retro-operating system working on retro-hardware. It is more important to preserve the interfaces than to extend it.

You really cannot compare Linux with AmigaOs.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 06:21:19 PM
So you are afraid that open sourcing might attract more developers? *slow clap*
Yes, trolling again, thank you. Where did I say that? What I did say is that developers shouldn't make decisions concering the development of an overall product such as an operating system because they make them from the wrong perspective.

I afraid that developers would - as they often did in the past in Amiga land - confuse implementations with interfaces, and program against the former, not the latter. Interfaces are best to be documented (unlike Phase 5 and their makings) but not its implementation as it may be necessary to change the latter, though not the former.


Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 16, 2020, 06:26:46 PM
Linux worked on cheap, standard hardware. AmigaOs does not.
Only because Hyperion does not want AmigaOS to work on cheap, standard hardware.  If the source code were open-sourced, it would almost certainly be ported to AMD64 and/or ARMv8.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 06:51:49 PM
Linux worked on cheap, standard hardware. AmigaOs does not.
Only because Hyperion does not want AmigaOS to work on cheap, standard hardware.  If the source code were open-sourced, it would almost certainly be ported to AMD64 and/or ARMv8.
And why is that desirable? I mean, an Os that does not keep the system "operating" as it lacks elementary features such as memory protection and resource tracking, leave alone multi-core support?

All this beside, what would you gain with access to the original sources - which are about 30% assembler - and depend on the custom hardware of the AmigaOs? Thus, throw a lot away, redo from start, for something where somebody else had done that part of the work already - as in AROS?

Or do you mean AmigaOs 4? That is not even part of the discussion between the two.

AmigaOs is by design non-portable. If you want a portable source, take AROS - or a sane Os, such as Linux - in first place.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 16, 2020, 06:53:22 PM
If you want to know who develops [p96], ask Jens. If you want to contribute, ask Jens. He's probably looking for someone to drive his product because I cannot.
So while you argued back in 2016 that P96 would end up in project management hell if it would be open sourced, it turns out there's likely no project management at all now that Jens controls it? Who could have seen that coming? It's not like we had evidence that Jens sucks at software project management, right? Oh wait, we did.

Let's keep that in mind for later.

A *lot*, because that is exactly what makes the difference. We do not have a critical mass of developers, we do not have sufficient numbers of commercial players.
The "numbers of developers" required to develop the OS doesn't depend on its proprietary or open status. Your team stays the same, so do your goals.

A lot would change, and I'm really stunned that you don't see that. We would not have one version of AmigaOs, but multiple.
Again: no we wouldn't. We would have one AmigaOS developed by one team. And maybe a fork or two using a different name, trying out different things. More likely just forks of individual components/libraries, because building Kickstart or entire distributions is a lot of work probably not all that simple.

Now let's compare that to the current situation: We have AmigaOS 3.9, Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and "BoingBag 4". Plus a whole bunch of what I refer to as 'Workbench distributions', like Amikit, AKReal, Coffin and UltimateWB. There's an icon.library replacement and an updated graphics (?) library on Aminet and Cosmos must have 'optimized' every single part of Kickstart by now. And that's just the 68k side of things...

Where's the actual change you keep warning us about?

To be able to keep development possible, we need to cut *down* the complexity, not increase it.
Obviously, the official OS sets the standards - you're not responsible for forks. Complexity problem solved. You're not trying to stay compatible with Peter's icon library, Cosmos' graphics optimizations or the non-standard init process of the Vampire right now, so why pretend you'd have to start doing that once AmigaOS is open source?

Which rules? Once it is open source, the ghost is out of the bottle.
Technically, it already is open source. I bet I can find the source on the net in less than a minute. And nobody's taking down projects like BB4 or Coffin (while, ironically, *your* project's right to exist is questioned in a court battle).

The rules are set by the party controlling the trademark. It really is that simple. Once that party ceases to exist or does what all of its predecessors did - i.e., fail miserably, creating tons of damage in the process - we might get the anarchy you're so afraid of. But we had that anarchy happen even without an open source OS, so once more: not different at all.

I would say that AmigaOs would be better if we had a specialist in UI design (and not a lawer) who would be central in decision making, yes.
A specialist in UI design is a developer of course. I was using the term as a shorthand for "people who work on the OS" - that includes a UI interface designer just like it includes the beta test coordinator or the translations/documentation people.

What we would need is a management that believes in its product (and not its money it may or may not make).
You're doing what you always do in these discussions: You admit the status quo is not good at all, but then go on to claim that a proprietary development path at least has the potential to improve things - while an open source approach will definitely kill and destroy everything and has zero chance of success.

So let me get this straight: We should trust you, that Ben doesn't completely f?ck up your OS project, like he f?cked up OS4 - half of which is now owned by another party that hates Ben's guts? And the reason we should put this much trust into him is that open source will definitely kill the Amiga?

My head hurts.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 16, 2020, 07:00:30 PM
I’ve got to agree with Thomas here. Without strong governance there is real risk of fragmentation from an open source model. We’ve suffered from that ever since the beginning of the post-Commodore era: MUI vs ReAction, NSD vs whatever the other thing was, P96 vs CGX, PowerUp vs WarpOS, and, of course, the big one, OS3 vs OS4 vs MorphOS vs AROS. Each of those splits has diminished the ability of the community to move the platform forward as a whole because each one has made it harder to achieve a critical mass of sustaining users.

Why is critical mass important? Look at what happened with AWeb. We had an open-source web browser! At the time it was the thing we needed most to make our Amigas usable in the modern world! And it fizzled out after just a few maintenance releases. If OS3 fragments we could see the same thing. As much as we want it to be true, open source isn’t a panacea for every situation. Instead of one slow-moving branch we could have 4 dead branches. Given the choice I’ll take the slow-moving branch, thank you.

Thomas is also right that a developer driven model is rarely one for long-term success. Go into a business class in any university and they’ll teach you that product development has to be driven by user needs. Remember the story from the pre-Commodore days when management essentially locked RJ Michal in a room to make him write the Intuition documentation? That was a user-centric decision. We don’t have that kind of structured, considered decision making anymore, and I honestly think we suffer for it. We all like to tinker and customize our systems and there is enormous overlap between developers and users in the community, but it’s not 1:1. I’m one of those idiots who could never get a handle on coding and as much as I love getting under the hood of my system there’s a limit as to how much I’m willing to do. I’ve tried so many times to like Linux, but it’s just a complete disaster beneath the surface. I don’t want to see the Amiga go the same way.

Ultimately, we all want the platform to be free from the corporate and legal shenanigans that are holding back development. I’m just skeptical that open sourcing the OS is the solution to that problem. Unfortunately, I don’t know what other solutions there are. What a mess!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 07:23:26 PM
A *lot*, because that is exactly what makes the difference. We do not have a critical mass of developers, we do not have sufficient numbers of commercial players.
The "numbers of developers" required to develop the OS doesn't depend on its proprietary or open status. Your team stays the same, so do your goals.
No, but the amount of work does. Is this so hard to understand? We *must* cut complexity down, and we cannot in an open source world. See Linux.

Again: no we wouldn't. We would have one AmigaOS developed by one team.
Yeah, right. (irony sign on) Plus a lot of trolling, plus a lot of "here is my branch of library YZX, take it or leave it", plus a lot of complains "waaa, they didn't take my patch". Thanks, but I guess we do better without that in a more ordered process.

More likely just forks of individual components/libraries, because building Kickstart or entire distributions is a lot of work probably not all that simple.
Yes, plus software of the form "requires library from A, not B". Thank you, great. Not that we don't have enough problems of this kind.

Now let's compare that to the current situation: We have AmigaOS 3.9, Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and "BoingBag 4". Plus a whole bunch of what I refer to as 'Workbench distributions', like Amikit, AKReal, Coffin and UltimateWB. There's an icon.library replacement and an updated graphics (?) library on Aminet and Cosmos must have 'optimized' every single part of Kickstart by now. And that's just the 68k side of things...
There is a consistency from 3.1 to 3.5 to 3.9 to 3.1.4. We tried our best to keep interfaces consistent and working, and more from 3.9 will work on 3.2.

I have absolutely no problem with workbench distributions. Keep them alive, that's all fine.

Where's the actual change you keep warning us about?
That this is not handle-able by a small team. It creates a lot of noise, binds a lot of resources, and lacks a direction.

Obviously, the official OS sets the standards - you're not responsible for forks.
Yeah, right. Except for the whining. "Waaa, your Os is broken, it does not work with software A". "But that requires the fork from B, not our base" "Waa, you suck".  Thank you, we already have enough of this bull.


Complexity problem solved.
No, created.

You're not trying to stay compatible with Peter's icon library, Cosmos' graphics optimizations or the non-standard init process of the Vampire right now, so why pretend you'd have to start doing that once AmigaOS is open source?
You'll see what will happen if we don't. Another fork.


Technically, it already is open source. I bet I can find the source on the net in less than a minute.
That isn't open source. It is piracy. Besides, it covers 3.1, not 3.1.4.1, which is quite a difference, despite the small difference in version numbering.

The rules are set by the party controlling the trademark. It really is that simple. Once that party ceases to exist or does what all of its predecessors did - i.e., fail miserably, creating tons of damage in the process - we might get the anarchy you're so afraid of. But we had that anarchy happen even without an open source OS, so once more: not different at all.
That's clear from the beginning. I can only express my opinion, though not influence the process.


A specialist in UI design is a developer of course.
Not in the sense I was using this term.

What we would need is a management that believes in its product (and not its money it may or may not make).
You're doing what you always do in these discussions: You admit the status quo is not good at all, but then go on to claim that a proprietary development path at least has the potential to improve things - while an open source approach will definitely kill and destroy everything and has zero chance of success.
And you do what you always do: Pretending that open sourcing the Os would solve these problems. It does not. It creates more problems. I do not need more problems, I need less.


So let me get this straight: We should trust you, that Ben doesn't completely f?ck up your OS project, like he f?cked up OS4 - half of which is now owned by another party that hates Ben's guts? And the reason we should put this much trust into him is that open source will definitely kill the Amiga?
I'm not "pro Ben", I'm "pro controlled development, no matter who does it". That is quite a difference.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 16, 2020, 07:29:04 PM
MUI vs ReAction, NSD vs whatever the other thing was, P96 vs CGX, PowerUp vs WarpOS, and, of course, the big one, OS3 vs OS4 vs MorphOS vs AROS.

Quote
Why is critical mass important? Look at what happened with AWeb. We had an open-source web browser!
We also had an open source DPaint! Look at what happened! What do mean, "it was totally outdated by the time its source was released"?

Quote
As much as we want it to be true, open source isn’t a panacea for every situation.
Nobody's claiming that. But the situation is really, really fucked up. And Thomas and you are arguing "let's continue to try what we tried countless times in the last 25 years, one of these days it has to work, right?".

Quote
Instead of one slow-moving branch we could have 4 dead branches.
Why? Because Thomas and his guys rage-quit when the sources are released?

Quote
Thomas is also right that a developer driven model is rarely one for long-term success.
"Long term success"? We're discussing AmigaOS 3.x - where do you want it to go in 2020?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: First Ninja on February 16, 2020, 07:30:57 PM
@kolla - I'm just your friendly neighborhood AmigaOS user and not a moderator. That being said, of course everyone should think about their manners and refrain from being snark. Generally speaking, if your moral compass shows kittens and cuddles you usually know you are on the right track.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: giZmo350 on February 16, 2020, 07:45:41 PM
@Matt_H

SPOT ON! Bravo!  ;D

@Thomas Richter

"There is a consistency from 3.1 to 3.5 to 3.9 to 3.1.4. We tried our best to keep interfaces consistent and working, and more from 3.9 will work on 3.2. "

That is THE most important way forward IMHO!  8)

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-m4jhJDrRRdE/WlMaa5y1VII/AAAAAAAAB_s/5LcSACUJ9dkWoTgyhovYcwk6G30dN31UQCEwYBhgL/s1600/DSCN3698.JPG)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 16, 2020, 07:52:02 PM
Plus a lot of trolling, plus a lot of "here is my branch of library YZX, take it or leave it", plus a lot of complains "waaa, they didn't take my patch". Thanks, but I guess we do better without that in a more ordered process.
[...]
Yeah, right. Except for the whining. "Waaa, your Os is broken, it does not work with software A". "But that requires the fork from B, not our base" "Waa, you suck".
So, when you say "anarchy" you actually mean people not being nice to you?

We *must* cut complexity down
You're not talking about complexity, you're talking about variety. Are you arguing we need to kill AROS 68k and Cloanto's distributions?

There is a consistency from 3.1 to 3.5 to 3.9 to 3.1.4
You're dodging the actual question. Let's ignore the lack of Reaction and say 3.9 and 3.1.4 are the same - that still leaves Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and BoingBag 4 plus the individual patches and libraries released on the Net. The existence of all these branches did not stop you from releasing 3.1.4, did it? So where's the limit before we loose you? Five, six, seven branches?

And you do what you always do: Pretending that open sourcing the Os would solve these problems.
I'm saying it at least gives us a chance of fixing these problems, while what you are doing right now just feeds the lawyers and is guaranteed to create tons more problems when (not if) Hyperion collapses.

I'm not "pro Ben", I'm "pro controlled development, no matter who does it".
Right now, Ben is controlling development - and you prefer that to open source. So as far as this discussion is concerned you are pro Ben. Which means you should be able to explain why Ben's control over your project doesn't mean it's doomed.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 08:08:05 PM
  • All of those were created despite AmigaOS being closed source
  • All of those were created while there was no active development of the official OS
  • All of those were resolved the second the official rights holder declared one of them to be the official solution
All those where created because there was a disfunctional management at CBM who did not see the problems, *while* there was no active development, and a blant dummy management decision without all parties on the table.

How would open source solve these problems? Somebody in the wild making a decision - then some fraction accepts the solution, the other part creates a fork. Why is that a solution?

As said, the solution is to collect the knowledge we have in Amiga-land, form some kind of structure within which we create consensus, and then make decisions. This is how the world works in my business. Guess how JPEG was created? By competing parties finding consensus on a solution. "Consensus" does not mean that everybody is happy. It means "everybody is happy enough and the solution is acceptable, probably not brilliant, but acceptable".

Discussion within such a forum, with all the trolls outside the door, would have avoided a lot of the mess Heinz created with NSD. It would have probably found a solution for the GUI that is based on existing Os components like boopsis, and a functional management would have triggered an in-house creation of an RTG system.

You make the same error again: Pretending that Open Source solves these problems. It does not . People talking to each other, creating a solution by consensus would. Keeping this controlled, with a moderator and a management defining a direction would. Exclude people that have a big mouth would.

Nobody's claiming that. But the situation is really, really fucked up. And Thomas and you are arguing "let's continue to try what we tried countless times in the last 25 years, one of these days it has to work, right?".
I don't think I'm saying this in this thread. I'm saying "Open source is not the solution, here is a better one". Actually, I proposed one. Forgotten?

All this beside, it is pretty much academic as I have little to say in whatever happens. Hyperion's process is flawed, but Cloanto is either living in a dream world, or does not understand how this "community" works, or just fools with you.

Seriously, why should anyone create an open source fork *besides* Cloanto, and make this accessible, bypassing Cloanto. Why shouldn't I? I mean, after all, there is no inside knowledge within Cloanto, same as Hyperion (probably except Costel).

Why? Because Thomas and his guys rage-quit when the sources are released?
My stress level is already high enough. Why should I continue fighting with trolls about details and why their patch is not accepted? If Cloanto believes I'm taking this job, they bet wrong, that is for sure.

"Long term success"? We're discussing AmigaOS 3.x - where do you want it to go in 2020?
We talk long-term success, yes. A sustainable model.

The funny part is, two companies fighting about work-power they do not own, imposing a development model upon them, without giving much back and just creating fuzz.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 16, 2020, 09:15:20 PM
You're dodging the actual question. Let's ignore the lack of Reaction and say 3.9 and 3.1.4 are the same - that still leaves Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and BoingBag 4 plus the individual patches and libraries released on the Net. The existence of all these branches did not stop you from releasing 3.1.4, did it? So where's the limit before we loose you? Five, six, seven branches?

BB3&4 is not really a "branch" of the OS. It is basically just a collection of bug fixes and optimizations. It does not introduce any incompatibilities. There are no new APIs, and no software that requires it to run.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 16, 2020, 09:26:05 PM
You're not talking about complexity, you're talking about variety. Are you arguing we need to kill AROS 68k and Cloanto's distributions?
No, complexity. Really. How complex does it become to keep a software and hardware working in an unstable environment, and who would be willing to write software against a moving target, and design hardware for it?

You're dodging the actual question. Let's ignore the lack of Reaction and say 3.9 and 3.1.4 are the same - that still leaves Amiga OS 3.1.4, AmigaOS 3.X, AfA OS 4, AROS 68k and BoingBag 4 plus the individual patches and libraries released on the Net. The existence of all these branches did not stop you from releasing 3.1.4, did it? So where's the limit before we loose you? Five, six, seven branches?
3.1 through 3.1.4.1 have the same interfaces. 3.x has the same interfaces than 3.9, or sort of, but it is a pointless product that is behind 3.1.4 in every aspect. Os 4 is a different market (PPC) I do not mind. AfA 4.x I consider a dead horse, and fixes from BB4 were integrated into 3.1.4 as far as possible, I hope. 3.1.4 was the attempt to collect all the fixes, and form a new stable ground, so no, it did not stop anyone, but getting rid of it was part of the motivation.

I'm saying it at least gives us a chance of fixing these problems, while what you are doing right now just feeds the lawyers and is guaranteed to create tons more problems when (not if) Hyperion collapses.
It may fix some things, at the expense of creating a lot of other problems, and ignoring some problems that remain unfixed, and become unfixable on the way.

Right now, Ben is controlling development - and you prefer that to open source.
Well, I would be hoping that there would be somewhat more control in the technical direction level, and less control on the IP level, and I do not prefer "open source development", but "a more transparent development", so that is not quite the same.

So as far as this discussion is concerned you are pro Ben. Which means you should be able to explain why Ben's control over your project doesn't mean it's doomed.
No, the world is not black and white. Meaning I'm against open source does not mean I'm for Ben, that is just naive. Cloanto, however, is either acting foolish, or is trying to fool you. If they really want to go where they claim, they are destroying their product and their market, just for the attempt at looking nice.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 16, 2020, 10:37:10 PM
Cloanto, however
For somebody who's constantly complaining about trolling you sure love to comment on other people's intention, work or competence. Any mud fests with Gunnar recently? Or public declarations that Cloanto is distributing illegal versions of P96?

Not sure why you keep referring to Cloanto, I'm just discussing a general concept.

AfA 4.x I consider a dead horse
The latest AfA release is younger than your latest release, IIRC. That plus AROS 68k leaves two branches, yes? Plus 3.X from Cloanto. So you're fine with two or three  branches? How many is too much?

No, the world is not black and white. Meaning I'm against open source does not mean I'm for Ben, that is just naive.
You're creating valueable IP for Ben that can be held hostage, just like OS4 has been held hostage for a decade. You're creating revenue for Ben. Given the choice to open source or stay with Ben, you'd stay with Ben. Hence, in the context of this discussion you're pro Ben.

Explain to me how giving 3.1.4 for free to Hyperion makes it more likely that some sort of comittee of skilled benefactors will get a say in what's going to happen? Because it worked so well for OS4?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 16, 2020, 10:45:56 PM
Thomas why on earth would a person with sane minds change existing APIs all the time just for fun and to make software developers unhappy? Even open source developers are normal people (to a certain degree ;) )

You cannot say open source is always better, the same is true for closed source. But in a small market where nobody can really make money and investing money is not reallly attractive only open source guarantees existence of a platform. If your product depends on the interest of one person and this person f.e. looses interest the product vanishes. That already happened with lots of amiga software and that can happen to the OS of course too.

It is not relevant if you are happy about the Aros 68k branch, it exists and will continue to exist with Vampire as main hardware target (and UAE).

BTW standards are set by the leader.., that can be the official version but must not. Regarding forking... we are talking about a theoretical danger here. You must find developers with both skills and willingness to invest time in it. A rare requirement. I do not expect much forks "if" AmigaOS would be open source.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on February 16, 2020, 11:15:55 PM
The latest AfA release is from 2016. The latest AmigaOS update is from 2019.
Anyway AFA is not an OS but a set of patches that requires an unnderlying OS.

Anyway, AROS can continue being a reduction cost measure for the Vampire V4 project, or for whatever emulator. AROS is not a issue.
They can, and probably will do whatever they please. They can keep changing ABIs as much as they wish to. It is their project and goals, which are quite different.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 16, 2020, 11:21:36 PM
There is no change of ABI in AROS/68k, duh.

It’s as if you don’t know the difference between ABI and API...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 16, 2020, 11:23:09 PM
+1

Aros 68k never had the problems f.e. X86 had

it was always the same ABI
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 16, 2020, 11:24:52 PM
at the moment the main activity is to make it as compatible to 3.1 as possible (f.e. changes in keymaps and datatypes at the moment)

and the API always was very compatible (obvious if you run amiga software on it)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on February 16, 2020, 11:25:34 PM
I am talking about AROS in general.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 16, 2020, 11:27:13 PM
and I never cared about the other platforms

I was always sceptical about "NG" running on different hardware and only interested in 68k
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 16, 2020, 11:53:15 PM
at the moment the main activity is to make it as compatible to 3.1 as possible (f.e. changes in keymaps and datatypes at the moment)

After 25 years of development it is still not a full implementation of 3.1.

So can we expect to see 3.2 support by the year 2045?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 16, 2020, 11:54:16 PM
very funny

and when do we see new features in AmigaOS a OS today needs in it? In 2100? ;)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 16, 2020, 11:56:12 PM
I wish I was joking, I'm actually being serious though. Extrapolating from past development, that seems about the right timeframe.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 16, 2020, 11:56:58 PM
yes...

and I am serious about 2100 too
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2020, 12:04:41 AM
BTW why do you think Aros 68k developers have the desire to imitate the features of 3.2 (like Reaction)

both platforms are in competition in future and users will decide what they want to use (depending of course on the hardware)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on February 17, 2020, 12:19:58 AM
BTW why do you think Aros 68k developers have the desire to imitate the features of 3.2 (like Reaction)

both platforms are in competition in future and users will decide what they want to use (depending of course on the hardware)

In competiton? How?

AROS is more platform agnostic, and it is one of its major advantages as an OS. I don't see it as competition.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 17, 2020, 12:39:16 AM
BTW why do you think Aros 68k developers have the desire to imitate the features of 3.2 (like Reaction)

So that modern AmigaOS software will run on it, presumably. Otherwise AROS will continue to become less and less useful.

On one hand you say AmigaOS is not modern enough, but then you expect developers to limit themselves to just OS3.1 features, just because AROS is deficient? If these modern features were added in the future, AROS still wouldn't support them because it is just a (not very good) OS3.1 clone.

And how exactly would you propose supporting memory protection on machines that lack an MMU?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 17, 2020, 12:41:53 AM
The latest AfA release is from 2016. The latest AmigaOS update is from 2019.
I was talking about the follow up project, I think it's called "AfA One". That one had a release in October.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on February 17, 2020, 02:10:32 AM
The latest AfA release is from 2016. The latest AmigaOS update is from 2019.
I was talking about the follow up project, I think it's called "AfA One". That one had a release in October.

But that is not an an OS, it is a prepackaged set of programs and customizations meant for AROS. It is what we call a "distro", that relies in the underlyinng OS, much like ClassicWB, Amiga In a Box, BestWB, etc.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 17, 2020, 02:30:52 AM
@ cgutjahr

I don't want this to get too heated. I agree with a lot of the concerns you raised previously.

MUI vs ReAction, NSD vs whatever the other thing was, P96 vs CGX, PowerUp vs WarpOS, and, of course, the big one, OS3 vs OS4 vs MorphOS vs AROS.
  • All of those were created despite AmigaOS being closed source
  • All of those were created while there was no active development of the official OS
  • All of those were resolved the second the official rights holder declared one of them to be the official solution
But I would argue that all of those were created *because* we'd lost the governance that Commodore provided in its stewardship of the OS. And even though one or the other has been declared the "official" solution, the situation is far from resolved--MUI is still used despite ReAction being the "official" choice for OS3/OS4. If we still had strong governance a solution would have been found before a split happened, and in a way that would have not left proponents of an alternative feeling personally offended.
Quote
Quote
Why is critical mass important? Look at what happened with AWeb. We had an open-source web browser!
We also had an open source DPaint! Look at what happened! What do mean, "it was totally outdated by the time its source was released"?
At the very least it was an Intuition GUI that could have had a new rendering engine dropped in. Easier than starting from scratch, but still nothing came of it.

Quote
Quote
As much as we want it to be true, open source isn’t a panacea for every situation.
Nobody's claiming that. But the situation is really, really fucked up.
Oh, absolutely agreed! :)
Quote
And Thomas and you are arguing "let's continue to try what we tried countless times in the last 25 years, one of these days it has to work, right?".
I'm not hostile to the idea of open source, just concerned that it could make our problems worse in the long run. Hence my comment about the dead branches. See below.

Quote
Quote
Instead of one slow-moving branch we could have 4 dead branches.
Why? Because Thomas and his guys rage-quit when the sources are released?
No, because the 4 branches will each start out with passionate defenders who ultimately aren't numerous enough to sustain them in the long term. Meanwhile everyone else will be confused as to which one to back and in all likelihood will end up backing none of them and just lose interest and walk away. That doesn't benefit anyone.

Quote
Quote
Thomas is also right that a developer driven model is rarely one for long-term success.
"Long term success"? We're discussing AmigaOS 3.x - where do you want it to go in 2020?
That's a very valid question and it's one that I think a strong governance system could help resolve. Just what do we want for OS3? OS4?

My ultimate interest is preventing this from happening again:
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 05:54:50 AM
Thomas why on earth would a person with sane minds change existing APIs all the time just for fun and to make software developers unhappy?
Because that is already happening. Look at vampire, and their unwillingness to announce hardware by Autoconf ("we have our own method to identify RTG") or their unwillingness to use the F-boot rom mechanism ("We need a 1MB ROM"). Because we already have that problem with certain reaction classes, where under the curtain, the interfaces changed slightly enough to break the color wheel gadget at some place. At the icon.library, where certain hacks are established for more colorful icons the Os did not or currently does not have. Or, look at 3.1.4, where we had to invent something new just to make large drives boot properly. There is the necessity to advance the API at some point because it lacks, but without coordination, you get incompatible extensions, such as we got with NSD or TD64.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 17, 2020, 05:59:29 AM
We *must* cut complexity down, and we cannot in an open source world. See Linux.

Your argument seems to be "Linux is open source, and Linux is complex, therefore all open source software is complex."  This does not bear up under even casual examination.  OpenBSD, for example, is also open source, and yet they do a pretty good job of containing complexity.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 06:03:06 AM
That plus AROS 68k leaves two branches, yes? Plus 3.X from Cloanto. So you're fine with two or three  branches? How many is too much?
3.x I already told you is nonsense. AROS is a different  "market", why should I bother. I just do not get their point.

No, the world is not black and white. Meaning I'm against open source does not mean I'm for Ben, that is just naive.
You're creating valueable IP for Ben that can be held hostage, just like OS4 has been held hostage for a decade. You're creating revenue for Ben. Given the choice to open source or stay with Ben, you'd stay with Ben. Hence, in the context of this discussion you're pro Ben.
Yes, for you, things are simple. I'm trying to advance things, and that is only possible with Ben at the moment, so I must be "for him". This is just stupidity. You are one of those persons that would rather block every development rather than trying to help. Thanks, but I knew that.

It is not that simple, really.

Explain to me how giving 3.1.4 for free to Hyperion makes it more likely that some sort of comittee of skilled benefactors will get a say in what's going to happen? Because it worked so well for OS4?
Because currently we have a troll-free development environment, for one thing, and no branches for another, and still contact to some outside experts to talk to. Certainly not perfect, but that is a lot better than what would happen in an open source environment. It would now need end-user support, which we wouldn't get in the open source world either, to make it even better, but well - we don't get that from either side.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2020, 11:33:20 AM
3.1.4 introduces memory protection?  ???

it is not possible, at least not without breaking most of the software

But there are still other features like RTG, Network, USB that are needed on a useable system
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2020, 11:38:46 AM
and who defines how the API is advanced?

In a open source environment f.e. developers of patches or libraries can take part and contribute (if they want)

Closed source only the maintainer (and owner) decides

I prefer the first one

And the danger of forking is (as I wrote) in reality not that big because you need very skilled devs to do that who are willing to invest time in that

BTW to general make it clear to all... Aros on 68k needs no special compiled software but runs normal amiga software. Of course both 3.1.4 and Aros are now in competition on 68k (at least on vampire)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 11:43:12 AM
and who defines how the API is advanced?
I suggest you read what I propose, then come back.

I prefer the first one
I don't. There is a difference between "closed source" and "transparent development". Please read my suggestion, I beg you.

And the danger of forking is (as I wrote) in reality not that big because you need very skilled devs to do that who are willing to invest time in that
Then why do prefer "Open source", if in the end, the net result is defined by the same people anyhow?? The development model has little to do with software licensing.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 17, 2020, 11:50:25 AM
The development model has little to do with software licensing.
And what is the licensing of OS 3.1.4?
What will be the licensing of OS 3.2?
Same list of BS requirements and nonsensical restrictions?
It is the LICENSE that prevents me from BUYING any more OS from Hyperion.

That is disconnected from development model, open source, closed source, whatever.

("transparent development" - that is what was known as "open development" back in the days, but haha, the lolz)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on February 17, 2020, 12:06:55 PM
BTW to general make it clear to all... Aros on 68k needs no special compiled software but runs normal amiga software. Of course both 3.1.4 and Aros are now in competition on 68k (at least on vampire)

You got it all wrong, AROS is competing with CoffinOS(which is based on 3.9).
Which seeems to be the promoted choice by the Vampire Team. In fact, one of its creators/distributors is a member of the Vampire Team himself.

http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2019-11-00011-EN.html
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2020, 12:09:05 PM
not everyone is using that other distribution

Amigans are purists and individuals

And yes at the moment Aros is mainly targeting vampire (besides UAE)

that is where the growth currently is
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2020, 12:13:00 PM
what is transparent about 3.1.4?

2 developers in background decide

And what will happen with 3.1.4 if f.e, Cloanto wins?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 12:13:59 PM
It is the LICENSE that prevents me from BUYING any more OS from Hyperion.
Nope.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 12:15:55 PM
what is transparent about 3.1.4?
Olaf, with all necessary respect, would you please be so kind and be serious about what I'm proposing? I am *not* talking about 3.1.4 here.

2 developers in background decide
Actually, no, this is not how it worked. But at least, the model was not the decision model used in forums: "He who screams loudest wins".

And what will happen with 3.1.4 if f.e, Cloanto wins?
I would suggest to ask Cloanto.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2020, 12:24:20 PM
now I am a little confused... you mentioned 3.1.4 several times as the new leading 3.X version unifying the different 68k  versions (3.1/3.5/3.9/Patches and so on) as far as possible to set the new standard

The others (3.1/3.5/3.9) are not in development and only patched

Other than that you are "splitting" the market too because not everyone is interested to buy and use 3.1.4

Or do I understand something wrong?

If the discussion is not about 3.1.4, about what it is about? It is the only one that is changed currently on the 3.X branch
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 17, 2020, 12:58:04 PM
It is the LICENSE that prevents me from BUYING any more OS from Hyperion.
Nope.
It is - the current license that OS 3.1.4 is distributed under, is unacceptable for me.

Permitted Uses and Restrictions
* This License does not allow the AmigaOS to exist on more than one computer at a time.
- this is a problem for me, as I keep live backups on multiple machines

* This license allows you to install or operate the AmigaOS only on a computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system, which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism or for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available.

- this is unclear
is this is an OR list?
 1) computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system
 2) computer system which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism
 3) computer system for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available

or is 1st point mandatory?
 1) computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system
  -  which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism
  -  or for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available

I have several computer systems that did _not_ have a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time I acquired them, this including quite a few real Commodore Amiga systems. If first option is the "correct" interpretation, then _any_ computer system capable of running _any_ sort of emulator is legit - essentially any computer system at all, rendering the entire specification pointless. Provided that Hyperion acknowledges the legality of AmigaOS for emulators, FPGA systems etc.

Hyperion has till now refused to specify what they mean.

* You may make one copy of the AmigaOS in machine-readable form for backup purposes only.
- that is not how my backup systems work, redundancy is king. Also, I have "computer systems" where kickstart and initial ramdisk are downloaded from a TFTP-server on the LAN for installation - this does not work in accordance with the license.

* You are required to select the appropriate "Locale" setting based on the location where you will be operating the AmigaOS.
- this one I find just ridiculous - for many there simply are no "appropriate" locales that match location of the user, and for me the "appropriate" locales are of so low quality that I don't want to use them. Why is this condition there anyways?

* Except as expressly permitted in this License or by law, you may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, rent, lease, loan, sublicense, distribute or create derivative works based upon the AmigaOS in whole or part or transmit the AmigaOS over a network or from one computer to another.
- problematic for many reasons - reverse engineering, disassembling and modification is what day-to-day Amiga usage is about, and transmitting AmigaOS in parts over network from one computer to another is also something that falls into day-to-day use for me.

* Your rights under this License will terminate automatically without notice from Hyperion if you fail to comply with any term(s) of this License.
- so my rights under the License were terminated once I read the license and saw the above mentioned problem (not that the license specifies any rights in the first place)

For _MY_ copy of OS 3.1.4, this license was not presented to me before I bought it, and only existed as a text file in the archive, which I did not see any reason to read before I installed the OS on the Minimig - but since then (after I made an official complaint through the European Commission), the license _is_ presented as it should - before PoS, and it says "ONLY START THE INSTALLATION IF YOU AGREE WITH THE TERMS" - I clearly do not agree with the terms, and hence I cannot start the installation, and it would be pointless of me to buy more copies.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 01:16:09 PM
[quote author=Thomas Richter link=topic=74543.msg848012#msg848012 date=15819416
* This License does not allow the AmigaOS to exist on more than one computer at a time.
- this is a problem for me, as I keep live backups on multiple machines
If you have two systems, buy two licences. As simple as that. Same as for many other commercial operating systems and no need to complain about.

* This license allows you to install or operate the AmigaOS only on a computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system, which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism or for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available.

- this is unclear
is this is an OR list?
This is plain English. The system you install 3.1.4 on must have had AmigaOs installed on it before. I do not see any source for misunderstanding here.

1) computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system
 2) computer system which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism
 3) computer system for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available
All these are alternatives. It is also plain English.

I have several computer systems that did _not_ have a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time I acquired them, this including quite a few real Commodore Amiga systems.
Do points 2) or 3) apply?


If first option is the "correct" interpretation, then _any_ computer system capable of running _any_ sort of emulator is legit - essentially any computer system at all, rendering the entire specification pointless.
If there was a legit version of AmigaOs available, yes. Do any of the points say anything about "emulation"?

Hyperion has till now refused to specify what they mean.
I don't see a problem, except you.


* You may make one copy of the AmigaOS in machine-readable form for backup purposes only.
- that is not how my backup systems work, redundancy is king. Also, I have "computer systems" where kickstart and initial ramdisk are downloaded from a TFTP-server on the LAN for installation - this does not work in accordance with the license.
Then don't back up the Os, but your data. This problem is easily solvable. Also, read in the license what "AmigaOs" actually means. Probably "the disks you received", there is a definition certainly.

* You are required to select the appropriate "Locale" setting based on the location where you will be operating the AmigaOS.
- this one I find just ridiculous - for many there simply are no "appropriate" locales that match location of the user, and for me the "appropriate" locales are of so low quality that I don't want to use them. Why is this condition there anyways?
I don't know. You do speak English. That makes English appropriate. While I do not know the reason, it may be to waive responsibility in case the user selects a language (s)he doesn't speak, and then does something stupid.

* Except as expressly permitted in this License or by law, you may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, rent, lease, loan, sublicense, distribute or create derivative works based upon the AmigaOS in whole or part or transmit the AmigaOS over a network or from one computer to another.
Same condition as in all other Os, and absolutely reasonable.

- problematic for many reasons - reverse engineering, disassembling and modification is what day-to-day Amiga usage is about,
Nope, and exactly that is the problem caused by many of the "high quality software" you find out there. That's why we have specifications.


and transmitting AmigaOS in parts over network from one computer to another is also something that falls into day-to-day use for me.
Nope, neither allowed by many contemporary licenses. The Os is bound to the installation target, which is reasonable. Transmit your data, not the Os.

* Your rights under this License will terminate automatically without notice from Hyperion if you fail to comply with any term(s) of this License.
If you transmit the Os, or copy the Os, yes, the license terminates, because both is not allowed. Sounds quite reasonable to me for a commercial product.

- so my rights under the License were terminated once I read the license and saw the above mentioned problem (not that the license specifies any rights in the first place)
Nope. "Seing the problems" is not a reason for termination. Not complying to it is.

In other words, the usual Kolla foo-bla. Thank you.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 01:24:01 PM
now I am a little confused... you mentioned 3.1.4 several times as the new leading 3.X version unifying the different 68k  versions (3.1/3.5/3.9/Patches and so on) as far as possible to set the new standard
Yes.

The others (3.1/3.5/3.9) are not in development and only patched
Yes.



Other than that you are "splitting" the market too because not everyone is interested to buy and use 3.1.4
In the same sense 3.1 "split the market" because 3.0 was already out in some installations. Well, it really did not because the API was backwards compatible all the way, and there was a 3.1 only, and not a 3.1 by vendor A and a 3.1 from vendor B. There was an RTG system from vendor A, and an RTG system from vendor B, due to failure in communication, and there was NSD and TD64 due to failure in coordination, that were flaws. TD64 would have been fine - as backwards compatible extension. Or NSD would have been fine (well, sort of) as backwards compatible extenion, but not both.

Thus, if the Os is advanced, *coordinate". You cannot enforce coordination in an "open source development model", but as history shows, it is very much needed.

We tried to stay compatible to 3.9 to the most amount possible, with some flaws which were beyond our ability to fix (reaction, to name one, CyberGraphics to name another for the V45 intuition - actually, V45 intuition did not end up in ROM for exactly that reason - to stay compatible). We tried to use interfaces from Os 4.x whenever something had to be extended.

There was only one rough decision, and this was on how to signal this NSD/TD64 mess.

If the discussion is not about 3.1.4, about what it is about?
It is about the development model of whatever follows. Not 3.1.4 in particular.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2020, 01:40:22 PM
I understand why you prefer a model where the control is one hand on the other side lots of software vanished because the owners left the market. That could even happen to 3.1.4 now (depending on both Hyperion and Cloanto). A platform not controlled by one entity (or even one person) can guarantee survival. And it is much easier for people to contribute not needed to sign NDAs.

But there we will always have different views  ;)

Time will tell (and users will decide)

BTW the standard will always be set by the leader. If it would be (as a example) Aros on Vampire then the standards for new software on Vampire is Aros. On a unexpanded Amiga certainly AmigaOS will stay the standard. Aros is dedicated to 3.1 so as long you not introduce incompatiblities to 3.1 there should be no problem.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 17, 2020, 02:18:45 PM
But I would argue that all of those were created *because* we'd lost the governance that Commodore provided in its stewardship of the OS.
I don't think 'governance' is the right term here. This is/was a commercial market, and both hardware and software developers would fill whatever niche they either saw as commercially viable or bothered them in their personal use of the Amiga. You can't just forbid that from happening.

Quote
And even though one or the other has been declared the "official" solution, the situation is far from resolved--MUI is still used despite ReAction being the "official" choice for OS3/OS4. If we still had strong governance a solution would have been found before a split happened, and in a way that would have not left proponents of an alternative feeling personally offended.
The GUI is actually a good example. 1.x had no proper GUI toolkit, which is why everybody created his own. Then Gadtools came along, but nobody used it because a very large chunk of users was still on 1.x. Once the majority of users were able to run Gadtools applications, the system was already outdated again, which is why we got all those Gadtools extensions or completely new GUI toolkits.

Neither Commodore's presence, nor the closed source nature of AmigaOS nor CBM's announcement you should use Gadtools from now on did do anything about this situation. What finally solved it was continued OS development. MUI still being alive is a special case, it simply survived because the competition adapted it as their solution.

No, because the 4 branches will each start out with passionate defenders who ultimately aren't numerous enough to sustain them in the long term. Meanwhile everyone else will be confused as to which one to back and in all likelihood will end up backing none of them and just lose interest and walk away. That doesn't benefit anyone.
Nah. Let's say a hypothetical open source  3.2 comes out, developed by a team lead by two respected and well-known developers, one of which has been at this for close to three decades, and it's delivered in a big shiny Box labeled "AMIGAOS 3.2". There will be absolutely no confusion as to which project one should support. If history tells us anything, there will be threads where people announce they're going to buy it, despite not having a need right now - just "to support the Amiga".

MorphOS had a head start, ran on much, much better and cheaper hardware that was continously available - and in contrast to OS4, it has seen tons of development in the last decade. But as soon as Bill Buck stopped throwing suitcases of money (or at least promises of such suitcases) at the whole thing, it got pretty much irrelevant over night. I could say similar things about AROS, but OlafS is here, and that always gets him worked up - so I won't ;)

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My ultimate interest is preventing this from happening again:
I get that. But I don't think it's much of a problem in 2020 - partly due to AmigaOS now being a retro hobby toy, partly due to the low number of skilled developers. If I have two or three of those on my team, I control 80% of the qualified work force ;)

And let's not forget that Hyperion/Ben is the party that allegedly torpedoed the very early attempt to join forces and create one single PPC based AmigaOS from components controlled by Amiga, H&P, Hyperion and the MorphOS team (*)  and established a 3.x branch after Cloanto did - one who's legality is currently questioned in court - and is hated by a very large chunk of the developers and managed to get their proprietary PPC OS which was completely under their control split into two efforts. "Unity, peace and common standards" is not the first thing I think about when hearing "Hyperion".

Unfortunately, the choice is not "open source or some hypothetical well-meaning entity lead by Jay Miner's grandson" - it's "open source or Hyperion".

(*) not saying Hyperion was the only guilty party
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2020, 02:23:52 PM
thanks for being so considerate  ;)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 02:54:13 PM
And let's not forget that Hyperion/Ben is the party that allegedly torpedoed the very early attempt to join forces and create one single PPC based AmigaOS from components controlled by Amiga, H&P, Hyperion and the MorphOS team (*)  and established a 3.x branch after Cloanto did - one who's legality is currently questioned in court - and is hated by a very large chunk of the developers and managed to get their proprietary PPC OS which was completely under their control split into two efforts. "Unity, peace and common standards" is not the first thing I think about when hearing "Hyperion".
Err, what? You were not on board, so you can hardly know *when* 3.1.4 was established, but it was quite a bit earlier than you may believe. It was actually planned a lot smaller, though, when I first got the idea from Olaf.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 17, 2020, 03:19:46 PM
Same as for many other commercial operating systems and no need to complain about.

Care to name one?

Quote
* This license allows you to install or operate the AmigaOS only on a computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system, which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism or for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available.

- this is unclear
is this is an OR list?
This is plain English. The system you install 3.1.4 on must have had AmigaOs installed on it before. I do not see any source for misunderstanding here.

I tried to communicate two interpretations, but you seem just as confused as anyone - you are saying OS 3.1.4 is only legit on a system that previously have had a legit AmigaOS installation. But is that a prime condition that must be met, or is it one of three possible conditions, of which only one need to be met?

And then it comes down to what Hyperion considers a legal AmigaOS installation.

My FPGA systems did not come with any AmigaOS installed, nor were they specially prepared for AmigaOS when I acquired them (exception being the MiST), but Cloanto are selling AmigaOS and licenses to anyone willing to buy, and FPGA systems like the MiST have been distributed with OS 3.1 kickstart and license from Cloanto, so if Hyperion considers whatever Cloanto are selling as legit legal AmigaOS installations, then _any_ computer system is a legit target for OS 3.1.4.

Is this a correct understanding?

Is it "legal", according to the license, to install OS 3.1.4 on "home made" systems like the ReAmiga 1200, or A500++?

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1) computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system
 2) computer system which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism
 3) computer system for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available
All these are alternatives. It is also plain English.


Well, and alternative 3 is one that says _any_ computer is legit, as Cloanto has been selling AmigaOS, presumably legally, for use with any computer system.

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I have several computer systems that did _not_ have a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time I acquired them, this including quite a few real Commodore Amiga systems.
Do points 2) or 3) apply?

Yes, but not 1) which brings us back to whether 1) is a prime condition that must be met, or just one of three, of which one must be met.

So this is still as clear as mud.

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If first option is the "correct" interpretation, then _any_ computer system capable of running _any_ sort of emulator is legit - essentially any computer system at all, rendering the entire specification pointless.
If there was a legit version of AmigaOs available, yes. Do any of the points say anything about "emulation"?

So you're saying 1) is a prime condition, and 2) or 3) are secondary conditions. Or do you?

Emulation is irrelevant, the license says "computer systems", it does not specify whether such a "computer system" is implemented.

As "many other commercial operating systems" do.

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Hyperion has till now refused to specify what they mean.
I don't see a problem, except you.

Personal attack again. Classy.

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* You may make one copy of the AmigaOS in machine-readable form for backup purposes only.
- that is not how my backup systems work, redundancy is king. Also, I have "computer systems" where kickstart and initial ramdisk are downloaded from a TFTP-server on the LAN for installation - this does not work in accordance with the license.
Then don't back up the Os, but your data.

So your suggestion is that people stop making backups of their OS installations, just because they might be tempted to keep multiple backups... because license violation. Again.... I applaud thee... slowly... *clap* *clap*

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This problem is easily solvable. Also, read in the license what "AmigaOs" actually means. Probably "the disks you received", there is a definition certainly.

Probably? So you don't really know what the license mean with "AmigaOs"(sic) and you are the lead developer, and come here all the time to defend "the situation"?

The definition is formulated like this:
Quote
The software, documentation and any fonts accompanying this License whether on a physical medium such as CD or DVD, in read only memory (ROM) or provided to you by download using an electronic communication network (the "AmigaOS") are licensed to you by Hyperion Entertainment CVBA ("Hyperion")

So, does this plainly say that there is only one AmigaOS, and that is whatever that is distributed by Hyperion, and Hyperion only? Essentially rendering OS3.5, 3.9 and anything from Cloanto _not_ AmigaOS?

What about all those Amiga models for which AmigaOS from Hyperion never existed?

Clear as mud.

Quote
* You are required to select the appropriate "Locale" setting based on the location where you will be operating the AmigaOS.
- this one I find just ridiculous - for many there simply are no "appropriate" locales that match location of the user, and for me the "appropriate" locales are of so low quality that I don't want to use them. Why is this condition there anyways?
I don't know. You do speak English. That makes English appropriate.

I also speak other languages, but that is not relevant according to the license - what matters is my *LOCATION* - to be compliant, I must use Norwegian locales when in Norway, and switch to Swedish locales when I cross the border to visit my mum, for example.

Quote
While I do not know the reason, it may be to waive responsibility in case the user selects a language (s)he doesn't speak, and then does something stupid.

All kinds responsibilities are waived fully at the bottom of the license - have you not read it?

Quote
* Except as expressly permitted in this License or by law, you may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, rent, lease, loan, sublicense, distribute or create derivative works based upon the AmigaOS in whole or part or transmit the AmigaOS over a network or from one computer to another.
Same condition as in all other Os, and absolutely reasonable.

In 1992 perhaps, but today?

How about everyone's favourite - Windows10?
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm

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- problematic for many reasons - reverse engineering, disassembling and modification is what day-to-day Amiga usage is about,
Nope, and exactly that is the problem caused by many of the "high quality software" you find out there. That's why we have specifications.
And more often than not, there are no specifications that deal with the problems that users need to solve.

For example, with locale catalogs being incompatible between OS 3.9, a user may wish to keep OS 3.1.4 locates separate from those of OS 3.9, and binary edit the OS 3.1.4 ones to use a different directory than "sys".
 
Many edit all prefs programs to use a different font than topaz/8 - what scum they are, breaking the license!

Quote
and transmitting AmigaOS in parts over network from one computer to another is also something that falls into day-to-day use for me.
Nope, neither allowed by many contemporary licenses.

Care to name an example?

Quote
The Os is bound to the installation target, which is reasonable. Transmit your data, not the Os.

I see no mention of any "target" in any of the licenses, Microsoft speak of "devices" which they in the license define (as both physical and virtual), and Hyperion licenses only mention "computer systems" without specifying what they mean by that.

Quote
* Your rights under this License will terminate automatically without notice from Hyperion if you fail to comply with any term(s) of this License.
If you transmit the Os, or copy the Os, yes, the license terminates, because both is not allowed. Sounds quite reasonable to me for a commercial product.

Is it? I downloaded OS 3.1.4 to my laptop, where I unzipped the archive, but since it doesn't have any SD card reader (and I could not find the USB one at the time), I then transferred the ADFs and kickstart to my workstation and dumped them on an SD card there. The SD card was then inserted into the Minimig and installed to a hard drive image, and not just one image, but several images - one plain OS 3.1.4, one plain OS 3.1.4 with my stuff, and one OS 3.1.4 with BestWB. And later came OS 3.1.4.1 which I again installed on a dedicated disk image that was a copy of the OS 3.1.4 image, so that I had both old 3.1.4 and 3.1.4.1.

At one point I had filesystem error on the image with "my installation", and with the Minimig having RAM restrictions, it was not possible to fix on the Minimig itself, so I copied that OS image over the network to my laptop, fired up FS-UAE with a Minimig-like config, only a lot more RAM, and let it fix the filesystem, before copying that disk image back to the Minimig. This time I also made sure to dump a backup of this OS installation to my dedicated amiga backup directory, which is a git private online repo. In the meantime, my laptop has also been taken backup of, with one copy at my storage provider and one copy in iCloud.

How many times have broken the license now? Is all this really unreasonable?

Quote
- so my rights under the License were terminated once I read the license and saw the above mentioned problem (not that the license specifies any rights in the first place)
Nope. "Seing the problems" is not a reason for termination. Not complying to it is.

In other words, the usual Kolla foo-bla. Thank you.

Again the personal attacks - what are the odd that you are not compliant to the yourself? Maybe you have not read it? Maybe you are such a cool person that such mundane issues are below your radar?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 17, 2020, 03:20:36 PM
Err, what? You were not on board, so you can hardly know *when* 3.1.4 was established, but it was quite a bit earlier than you may believe.
Cloanto's first (digital) 3.X releases are from 2004. I'm not sure when the first physical releases happened, probably a decade later.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 17, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
Same as for many other commercial operating systems and no need to complain about.

Care to name one?
Windows(tm). Valid for one installation. With an EULA much longer than this.

* This license allows you to install or operate the AmigaOS only on a computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system, which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism or for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available.
Well, the sentence has an *or* in it, right?


My FPGA systems did not come with any AmigaOS installed, nor were they specially prepared for AmigaOS when I acquired them (exception being the MiST), but Cloanto are selling AmigaOS and licenses to anyone willing to buy, and FPGA systems like the MiST have been distributed with OS 3.1 kickstart and license from Cloanto, so if Hyperion considers whatever Cloanto are selling as legit legal AmigaOS installations, then _any_ computer system is a legit target for OS 3.1.4.
So, be happy.

Personal attack again. Classy.
No, your post is a true "Kolla". Find reasons to complain about something on the premise that you do not like the product, or in this case, its vendor. Find reasons to distract a discussion on completely irrelevant topics that are quite obvious for everyone else.

So your suggestion is that people stop making backups of their OS installations,
Make *one* copy, store it.

Probably? So you don't really know what the license mean with "AmigaOs"(sic) and you are the lead developer, and come here all the time to defend "the situation"?
Exactly. Developer. Not marketing, not product management, not legal department. What do you actually expect from me? Write licenses? Prepare the binder? Copy the disks? Deliver it do your home?

So, does this plainly say that there is only one AmigaOS, and that is whatever that is distributed by Hyperion, and Hyperion only?
It says, it is licensed from Hyperion. From whom else?

Essentially rendering OS3.5, 3.9 and anything from Cloanto _not_ AmigaOS?
Where does it say so? Again, you want to find something to complain about, then find a formulation which, with a lot of bad feelings, could be possibly misunderstood, then make a rumble about it. Trolling, as trolling goes.

All kinds responsibilities are waived fully at the bottom of the license - have you not read it?
No, I have not, I am a *developer*. It is not my job to create licenses, read them, or check them.

In 1992 perhaps, but today?
Yes, perfectly. I suppose, you check for Windows, or MacOs?

And more often than not, there are no specifications that deal with the problems that users need to solve.
As in? There are the RKRMs, the Autodocs, and *gasp* even people you can ask. RKRMs are even online. For example here. Surprise!

For example, with locale catalogs being incompatible between OS 3.9, a user may wish to keep OS 3.1.4 locates separate from those of OS 3.9, and binary edit the OS 3.1.4 ones to use a different directory than "sys".
Os 3.9 selected to have catalog identifiers messed up. 3.1.4 stayed with the catalog IDs from 3.9. So, if you use the 3.9 preferences, you use the 3.9 catalogs. If you don't - you don't. The 3.9 perferences are not part of 3.1.4, nor do we have its sources, nor any rights on it, so they are not part of 3.1.4. Install one, or the other, but the hex editor is not a recommended solution.

Many edit all prefs programs to use a different font than topaz/8 - what scum they are, breaking the license!
Right, and this is correct this way. This is not for you to edit. It will mess with the design, and this is the clearest way to tell people to keep their hands off, and waive any responsibility for such activity. I had a program in the beta testing to replace the topaz font by some other font. Some people did not understand that the font size must match, and reported bugs. We did not deliver the program. 3.2 will have gadtools with scaling capability, so you'll get the freedom. Did not fit into the 3.1.4 schedule. I'm so sorry (not).

Care to name an example?
Windows, MacOs... you name it. You received *one* license, for *one* system. It is not supposed to be copied.

I see no mention of any "target" in any of the licenses, Microsoft speak of "devices" which they in the license define (as both physical and virtual), and Hyperion licenses only mention "computer systems" without specifying what they mean by that.
Oh, and "device" is more clear than "computer system"? Is your washing machine a device?

Is all this really unreasonable?
Your whole post? Yes, very. Laughable.

Maybe you have not read it?
Nope, what for? Not my job.

Maybe you are such a cool person that such mundane issues are below your radar?
Once again, I do not mind about the license of the product, this is not my problem. Why do you believe that this is one of my issues? I'm not even employed by Hyperion (luckely). You seem to prefer to pick me as a contact person for Hyperion, which apparently you don't like, and then instead attack me in person.

Now, does anyone wonder *why* I don't like AmigaOs open source? Because of people like you, Kolla, exactly that. In a commercial enterprise, one has "customer support" to avoid that developers have to care about the type of people you find in this forum, and to let developers do their job, and let other people care about it (and probably ignore them...). This is pretty much what would be necessary in any sane product development. If I would be Hyperion - yes, ignoring your questions is probably the best strategy to use.

Once again, *I AM NOT YOUR CUSTOMER SUPPORT POINT* and *NOT YOUR LEGAL DEPARTMENT* and *NOT YOUR COMPLAINTS DEPARTMENT*.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 17, 2020, 07:31:40 PM
But I would argue that all of those were created *because* we'd lost the governance that Commodore provided in its stewardship of the OS.
I don't think 'governance' is the right term here. This is/was a commercial market, and both hardware and software developers would fill whatever niche they either saw as commercially viable or bothered them in their personal use of the Amiga. You can't just forbid that from happening.

Quote
And even though one or the other has been declared the "official" solution, the situation is far from resolved--MUI is still used despite ReAction being the "official" choice for OS3/OS4. If we still had strong governance a solution would have been found before a split happened, and in a way that would have not left proponents of an alternative feeling personally offended.
The GUI is actually a good example. 1.x had no proper GUI toolkit, which is why everybody created his own. Then Gadtools came along, but nobody used it because a very large chunk of users was still on 1.x. Once the majority of users were able to run Gadtools applications, the system was already outdated again, which is why we got all those Gadtools extensions or completely new GUI toolkits.

Neither Commodore's presence, nor the closed source nature of AmigaOS nor CBM's announcement you should use Gadtools from now on did do anything about this situation. What finally solved it was continued OS development. MUI still being alive is a special case, it simply survived because the competition adapted it as their solution.

Fair point, developers will fill gaps the vendor has left open. But originally all those toolkits were to support products at the application level. Now we have a problem of competing components at the OS level. If Commodore (and its governance/guidance) hadn't folded we probably would have seen official adoption of an MUI-like toolkit before all the alternatives took off--just like Commodore adopted ARexx and commodities.library. Even though there is an "official" toolkit now, its adoption came after the damage of the split was done.

The issues we have now are far beyond GUI toolkits. Now it seems like we've got multiple iterations of icon.library, workbench.library, exec.library, scsi.device, ixemul.library, etc.--variants that all have the same name. It's getting too difficult to keep track of them all and they're not all interoperable. If we don't get everyone lined up on mutually agreeable standards then a compatibility nightmare awaits us down the line.

Quote
No, because the 4 branches will each start out with passionate defenders who ultimately aren't numerous enough to sustain them in the long term. Meanwhile everyone else will be confused as to which one to back and in all likelihood will end up backing none of them and just lose interest and walk away. That doesn't benefit anyone.
Nah. Let's say a hypothetical open source  3.2 comes out, developed by a team lead by two respected and well-known developers, one of which has been at this for close to three decades, and it's delivered in a big shiny Box labeled "AMIGAOS 3.2". There will be absolutely no confusion as to which project one should support. If history tells us anything, there will be threads where people announce they're going to buy it, despite not having a need right now - just "to support the Amiga".
Well, that's what we'd hope would happen and what logically *should* happen under a (strong governance!) open-source model, but we're not exactly a logical bunch in this community. :)
So, who knows if it would actually be that clear?

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MorphOS had a head start, ran on much, much better and cheaper hardware that was continously available - and in contrast to OS4, it has seen tons of development in the last decade. But as soon as Bill Buck stopped throwing suitcases of money (or at least promises of such suitcases) at the whole thing, it got pretty much irrelevant over night. I could say similar things about AROS, but OlafS is here, and that always gets him worked up - so I won't ;)
But that's kind of my point, right? There's been a split and there's no going back from it.

Quote
Quote
My ultimate interest is preventing this from happening again:
I get that. But I don't think it's much of a problem in 2020 - partly due to AmigaOS now being a retro hobby toy, partly due to the low number of skilled developers. If I have two or three of those on my team, I control 80% of the qualified work force ;)

And let's not forget that Hyperion/Ben is the party that allegedly torpedoed the very early attempt to join forces and create one single PPC based AmigaOS from components controlled by Amiga, H&P, Hyperion and the MorphOS team (*)  and established a 3.x branch after Cloanto did - one who's legality is currently questioned in court - and is hated by a very large chunk of the developers and managed to get their proprietary PPC OS which was completely under their control split into two efforts. "Unity, peace and common standards" is not the first thing I think about when hearing "Hyperion".

Unfortunately, the choice is not "open source or some hypothetical well-meaning entity lead by Jay Miner's grandson" - it's "open source or Hyperion".

(*) not saying Hyperion was the only guilty party
Sigh. Yeah, that's all true. But isn't even open source is a fantasy? Hyperion's not going to open-source it, and neither will Cloanto if they prevail, right? The best we can hope for right now is that they swallow their egos and try to get back to some best practices for product development.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 17, 2020, 08:09:27 PM
Fair point, developers will fill gaps the vendor has left open. But originally all those toolkits were to support products at the application level. Now we have a problem of competing components at the OS level [...] now are far beyond GUI toolkits. Now it seems like we've got multiple iterations of icon.library, workbench.library, exec.library, scsi.device, ixemul.library, etc.--
You can either argue that open source will create a mess, or that we already have a mess - not both ;)

ixemul.library is evil, because many ports require it and it was always a bitch to pick the right version and set it up correctly. It has nothing to do with the OS though.

The others are not really an issue - if you're using one of those patched execs (which  have existed for decades, I think 'Executive' showed up in the mid-nineties?), you're on your own if something goes wrong. Most people never touch them anyway.

variants that all have the same name. It's getting too difficult to keep track of them all and they're not all interoperable.
That's the point of ongoing development: You don't need to keep track of anything, you just purchase/install the next OS update if you feel like it. This whole "hunting down libraries with a version number bigger than what I have installed" thing (aka "BoingBag 15") has become some sort of fetish for a select few, the vast majority would be more than happy with bi-annual OS updates.

Well, that's what we'd hope would happen and what logically *should* happen under a (strong governance!) open-source model
It is what is guaranteed to happen. "Open source" just means that for each release of the OS you make, you also release the source. The rest of your development process can stay exactly the same. Thomas, Olsen and the others decide what goes into next release of the official OS, and what doesn't, then implement that, then make their release.

They have THE NAME, the reputation, the experience and the advantage of having familiarized themselves with the code and build process for years. The idea that I could just take their Workbench source, compile it and suddenly become the next big player in this market thus forcing Thomas to rage-quit is nothing but fear-mongering, sorry.

But that's kind of my point, right? There's been a split and there's no going back from it.
I disagree with that, but I don't think it actually matters. Split or no split, we were discussing the future of AmigaOS development. That a split happened while it was closed source, is more of an argument for going open source, no? In an open source world, I can take whatever useful stuff is implemented in any of the forks and bring it back into my source tree. In a proprietary world, I can't...

Sigh. Yeah, that's all true. But isn't even open source is a fantasy? Hyperion's not going to open-source it, and neither will Cloanto if they prevail, right?
Battilana has been stating publicly for years that he "wants" to open source it. I'm not going to just accept that as a given if he prevails - I've been watching this soap opera for decades, after all - but at least he's consistently making the same claim.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 17, 2020, 10:07:58 PM
Same as for many other commercial operating systems and no need to complain about.

Care to name one?
Windows(tm). Valid for one installation. With an EULA much longer than this.

tl;dr? Microsoft has many different licensing schemes so that you can buy one that fit your needs, covering both physical and virtual instances and more. The Windows license(s) uses clear language and is not ambiguous and does not come with ridiculous conditions - for example it allows the OS to exist on several computers and allow it to be transferred over networks, for example for backup.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/2/D/1/2D14FE17-66C2-4D4C-AF73-E122930B60F6/Windows-10-Volume-Licensing-Guide.pdf

Hyperion only offer one license, and it is ridiculous, ambiguous and extremely limiting.

Quote
* This license allows you to install or operate the AmigaOS only on a computer system that had a version of AmigaOS installed on it at the time you acquired such computer system, which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism or for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available.
Well, the sentence has an *or* in it, right?

Yes, ONE or - 1, 2 or 3 - which can be either 1 or 2 or 3, or it can be 1 and 2 or 3?

Quote
My FPGA systems did not come with any AmigaOS installed, nor were they specially prepared for AmigaOS when I acquired them (exception being the MiST), but Cloanto are selling AmigaOS and licenses to anyone willing to buy, and FPGA systems like the MiST have been distributed with OS 3.1 kickstart and license from Cloanto, so if Hyperion considers whatever Cloanto are selling as legit legal AmigaOS installations, then _any_ computer system is a legit target for OS 3.1.4.
So, be happy.
I am happy, but this is not about happiness, it is about finding out what the f Hyperion are trying to communicate, and what potential consequences there are.

Do Hyperion consider licenses bought from Cloanto a valid installation? Because the license suggest that Hyperion only considers their own products valid incarnations of AmigaOS, and hence OS 3.1.4 is not an update to any OS 3.1, but only a valid legal (according to the license) option for people who specifically have bought OS 3.1 from Hyperion.

That is a rather big issue, don't you think?

Quote
Personal attack again. Classy.
No, your post is a true "Kolla". Find reasons to complain about something on the premise that you do not like the product, or in this case, its vendor. Find reasons to distract a discussion on completely irrelevant topics that are quite obvious for everyone else.

Blablabla, more personal attacks saying that it is me who is trolling, rather than admitting the flaws in the license, a license you apparently have not even bothered to read.

Quote
So your suggestion is that people stop making backups of their OS installations,
Make *one* copy, store it.

And then delete the original ADFs or floppies so that there is only two copies of the Os, one installed and one copy of the installation?

Why on earth should people not be allowed to make backups of their installations?

At least Microsoft do not care how many backups you make of an OS installation, and allow you an extra backup of the installation media.

Quote
Probably? So you don't really know what the license mean with "AmigaOs"(sic) and you are the lead developer, and come here all the time to defend "the situation"?
Exactly. Developer. Not marketing, not product management, not legal department. What do you actually expect from me? Write licenses? Prepare the binder? Copy the disks? Deliver it do your home?
I don't expect anything from you, no-one asked you to come on this thread and spread nonsense - you could give Hyperion a nudge that they should perhaps contact some properly educated lawyers to review and validate their software licenses and make their services GDPR coherent etc.

Quote
So, does this plainly say that there is only one AmigaOS, and that is whatever that is distributed by Hyperion, and Hyperion only?
It says, it is licensed from Hyperion. From whom else?
It says "AmigaOS" is defined as the software licensed from Hyperion, and then goes on to say that a valid "target" for OS 3.1.4 is any computer system which there already exists a legal "AmigaOS" - ie AmigaOS licensed from Hyperion, not from Cloanto, not from Amiga Technologies, not from Amiga International, not from H&P, not from Commodore - but from Hyperion themselves.

Quote
Essentially rendering OS3.5, 3.9 and anything from Cloanto _not_ AmigaOS?
Where does it say so?
In the damn license, which I more and more understand you have not read.
Quote
1. License.  The software, documentation and any fonts accompanying this License whether on a physical medium such as CD or DVD, in read only memory (ROM) or provided to you by download using an electronic communication network (the "AmigaOS") are licensed to you by Hyperion Entertainment CVBA ("Hyperion").
See? The "AmigaOS" as mentioned in the rest of the document, is the software, documentation and any fonts accompanying this License - and this License is Hyperion only.

Quote
Again, you want to find something to complain about, then find a formulation which, with a lot of bad feelings, could be possibly misunderstood, then make a rumble about it. Trolling, as trolling goes.
Blablabla, personal attacks again. License agreements should not use language that can easily be misunderstood, and in this case it is not even easily misunderstood, it is more likely worded specifically to have multiple interpretations.

Quote
All kinds responsibilities are waived fully at the bottom of the license - have you not read it?
No, I have not, I am a *developer*. It is not my job to create licenses, read them, or check them.

I see, that figures - so then, why can you even possibly make the claim that it is not the license that prevents me from buying more copies of OS 3.1.4, and possibly the future OS 3.2?

Was it because it was *I* who wrote it, and you have a certain soft sport for me?

I am deeply flattered.

Quote
In 1992 perhaps, but today?
Yes, perfectly. I suppose, you check for Windows, or MacOs?

And more often than not, there are no specifications that deal with the problems that users need to solve.
As in? There are the RKRMs, the Autodocs, and *gasp* even people you can ask. RKRMs are even online. For example here. Surprise!
Yes, I have all those, I even host quite a few them online myself, and have for decades.

Quote
For example, with locale catalogs being incompatible between OS 3.9, a user may wish to keep OS 3.1.4 locates separate from those of OS 3.9, and binary edit the OS 3.1.4 ones to use a different directory than "sys".
Os 3.9 selected to have catalog identifiers messed up. 3.1.4 stayed with the catalog IDs from 3.9. So, if you use the 3.9 preferences, you use the 3.9 catalogs. If you don't - you don't. The 3.9 perferences are not part of 3.1.4, nor do we have its sources, nor any rights on it, so they are not part of 3.1.4.

Blablabla technobabbel - I perfectly know *why*, sheesh.

Quote
Install one, or the other, but the hex editor is not a recommended solution.
It is nevertheless a solution. If it makes you feel any better, I typically use CygnusEd for these tasks, fully paid and registered - I find Olsen a much more pleasant person to communicate with that you ;)

Quote
Many edit all prefs programs to use a different font than topaz/8 - what scum they are, breaking the license!
Right, and this is correct this way. This is not for you to edit. It will mess with the design, and this is the clearest way to tell people to keep their hands off, and waive any responsibility for such activity.
Oh your precious design, which so often is broken anyways, thanks to utterly low quality of locales, sometimes the whacky translations don't even fit into the gadgets were they are supposed to fit - something that can be fixed by binary editing both catalogs with better and more correct strings, and change the font in the program in question.

Quote
I had a program in the beta testing to replace the topaz font by some other font. Some people did not understand that the font size must match, and reported bugs. We did not deliver the program.

Dumb question - why did your program _allow_ people to chose fonts in different size then?

Also - I thought you had a policy of not delivering something that already exists as a third party tool on Aminet?
It is almost a shame you did not release it though, would be ironic if the OS came with a program specifically there to break one of the conditions in the license.

Quote
3.2 will have gadtools with scaling capability, so you'll get the freedom.

Not if the license stays at it is.

Quote
Care to name an example?
Windows, MacOs... you name it. You received *one* license, for *one* system. It is not supposed to be copied.

The companies for those operating systems have well qualified people who manage to put together coherent licenses using clear and precise language. They also offer users with multiple licenses, allowing for example multiple copies of the OS to be installed on the same machine multiple times, either under one license or individually - this is all specified in the licenses.

Can you install OS 3.1.4 under UAE on an Amiga running OS the very same OS 3.1.4?
Can you install an instance of OS 3.1.4 to run under WHDLoad to be launched from the very same OS already running on the very same hardware?

The Hyperion license does not mention how this work, it only refers to "computer system" without specifying what they mean with "computer system".

Quote
I see no mention of any "target" in any of the licenses, Microsoft speak of "devices" which they in the license define (as both physical and virtual), and Hyperion licenses only mention "computer systems" without specifying what they mean by that.
Oh, and "device" is more clear than "computer system"? Is your washing machine a device?
Not by the definition Microsoft uses, but with the Hyperion license it is not clear. My washing machine does have a computer in it, and so it is indeed a computer system too - potentially powerful enough to run an incarnation of UAE, and hence a possible target for AmigaOS.

More casual and relevant "devices" are gaming consoles, FPGA systems, other consumer computers etc.

Quote
Is all this really unreasonable?
Your whole post? Yes, very. Laughable.
No, the user scenario I described, which was straight out describing how one easily can be in violation of the license.
But by all means, go on laugh, ridicule and patronise...

Quote
Maybe you have not read it?
Nope, what for? Not my job.
Then perhaps you should also stop being obnoxious with those who have read it.

Quote
Maybe you are such a cool person that such mundane issues are below your radar?
Once again, I do not mind about the license of the product, this is not my problem. Why do you believe that this is one of my issues? I'm not even employed by Hyperion (luckely). You seem to prefer to pick me as a contact person for Hyperion, which apparently you don't like, and then instead attack me in person.
Excuse me - it was *YOU* who wrote "Nope" when I stated that the license prevents me from buying any more copies of OS 3.1.4 - it was not Hyperion, it was YOU. I only WISH it was actually someone from Hyperion who could bring answers here - you are clearly NOT the right person - not that it ever stops you though.

Quote
Now, does anyone wonder *why* I don't like AmigaOs open source? Because of people like you, Kolla, exactly that. In a commercial enterprise, one has "customer support" to avoid that developers have to care about the type of people you find in this forum, and to let developers do their job, and let other people care about it (and probably ignore them...). This is pretty much what would be necessary in any sane product development. If I would be Hyperion - yes, ignoring your questions is probably the best strategy to use.

Once again, *I AM NOT YOUR CUSTOMER SUPPORT POINT* and *NOT YOUR LEGAL DEPARTMENT* and *NOT YOUR COMPLAINTS DEPARTMENT*.

So why do you feel the need constantly jumping in to act like Hyperion's complaint department - all you have to do is... nothing!

Is your ultimate goal for replying me, to have me banned from here? Is that all you want?

Btw - the ATAPIMajik module works great on all systems so far.

And is ARexx' DATE(CENTURY) noted on the bug tracker? It still counts from 1900, not 2000.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 17, 2020, 10:58:29 PM
@ cgutjahr

I guess to summarize my thinking:
1. We already have a mess.
2. We are at risk of losing critical mass to sustain the platform as a whole.
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
4. Therefore, open source risks further fragmentation.
5. Further fragmentation exponentially increases the risk of a fork losing critical mass--including the "official" fork.
6. Therefore we might end up with an even bigger mess.

To reiterate: I'm not against open source in principle, just worried that in our current circumstances it could make matters worse. Project management is extremely complicated, and open-source project management even more so. If it's not done right the result is chaos.

If we can somehow solve #3, then choo choo, I'm all aboard the open-source train. In the meantime I just want this legal foolishness to end so that someone can deliver products for me to buy.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 17, 2020, 11:08:57 PM
@ kolla

Hey, man. You. Need. To. Relax.

It's an unenforceable software license. No one cares what you do with the copy you bought. No one is even going to find out unless you broadcast it on a public forum. Here's the short version if you want to make sure you're ethically in the clear:
1. Don't make copies that you then give away or sell.
2. For however many machines you're going to use it on, buy that many copies.

Enough, please!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: F1Lupo on February 18, 2020, 03:30:49 AM
@ cgutjahr

I guess to summarize my thinking:
1. We already have a mess.
2. We are at risk of losing critical mass to sustain the platform as a whole.
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
4. Therefore, open source risks further fragmentation.
5. Further fragmentation exponentially increases the risk of a fork losing critical mass--including the "official" fork.
6. Therefore we might end up with an even bigger mess.

To reiterate: I'm not against open source in principle, just worried that in our current circumstances it could make matters worse. Project management is extremely complicated, and open-source project management even more so. If it's not done right the result is chaos.

If we can somehow solve #3, then choo choo, I'm all aboard the open-source train. In the meantime I just want this legal foolishness to end so that someone can deliver products for me to buy.
+1  8)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Tygre on February 18, 2020, 03:49:01 AM
@Matt_H @Thomas Richter

Don't feed the Troll ::)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 18, 2020, 05:27:05 AM
It's an unenforceable software license. No one cares what you do with the copy you bought.
If it is unenforceable, it is meaningless and should not exist. Thomas who is otherwise obsessed about rules and regulations (not to mention settlements) being followed to the letter, has not even bothered to read the license that software he is writing himself is distributed under. You are pretty much saying that the license as it is now, can be ignored.

Quote
No one is even going to find out unless you broadcast it on a public forum.
There is a thread here about how people do backups, it should be obvious now that making backups of OS installations are in violation of the license. But the license is unenforceable and to be ignored.

Quote
Here's the short version if you want to make sure you're ethically in the clear:
1. Don't make copies that you then give away or sell.
2. For however many machines you're going to use it on, buy that many copies.

Then just define “machine” as any instance of a computer, hardware or virtual, capable of running “the AmigaOS” and permit multiple copies to exist on multiple systems for backup purposes, no crazy restrictions on doing backups over networks, nor requirements regarding locales etc, and you are golden - Hyperion should hire you as their license lawyer.

If OS 3.2 comes under a license this simple, I have no problem buying licenses to cover somewhere between 10 to 20 installations, and have OS 3.2 on all my systems. Isn’t this how things should be?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 18, 2020, 05:52:19 AM
Well, these kind of EULAs are not enforceable in most jurisdictions anyway so stressing about what it says is probably not worthwhile.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 18, 2020, 06:44:50 AM
Well, these kind of EULAs are not enforceable in most jurisdictions anyway so stressing about what it says is probably not worthwhile.
Another AmigaOS developer stating that the software license is to be ignored.
Thanks, duly noted.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 18, 2020, 06:58:59 AM
Hyperion only offer one license, and it is ridiculous, ambiguous and extremely limiting.
Apparently, only for one guy.

Yes, ONE or - 1, 2 or 3 - which can be either 1 or 2 or 3, or it can be 1 and 2 or 3?
In my English, a sentence that goes "A,B or C" lists three alternatives.


I am happy, but this is not about happiness, it is about finding out what the f Hyperion are trying to communicate, and what potential consequences there are.
No, Kolla, it is not. It is about "finding reasons to complain". You know that, I know that. There is no problem with the license as such, just the usual legal glibberish, read it with common sense, same as a court would, and there is no problem at all.

That is a rather big issue, don't you think?
No, I do not think so.

No, I have not, I am a *developer*. It is not my job to create licenses, read them, or check them.
[/quote]

I see, that figures - so then, why can you even possibly make the claim that it is not the license that prevents me from buying more copies of OS 3.1.4, and possibly the future OS 3.2?
[/QUOTE]
Because, Kolla, I know you. Nothing prevents you from buying. You just find reasons to for you to complain about to claim that something is preventing you - that is the true reason, not some license that is quite clear.

If I read this license, I'm quite sure what I'm able to do or not to do. It boils down to "one license per hardware, for systems which are designed to execute AmigaOs, no copies in the internet, do not share the stuff, do not mess with the binaries, use the right language setting, we waive responsibility to the degree possible", that's it.


Was it because it was *I* who wrote it, and you have a certain soft sport for me?
Yes, apparently. Everybody else, I would have taken serious. But this is just hillarious.

Blablabla technobabbel - I perfectly know *why*, sheesh.
Well, then why make a rumble.

It is nevertheless a solution. If it makes you feel any better, I typically use CygnusEd for these tasks, fully paid and registered - I find Olsen a much more pleasant person to communicate with that you ;)
Works for me if stop pestering me.

Many edit all prefs programs to use a different font than topaz/8 - what scum they are, breaking the license!
Yup, so don't use programs that modify the binaries that come with the Os. Guess why that rule is there. To keep customers away from doing stupid things, then come back and argue that their Os broke.

Dumb question - why did your program _allow_ people to chose fonts in different size then?
All of this was/is experimental, and no, it is not for the public.

It is almost a shame you did not release it though, would be ironic if the OS came with a program specifically there to break one of the conditions in the license.
It did not break the license because it did not modify binaries. Besides, a tool that would be delivered as part of the Os can hardly break a license.


Not if the license stays at it is.
What? Scalable prefs break the license? I'm sorry, I must be in the wrong movie. The license says "do not mess with the binaries". It does not forbid an Os component to provide a scalable GUI.

Not by the definition Microsoft uses, but with the Hyperion license it is not clear. My washing machine does have a computer in it, and so it is indeed a computer system too - potentially powerful enough to run an incarnation of UAE, and hence a possible target for AmigaOS.
No, it is not. It is not designed for executing AmigaOs, so installation of AmigaOs on it is excluded. That's what the license text says, quite clearly. Does not fall into 1), 2) or 3).


Then perhaps you should also stop being obnoxious with those who have read it.
The point is not the reading part. The point is that you make such a big noise about something completely harmless, and not because you don't understand it - I consider you smart enough.


Excuse me - it was *YOU* who wrote "Nope" when I stated that the license prevents me from buying any more copies of OS 3.1.4 - it was not Hyperion, it was YOU.
Correct. It is not the license that stops you from buying, Kolla, I say that again. The license is ok, it is you, trying to find reasons to complain, that is the reason. I know that from the very beginning - you just try to pick some fake arguments, that's all.

I only WISH it was actually someone from Hyperion who could bring answers here - you are clearly NOT the right person - not that it ever stops you though.
As licenses go? No, I'm not the right person, definitely. But you don't need that person either. You have made your decision to dislike Hyperion, and now you try to find reasons. it's quite obvious that nobody from Hyperion is willing to explain the license to do you either because the case is clear.

So why do you feel the need constantly jumping in to act like Hyperion's complaint department - all you have to do is... nothing!
I develop. That's it.

Is your ultimate goal for replying me, to have me banned from here? Is that all you want?
I admit that this would be a relief.

Btw - the ATAPIMajik module works great on all systems so far.
Not here at the betatesters side, so it will not ship.

And is ARexx' DATE(CENTURY) noted on the bug tracker? It still counts from 1900, not 2000.
I don't know what you mean by "still", but the problem there was is that it required some additional research to find out what exactly the Rexx specifications say before attempting a fix. There was some "wannabe" fix in one of the inofficial boing bags I looked at, but it also got things wrong. In some cases, it requires a bit more time to find out what exactly is right, and leaving a bug in is sometimes better than making a premature fix.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 18, 2020, 07:16:56 AM
1. We already have a mess.
2. We are at risk of losing critical mass to sustain the platform as a whole.
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
4. Therefore, open source risks further fragmentation.
5. Further fragmentation exponentially increases the risk of a fork losing critical mass--including the "official" fork.
6. Therefore we might end up with an even bigger mess.
That is pretty much it, indeed. Thank you. Item #3 is really a big issue. The big problem I see is a suitable moderation to create a climate within which development can proceed in an orderly fashion.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 18, 2020, 08:30:05 AM
And is ARexx' DATE(CENTURY) noted on the bug tracker? It still counts from 1900, not 2000.
I don't know what you mean by "still", but the problem there was is that it required some additional research to find out what exactly the Rexx specifications say before attempting a fix. There was some "wannabe" fix in one of the inofficial boing bags I looked at, but it also got things wrong. In some cases, it requires a bit more time to find out what exactly is right, and leaving a bug in is sometimes better than making a premature fix.

Other Rexx implementations have agreed, and show value according to language specification - ARexx does not.

https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ikja300/date.htm

Quote
Century
the number of days, including the current day, since and including January 1 of the last year that is a multiple of 100 in the form: ddddd (no leading zeros). Example: A call to DATE(C) on March 13, 1992, returns 33675, the number of days from 1 January 1900 to 13 March 1992. Similarly, a call to DATE(C) on November 20, 2001, returns 690, the number of days from 1 January 2000 to 20 November 2001.
Note: When used for date_format1, this option is valid when input_date is not specified.

Quote
[kolla@bergum] :> echo 'SAY DATE(C)' | regina
7354
and this the number of days from first of January 2000.

Quote
Minimig:> rx "SAY DATE(C)"
43878
and this is closer to the number of days from first of January 1900.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 18, 2020, 08:45:04 AM
What "critical mass" can we loose?  ;)

for commercial software development? When yes what commercial software development?

Most software developed right now are games and those bang the hardware and do not use the OS

For commercial software you must offer some kind of future, new chances

"preserving" the old platform is not enough
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 18, 2020, 08:48:30 AM
Other Rexx implementations have agreed, and show value according to language specification - ARexx does not.
Please note that my formulation used "was", not "is". There is a v47 rexxsyslib which fixes this according to the language specs, but not only for the 20th and 21st century, as the BB fix did. It should hopefully be ok for the years the Gregorian calendar is valid. It is this type of research that was missing.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 18, 2020, 08:58:40 AM
In my English, a sentence that goes "A,B or C" lists three alternatives.
of which one is "[a computer system] for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available"

My current laptop is an old macbook, and there are several versions of UAE available, for which I can buy (and have bought) kickstart and operating systems from Cloanto. So clearly, this is a computer system for which a version of AmigaOS is available. Or perhaps the products from Cloanto are not defined as "AmigaOS". There is even AmiKit, a commercial product, that exists solely for such computer systems - sold explicitly to be used with emulators and based on OS 3.1.4:

https://www.amikit.amiga.sk/amigaos314

Legal? Illegal? What gives.

Quote
Not by the definition Microsoft uses, but with the Hyperion license it is not clear. My washing machine does have a computer in it, and so it is indeed a computer system too - potentially powerful enough to run an incarnation of UAE, and hence a possible target for AmigaOS.
No, it is not. It is not designed for executing AmigaOs, so installation of AmigaOs on it is excluded.

* "designed for executing AmigaOs" is also not listed as a condition in the license - the closest you get is the one, out of three requirements of which only one must be met, about a "[a computer system] which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism", a point that is made redundant by the next point "or [a computer system] for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available", unless Cloanto's versions of AmigaOS are not considered legitimate.

* UAE is explicitly designed for executing AmigaOS.

Quote
That's what the license text says, quite clearly. Does not fall into 1), 2) or 3).

This only makes sense if you also say that there exists no legitimate AmigaOS to be used with software emulators.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 18, 2020, 08:58:44 AM
For commercial software you must offer some kind of future, new chances
Which "future"? Amiga is a retro-platform, it needs to run the old software, while getting rid of some of the problems the previous releases had, and getting rid of the patches people installed to improve experience.
I do not consider that there will be any big vendor of a big software house that may be interested in developing for such a platform. It is too small a niche, and too uncapable as a system. But I do see the need to maintain the system.

"preserving" the old platform is not enough
It's certainly more than enough for me, and more than enough work left for it. AmigaOs has too many roadblocks on the way to make it fit for something modern. If you want to do that, create something new and avoid all the constructional problems AmigaOs has - this is probably my main point of critique on AROS.

Just to give you ideas, the design of exec to build semaphores around signals, and multitasking coordination on a global Forbid() lock is just "upside down". In a real multi-core system, you build the system around synchronization primitives (semaphores or mutexes), then create message passing on top of that, and not vice-versa. Leave alone such "details" such as memory protection or resource tracking that is intrinsically missing, and the idiocracy of "BPTRs" and the duplication of devices and handlers on top of an almost, but not quite identical message passing system. AmigaOs is very badly prepared for the future. If you want to make it ready, ditch it and create something reasonable. But even then, I wouldn't hold my breath that any software house picks that up as a development target. AmigaDE failed, to name one, and for good reason.


Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 18, 2020, 12:02:19 PM
AROS exists solely because AmigaOS has been in constant legal limbo ever since 1994.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 18, 2020, 01:32:48 PM
AROS exists solely because AmigaOS has been in constant legal limbo ever since 1994.

i dont think so. aros has likely been attempted to move to a platforms amigaos has not been supposed to run on. in order to become hardware agnostic the os would need some serious rewrite anyway. thats why opening the sources of amniga os might be helpful to improve aros and its compatibility, but it wouldnt render aros project irrelevant in any way.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 18, 2020, 01:41:57 PM
in order to become hardware agnostic the os would need some serious rewrite anyway. thats why opening the sources of amniga os might be helpful to improve aros and its compatibility, but it wouldnt render aros project irrelevant in any way.
As I said before, AmigaOs is a very bad starting point for a platform agnostic operating system, the sources do not help there at all - it's all closely bound to the hardware it is running on. If you want a portable system, start with a portable source - AmigaOs isn't, and there is really not much to be learned there.

Look, for example, at the graphics system. Lack of abstraction, bitmap definitions that directly depend on the planar graphics system, graphics primitivities that are bound to the hardware like the copper, and low-level register banging. Also, graphics has quite some architecture to build up and modify copper lists (not present on any other hardware), and then nothing better to do than to use bypass functions that poke the created copper lists directly without going through the abstraction level.

AmigaOs is more an example of "how not to do it" than a good starting point for a development. You might be quite disappointed about the helpfulness of its sources...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: DrProcton on February 18, 2020, 01:44:42 PM
Thomas, when is supposed Os 3.2 to be out?
Have you set a release date?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
I’ve got to agree with Thomas here. Without strong governance there is real risk of fragmentation from an open source model.

oh man. im apparently late to these walls of text orgies. now, one thing i always am puzzled about is, why those who long so much for dictatorial situation do really want to align themselves with anything amiga. in my recollection amiga was always about anarchy. and it remains so. even the shady character of many if not most related projects and individuals behind them is an emanation of this fact.

bringing up open source in general or specifically aros, as if it was chaos incarnate in this comparison is slightly ridiculous.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 18, 2020, 01:50:08 PM
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
Those are just big words, what do they mean? I explained why (and how) AmigaOS development could continue exactly like it did IMHO - what are those "systems and structures  for open source governance" we allegedly need and why do we need them?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 18, 2020, 01:50:35 PM
AmigaOs is more an example of "how not to do it" than a good starting point for a development. You might be quite disappointed about the helpfulness of its sources...

a agree. this lection has been learned. therefore aros.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 18, 2020, 02:29:21 PM
Those are just big words, what do they mean? I explained why (and how) AmigaOS development could continue exactly like it did IMHO - what are those "systems and structures  for open source governance" we allegedly need and why do we need them?
I don't know who "we" is, but yes, "I need them". There is too much noise, too much time taken in discussions that are non-technical, and too much trolling going on. Too much "support issues" that are better handled by a first-level support team, and lack of moderation to define goals and direction. You aren't developing, so it's probably fair to ask those that do what they need.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 18, 2020, 02:31:00 PM
Thomas, when is supposed Os 3.2 to be out?
Have you set a release date?
How can I possibly know with all the mess going on? When, and even more important, if and by whom? Technical discussions here end usually in a troll orgy by the usual suspects, and non-technical ones I cannot answer.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 18, 2020, 02:38:58 PM
Technical discussions here end usually in a troll orgy by the usual suspects, and non-technical ones I cannot answer.
The troll orgy here has been about non-technical discussions, which you are only happy to jump into.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: DrProcton on February 18, 2020, 03:02:28 PM
Thomas, when is supposed Os 3.2 to be out?
Have you set a release date?
How can I possibly know with all the mess going on? When, and even more important, if and by whom? Technical discussions here end usually in a troll orgy by the usual suspects, and non-technical ones I cannot answer.
OK, but from a developer standpoint, is 3.2 ready for release now or will need some more work?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 18, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
@Thomas Richter

Quote
Or do you mean AmigaOs 4? That is not even part of the discussion between the two.

The trademark is licensed. Granted the court documents show that licensing would continue if Cloanto prevails in the trademark case, which is currently "stayed".
But since Ben's goal is to own the trademarks as well, I'm not sure you can dismiss this as not being part of the discussion.

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 18, 2020, 06:48:14 PM
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
Those are just big words, what do they mean? I explained why (and how) AmigaOS development could continue exactly like it did IMHO - what are those "systems and structures  for open source governance" we allegedly need and why do we need them?

Fair questions. I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a few days. this 2006 article from Sun Microsystems (http://web.archive.org/web/20070216214716/http://www.sun.com/emrkt/innercircle/newsletter/0906feature.html) is a little old but has some good points, getting into the merits and pitfalls of open source. Bear in mind that he's speaking about large, corporate-backed open-source efforts; we'd need something appropriate to the scale of our tiny community:
Quote
I believe the biggest challenge for an open source community is to understand in what ways governance will impact its community members. Governance is critical to an open source project. While open source licensing lets people have access to source code, this doesn't have to mean that chaos ensues. In fact, open source projects are typically very well organized and are run with a great deal of professionalism and discipline. Governance helps ensure that the people running the project can decide what gets incorporated into the source code.

There are one or two open source communities that really don't seem to have good governance. The lack of good governance leads to a loss of freedom for the people that use the software. Good governance lets open source communities decide upon standards, and good open source standards are implemented by multiple software products leading to the long-term sustainability of all of the software.

<snip>

There isn't a single one-size-fits-all approach to governance. Different communities have different needs, but there are also attributes that are essential to good governance — like meritocracy, transparency of process, and open access for everybody with the necessary skills to participate in a project. How governance gets structured really depends on the organization. For example, governance of the Apache Software Foundation is quite different than the governance of the GNOME Software Foundation. Both organizations are very meritocratic, but the Apache approach is very formal, while the GNOME governance model is more relaxed. Both are exemplars of good governance.

<snip>

Sun would have open sourced Java a long time ago. But open sourcing commercial software is more than just picking a license. Existing developers need to be respected. And, it's important to figure out how the governance of the project will respect the contributors. There are also issues about proving relicensing rights — not to mention producing an environment in which a well-designed and backwards compatible implementation of the Java platform can be kept in the marketplace. So, Sun isn't delaying. Sun is figuring out which license will work best, devising governance, reviewing copyright ownership and so on.

I've also been looking at Apache's (https://apache.org/foundation/governance/) and Mozilla's (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/governance/) governance practices.

Fundamentally I'd say it's a combination of institutional management, project management, and community management. The professionalism and discipline cited above are key. We need (1) user- and developer-backed decision makers to set long-term goals and priorities of individual releases, we need (2) community liaisons to stay on the pulse of user needs and to be the first line of communication so that (3) skilled developers can focus on executing the roadmap for a given release.

Community buy-in is absolutely critical at every stage, but part of our challenge is that we probably have as many opinions in the community as we have users :)
The professionalism and discipline are essential in the process so that everyone's opinions are respected, even if some people's opinions aren't adopted verbatim. That's how we prevent (further) fragmentation.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 18, 2020, 07:22:22 PM
dream on.

while work is being done without all these essential considerations. on amigadev slack channels people meet around the hour and work is being done on m68k and vampire stuff along with daily aros development and assets to os4 such as sdl 1.2 and 2.

i prefer uncoordinated community effort than nothing at all and certainly over useless talk.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on February 18, 2020, 09:43:03 PM
Well, yeah, of course it's wishful thinking. So much in Amigaland is.

And I absolutely agree that uncoordinated development is better than no development. But if we could actually get ourselves organized just think about how much better a position we'd be in as a community.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 19, 2020, 12:58:08 AM
hate to think we might have gathered ourselves around something that would drag ourselves along into the mud.
other than that, yeah, as i already mentioned, we are actually organizing ourselves. kind of. perhaps not in a way you would like. but everybody is free to stay away.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: giZmo350 on February 19, 2020, 01:12:26 AM
but everybody is free to stay away.

Or jump on ......  as I like to see it!   8)

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/76088000/jpg/_76088059_trainmathurreuters.jpg)

Man! Amiga Ireland 35 looked like sooooooooo much fun! The wifey actually told me that she would go to an Amiga event overseas with me the other night! Oh yeah!  :D
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Rotzloeffel on February 19, 2020, 09:36:41 AM
OK, but from a developer standpoint, is 3.2 ready for release now or will need some more work?

There is still some work left :) The new features needs a lot of testing…. stay tuned :)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 20, 2020, 04:24:26 PM
I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a few days. this 2006 article from Sun Microsystems (http://web.archive.org/web/20070216214716/http://www.sun.com/emrkt/innercircle/newsletter/0906feature.html) is a little old but has some good points, getting into the merits and pitfalls of open source. Bear in mind that he's speaking about large, corporate-backed open-source efforts; we'd need something appropriate to the scale of our tiny community:
Sun is actually a very good example for what I'm saying. The reality is that Sun, despite their promises and announcements earlier on, kept developing OpenOffice pretty much like a closed source project: The original development team in Hamburg was doing most of the work - and while it was theoretically possible for external developers to submit patches, those patches very rarely made it into the actual source code.

The situation got so bad that members of the Linux and free software communities established a fork called go-oo to make sure they could at least customize the build process to their needs - all versions of OpenOffice for Linux/BSD were actually go-oo builds, not OpenOffice builds.

But as you're well aware, none of that stopped OpenOffice from being a massive success - without any "open source governance" to speak of (other than for managing communities, translation efforts etc., obviously).

Fundamentally I'd say it's a combination of institutional management, project management, and community management.
If you choose to go that way, yes. But nobody is forcing you to do that.

I don't think you replied to my suggestion of not changing the development and release process at all other than releasing a source archive with every binary release you make?

Needs zero additional governance, and no project or community management skills that aren't already required anyway. Yet, it guarantees we're not facing the next dead-end if Thomas leaves the Amiga scene for another 15 year sabbatical or Hyperion turns out to be not as stellar an outfit as we all assumed (or simply vanishes).

The professionalism and discipline cited above are key. We need (1) user- and developer-backed decision makers to set long-term goals and priorities of individual releases, we need (2) community liaisons to stay on the pulse of user needs and to be the first line of communication so that (3) skilled developers can focus on executing the roadmap for a given release.
No we don't. All of that would be nice to have - for any open or closed source project. But we don't have them right now, and we're getting by somehow. We'd still be getting by without them if the project code was freely available.

The professionalism and discipline are essential in the process so that everyone's opinions are respected, even if some people's opinions aren't adopted verbatim. That's how we prevent (further) fragmentation.
Are you saying Thomas is not professional enough to prevent fragmentation? That's mean. Or, to use his words: "stop trolling, you have no clue" ;)

We established that fragmentation has become pretty bad already. We also established that the source code is already easily available and that people are doing things with it. We also established that people don't care much about copyright anymore - that includes the 3.1.4 team, which works for a man Thomas himself accused of pirating 1.3. Yet, despite all of this, 3.1.4 was quite a success. I don't see any evidence things might get worse on the fragmentation front.

Can you name any coder who could pull of a AmigaOS/Kickstart fork and isn't (a) long gone, (b) busy with AROS/MorphOS/OS4/ExecNG (c) stupid enough try to compete with a competent, well-respected team that's been working on the code for years (d) disillusioned by the prospect of being ignored due to not having THE NAME (e) laughed out of town every time he suggests he could improve some library? I can't.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 20, 2020, 05:18:47 PM
I don't think you replied to my suggestion of not changing the development and release process at all other than releasing a source archive with every binary release you make?
Because that wouldn't stop the usual noise, would create the trolling that is so much the nature of this "community", and it would still create forked system components, creating an overall setup that is not maintainable anymore. We already have this trouble today, now multiply this by the number of Os components and the number of custom builds. It is already hard enough to debug a system like AmigaOs as "patched up" systems are the norm and not the exception. If we now add "patched up system components" to the game, how is that going to help?

Whoever wants to develop is invited to join, but with coordination and moderation, please.

Needs zero additional governance, and no project or community management skills that aren't already required anyway.
Huh? But of course it needs "additional governance".

Yet, it guarantees we're not facing the next dead-end if Thomas leaves the Amiga scene for another 15 year sabbatical or Hyperion turns out to be not as stellar an outfit as we all assumed (or simply vanishes).
You already have the dead-end. Access to Os4 would be finally lost, and I'm personally not willing to develop in the kind of aggressive environment that is the consequence, well knowing the "community". Thanks, but no, thanks.

Are you saying Thomas is not professional enough to prevent fragmentation? That's mean. Or, to use his words: "stop trolling, you have no clue" ;)
No, I'm not. How ccould I prevent that, with the sources out of the door? That is impossible. Besides, why should the work break down without me, on the Hyperion side?

Or, for the sake of the argument, let's consider Cloanto makes the Os open source. Who prevents me from taking the sources and create my own fork? I can develop indepedently, publish what I like, and avoid communications with Cloanto. They can do what they want, I can do what I want, then we have AmigaOs times two. As long as I can use mine, I'm happy, and Cloanto, well, that's their problem then.

We established that fragmentation has become pretty bad already. We also established that the source code is already easily available and that people are doing things with it. We also established that people don't care much about copyright anymore - that includes the 3.1.4 team, which works for a man Thomas himself accused of pirating 1.3.
I'm sorry, but I care about copyright. If you say "people are doing things with it", well, then that's "a fork". I cannot prevent that, but at least, the current situation we have now keeps the damage somewhat under control as such copies are not floating around, and it also prevents users from filing reports.

Yet, despite all of this, 3.1.4 was quite a success. I don't see any evidence things might get worse on the fragmentation front.
I do. Look around,

Can you name any coder who could pull of a AmigaOS/Kickstart fork and isn't (a) long gone, (b) busy with AROS/MorphOS/OS4/ExecNG (c) stupid enough try to compete with a competent, well-respected team that's been working on the code for years (d) disillusioned by the prospect of being ignored due to not having THE NAME (e) laughed out of town every time he suggests he could improve some library? I can't.
Yes. Me. (-: Let's consider: Again, for the sake of the argument, why should I be stupid enough to work for Cloanto for nothing if I can work for myself for nothing? (-;

Or even differently - I do not get the "business model" Cloanto has here. I don't believe that they are that folly.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 20, 2020, 06:44:05 PM
Yes. Me. (-: Let's consider: Again, for the sake of the argument, why should I be stupid enough to work for Cloanto for nothing if I can work for myself for nothing? (-;
For the same reason you're stupid enough (your words, not mine) to work for Hyperion for free?

And again: I have no idea why you keep bringing up Cloanto. It's almost as if something regarding open source came up in the recent settlement discussions and you feel threatened by it. Care to comment?

I'm discussing the general idea of freeing the IP, not some Cloanto takeover. If Ben wants to free the IP, or Ben finally sells the IP to Trevor and he's freeing it - I'm all for it.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 20, 2020, 06:49:19 PM
Who prevents me from taking the sources and create my own fork?

why in hell do you think anyone should prevent you?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 20, 2020, 06:51:03 PM
If Ben wants to free the IP, or Ben finally sells the IP to Trevor and he's freeing it
haha.. ha.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 20, 2020, 07:03:26 PM
@Thomas Richter

Quote
Or even differently - I do not get the "business model" Cloanto has here

I am unaware of Cloanto doing much more than requesting feedback through their cloanto.org site.
If there is anything in print regarding plans/business model I'd appreciate a link so I can enhance my understanding.

The understanding expressed almost a year ago (and alluded to often since) was that amiga.com was to be used to discuss such things, but as we all know, the domain got drawn into the trademark lawsuit and the lawyers effectively prevented it's use for this purpose.

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 20, 2020, 07:13:40 PM
For the same reason you're stupid enough (your words, not mine) to work for Hyperion for free?
Well, if Cloanto would keep things closed and creates a workable environment, works for me. So it's not Cloanto or Hyperion in that sense, though the model.

And again: I have no idea why you keep bringing up Cloanto.
Wasn't this what this thread was all about? And some speculations and statements from them that they want to do exactly that?

I'm discussing the general idea of freeing the IP, not some Cloanto takeover. If Ben wants to free the IP, or Ben finally sells the IP to Trevor and he's freeing it - I'm all for it.
Well, that's what we are discussing, except that I consider it unlikely that Ben wants to release anything. As far as Travor is concerned, I have no idea.

Open Source can be a commercial success, but that requires a business model. I do not quite see that - if you get can the thing for free for download, well, as far as I know the Amiga users, there would be no point buying anything. So why support an open source distribution company?

On the Linux side, I understand the business. You get support, some in-house components, certifications for particular hardware, you get the updates for a limited time, you get consulting and service - as long as there are commercial partners and customers on board, it is a viable model. We don't have that in Amiga-land, there *are* no commercial customers here. Just folly.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 20, 2020, 08:09:40 PM
Open Source can be a commercial success, but that requires a business model. I do not quite see that - if you get can the thing for free for download, well, as far as I know the Amiga users, there would be no point buying anything. So why support an open source distribution company?
I'm just guessing here, but I'd say Cloanto's business model is not selling operating systems, but selling user-friendly, all-in-one, easy to install nostalgia trips (i.e. Amiga/Commodore Forever). Cloanto's business does not depend on OS sales. He's been selling a bundle containing all Amiga ROMs for something like 70 cent on Google's playstore for ages, I doubt he's getting rich from that.

Why buy AmigaOS if it's open source? Because...


Should be enough to support the effort of making a physical edition.

Btw.: I admire your guts talking about 'business models' while working for/with Hyperion.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 20, 2020, 08:41:43 PM
Meanwhile, in the very much fragmented world of open source development...

https://opensource.apple.com/
https://opensource.microsoft.com/
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 21, 2020, 01:49:21 AM
On the Linux side, I understand the business. You get support, some in-house components, certifications for particular hardware, you get the updates for a limited time, you get consulting and service - as long as there are commercial partners and customers on board, it is a viable model. We don't have that in Amiga-land, there *are* no commercial customers here. Just folly.
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that Linux didn't start out that way.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2020, 05:41:34 AM
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that Linux didn't start out that way.
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that AmigaOs runs on obsolete hardware, and has an obsolete design as "operating system". Linux had a future because it had a sane design, and it run on hardware that offered a future. AmigaOs has neither. It is pretty pointless to compare the two.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 21, 2020, 02:14:57 PM
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that AmigaOs runs on obsolete hardware, and has an obsolete design as "operating system". Linux had a future because it had a sane design, and it run on hardware that offered a future. AmigaOs has neither. It is pretty pointless to compare the two.
Nine out of ten times, it is YOU who keep dragging in Linux as comparison.

Why not compare against something more similar, like Atari MiNT or RISC OS?

Oh, because Linux is the only open source system you ever had any contact with, right?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 21, 2020, 02:23:35 PM
the comparation is a little silly

nobody expects anything amiga related, even if open source, to become a success like Linux

I already wrote that it is dangerous for software on a small market to be dependent on the decisions or fate of one person. If Cloanto wins and they cannot come to a agreement with Hyperion (Ben H.) 3.1.4 is dead and all your work vanishes. If 3.1 would have been open source and you would have contributed to it, it would not be important what anyone else does. And as I already wrote too... the danger of lots of forkes is not big because you need skilled devs for it who want to do it. Those are rare in the amiga community so finally there would very propably be just one fork you (perhaps together with one or two others) would manage. No different than now, just without the danger of being killed by others. And it would be easier for people to take part because of no NDA to sign. I cannot understand your aversion against open source. Even if it is a little more chaotic the advantage of being independent outweighs the potential disadvantages, at least for me. And the problems closed source has is obvious when you look at the situation of Amiga OS. The same already happened to lots of amiga software.

It is anyway just a theoretical discussion... it all depends how the legal argument is decided. Nobody here can influence that and nobody will ask you either. If Cloanto really open source 3.1 (what they repeated a couple of times in recent years) you have to think if you want to continue. In this case 3.1.4 is in doubt anyway because of the 4.1 sources you used (as I understand it). If Hyperion wins or it ends without decision nothing changes for you.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on February 21, 2020, 03:40:26 PM
So if opensource Linux makes sense because it's on x86/64 why doesn't AROS?  Where are those contributions?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2020, 04:09:16 PM
I already wrote that it is dangerous for software on a small market to be dependent on the decisions or fate of one person.
I do not disagree with that at all. This is precisely why I suggested a model where it is not driven by a single person, but a board or a consortium. But not in general public, but in an ordered, moderated way.

If Cloanto wins and they cannot come to a agreement with Hyperion (Ben H.) 3.1.4 is dead and all your work vanishes.
3.1.4 won't go away anymore. In worst case, it may not be available as a product, but people have it and use it.

I cannot understand your aversion against open source.
Because experience shows that a developer driven model does not create good products. It creates source code that is good for the developers, but not for the users. I believe we had this already. Do you want AmigaOs to be toyed around with, or do you want it to stay a usable product.

it all depends how the legal argument is decided. Nobody here can influence that and nobody will ask you either.
Nobody will ask me, but I can make my decisions on whether or not I will contribute to such an enterprise.

If Cloanto really open source 3.1 (what they repeated a couple of times in recent years) you have to think if you want to continue.
In case this wasn't clear from the beginning, I am not.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 21, 2020, 04:27:54 PM
they cannot contribute because they signed NDAs with Hyperion not allowing them to contribute to anything else
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 21, 2020, 04:55:26 PM
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that Linux didn't start out that way.
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that AmigaOs runs on obsolete hardware, and has an obsolete design as "operating system". Linux had a future because it had a sane design, and it run on hardware that offered a future. AmigaOs has neither. It is pretty pointless to compare the two.
You're making a lot of inferences.

I didn't say AmigaOS doesn't run on obsolete hardware, or that it doesn't have an obsolete design.  And I'm not comparing Linux to AmigaOS per se, I'm comparing the Linux *license* to the AmigaOS license; Linux is open source, and AmigaOS is not.

And I didn't say that AmigaOS has the potential to be developed into a system as sophisticated as Linux.  This is a straw man that you have constructed in an attempt to dismiss my position that it would be beneficial to the community to open source AmigaOS.

AmigaOS will likely never amount to anything significant, but if the code were open source, at least there would be 20 people working on it instead of two.

Edit: Tried to tone it down a bit. :)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2020, 05:06:10 PM
AmigaOS will likely never amount to anything significant, but if the code were open source, at least there would be 20 people working on it instead of two.
Look, we had this discussion on "user driven" and "developer driven" already. Which part wasn't clear?

20 developers help nothing if they don't work in a direction that helps the user. We have precisely that in Linux - or can you give me a reason for "systemd", replacing a completely workable, simple, easy to configure solution, by a feature monster that is hard to tame?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 21, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
AmigaOS will likely never amount to anything significant, but if the code were open source, at least there would be 20 people working on it instead of two.
Look, we had this discussion on "user driven" and "developer driven" already. Which part wasn't clear?
It's not a matter of clarity, but of agreement -- I don't find your arguments very convincing.
 
Quote
20 developers help nothing if they don't work in a direction that helps the user. We have precisely that in Linux - or can you give me a reason for "systemd", replacing a completely workable, simple, easy to configure solution, by a feature monster that is hard to tame?
Well, now we finally agree on something. :)  systemd is an abomination.  But I don't think releasing AmigaOS under an open source license is going to cause it to run straight to systemd, or anything like it.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2020, 05:18:10 PM
It's not a matter of clarity, but of agreement -- I don't find your arguments very convincing.
Then let's look at where Linux is successful - in the server market. Where do we have professionals (in the sense of "being paid for") contributing to Linux? ITo the server market.

Where is Linux not successful - at the desktop. Where is it driven by hobbyists? Well...

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2020, 05:50:35 PM
amiga system as a "successful product on desktop".. i think someone mentioned already, that it looks like the decisive part of audience is either collecting it or buying it "to support the platform".

you dont need any improvements to a quarter of century old os, to flawlessly run quarter of century old software. the few flaws are easily overcome to fire up this or other game, especially in winuae.

so this whole effort is actually about "upgrading the os" even if denied, for just a small group of people who really are using it for for productivity. are there any left? of is it an effort for very those who like to "to toy with the os" and its source code, while claiming it would be wrong, if others had this opportunity too.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2020, 06:11:19 PM
you dont need any improvements to a quarter of century old os, to flawlessly run quarter of century old software. the few flaws are easily overcome to fire up this or other game, especially in winuae.
Then why open source it if nothing needs to be done, in your opinion? If you ask me, large media support in 3.1.4 was well worth it, but maybe that's just me.

so this whole effort is actually about "upgrading the os" even if denied, for just a small group of people who really are using it for for productivity. are there any left?
Actually, it is pretty much for every user.  The point is not so much "upgrading" on my side, it is more "fixing the most obvious problems and anoyances".
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 21, 2020, 06:15:27 PM
This discussion is pointless. Somebody working for Hyperion critisizing the lack of a viable business model for an AmigaOS open source project? An AmigaOS developer pointing out that Linux is "not successful" on the desktop? An AmigaOS 3 developer worried about "loosing consistent look and feel" when we go open source? This is a parody of a discussion, at best.

Thomas is simply coughing up whatever comes to his mind first and sounds scary enough - just to completely drop the issue once he gets to hear some counter-arguments. Apparently, open source would be terrible, because "so many different desktops would arise" - until you point out that we never suffered from a lack of desktops. Then it turns out desktops do not actually  bother him - only Kickstart forks do. But obviously, none of the existing Kickstart forks count as counter examples, because... reasons. And did you know THERE ARE NO PROFESSIONALS WORKING ON DESKTOP LINUX?

I think there are two things we can take away from this 'discussion':

1. Thomas will walk away if AmigaOS becomes free software. So there.
2. Stop trolling, you guys.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2020, 06:27:31 PM
This discussion is pointless. Somebody working for Hyperion critisizing the lack of a viable business model for an AmigaOS open source project?
Hyperion has a model, but is unable to run a business. That's not quite the same.

An AmigaOS developer pointing out that Linux is "not successful" on the desktop?
It is completely irrelevant as desktop Os - face it.

An AmigaOS 3 developer worried about "loosing consistent look and feel" when we go open source? This is a parody of a discussion, at best.
Hardly. We would get multple AmigaOs'es that are partially, but not totally compatible - causing frustration at the user side.

Thomas is simply coughing up whatever comes to his mind first and sounds scary enough
No, just what I observe at other projects.

just to completely drop the issue once he gets to hear some counter-arguments.
Drop which issue? There wasn't a convincing issue for open source, just "but I want it".

Apparently, open source would be terrible, because "so many different desktops would arise"
I never said this. The desktop example is what happend on the Linux end - fragmentation.

- until you point out that we never suffered from a lack of desktops. Then it turns out desktops do not actually  bother him - only Kickstart forks do.
In case you did not get it - "Desktops on Linux" show the actual issue what is wrong with the development model. If that wasn't clear to begin with.

But obviously, none of the existing Kickstart forks count as counter examples, because... reasons.
If you would *mind* reading what I wrote? Which forks? Kick 3.0 is not a fork, and AROS is another market.

And did you know THERE ARE NO PROFESSIONALS WORKING ON DESKTOP LINUX?
Apparently, no. Who sells desktop services for Linux? To whom? Who bothers?

1. Thomas will walk away if AmigaOS becomes free software. So there.
2. Stop trolling, you guys.
Then why you do? You did not even counter-arguments - you rather sound like Monty Pyhton's argument-clinic. To be taken serious, you need to provide arguments - this post does not.

Thanks, Mr. Quality-Journalist. Again.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 21, 2020, 06:37:16 PM
Hyperion has a model, but is unable to run a business. That's not quite the same.
You are financing Hyperion's lawsuit, without recieving any kind of compensation for yourself. The a1k.org crowd even had to collect money and hardware donations to buy you an A1200 you needed for development - because Hyperion wouldn't even pay for that, apparently. And that was *after* 3.1.4 had been on sale for months. Yet you complain that open source is not an option for lack of a viable business model.

Enough said.

And kudos for the personal attacks, really mature behaviour.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2020, 07:02:12 PM
The a1k.org crowd even had to collect money and hardware donations to buy you an A1200 you needed for development - because Hyperion wouldn't even pay for that, apparently.

See, this is why I call you a "quality journalist". You know nothing, you guess, and then make up "News". Thanks for that. No, the reason is that I *did not want anything* from Hyperion and refused their offer. I'm not in business with them, and I do not work *for* them.

See, this is what I like about this "community". Whatever you do, you do it wrong. If I would have taken something from them, you would have claimed that they bribed me. Now that I did not intentionally, it's their faulty model, so I'm wrong again.
 
If I don't develop anything, it's my fault of blocking. If I do, it's wrong because it is "for" the wrong crowd.

Now, consider that we have this type of discussion every time for every feature that may or may not make it into a future development. It is exactly that why I believe that open source does not work in this "community".

I cannot possibly do anything right, so I don't even want to have this type of discussion in the development either.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 21, 2020, 09:01:45 PM
they cannot contribute because they signed NDAs with Hyperion not allowing them to contribute to anything else

There's nothing like that in the NDA. Why jump to these false conclusions about a document you have not even seen?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Pyromania on February 21, 2020, 09:04:19 PM
Thanx again for all the hard work in AmigaOS, Thomas.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 21, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
There's nothing like that in the NDA. Why jump to these false conclusions about a document you have not even seen?

Because it is implicit - it is not Hyperion not allowing anything, it is AROS that cannot risk having AmigaOS developers contributing, because who know what Hyperion might do then - exactly because the documents that you refer to are not public.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 21, 2020, 09:47:37 PM
@kolla:

I don't see what that has to do with an NDA. If someone was pasting AmigaOS code into AROS, that would be a copyright violation, regardless of whether they had signed any NDA.

And it's quite normal that NDAs and similar contracts are not public; that's standard practice and I have never seen a company website where such documents were available. For example, A-Eon NDAs have never been published on A-Eon's site. I couldn't find any at Cloanto's either (although maybe they don't need to use them as they don't really do software development, they just sell a free emulator written by someone else).
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 21, 2020, 10:54:37 PM
Yeah, we should all be happy that Hyperion never was involved in development of WinUAE.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Rob on February 22, 2020, 12:17:29 AM
There's nothing like that in the NDA. Why jump to these false conclusions about a document you have not even seen?

Because it is implicit - it is not Hyperion not allowing anything, it is AROS that cannot risk having AmigaOS developers contributing, because who know what Hyperion might do then - exactly because the documents that you refer to are not public.

I must say that I've lost count of the number of times that a current or former Amiga OS delevoper has bemoaned the fact that they cannot contribute to AROS because of the NDA they signed with Hyperion.  Let's also not forget the huge number of developers who opened up to the public that they wanted to work on Amiga OS but had to make the hard choice not to because the NDA presented to them was just too restrictive for their liking.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on February 22, 2020, 05:28:48 AM
I must say that I've lost count of the number of times that a current or former Amiga OS delevoper has bemoaned the fact that they cannot contribute to AROS because of the NDA they signed with Hyperion.  Let's also not forget the huge number of developers who opened up to the public that they wanted to work on Amiga OS but had to make the hard choice not to because the NDA presented to them was just too restrictive for their liking.

Please let us know the "huge number" of developers wishing to contribute to AROS that made the hard choice.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 22, 2020, 07:11:28 AM
@Gulliver
The “huge number” was about people who don’t wish to work for or be associated with Hyperion, people who who refuse to sign any NDA with them. The number of people who have said they cannot contribute to AROS due to NDA is of course not a big number, as not that many have been willing to sign up with Hyperion in the first place. But some of these few have stated numerous of times, that contributing to AROS would be problematic for AROS, due to the NDAs they have signed, and the risk of exposing AROS to legal actions from Hyperion. Who stated this? Most prominent, Olsen.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: DrProcton on February 22, 2020, 08:28:26 AM
Personally I don't think NDA is the problem right now.
The problem is Hyperion. Because it's in constant near-bankrupcy status (money dilapidated in legal battles) , and in the verge of losing even the licensing, as Cloanto will obviously win the dispute even against the best lawyers of planet earth.

From what we are told here, Thomas will not contribute to OS 3.x if Cloanto wins the legal dispute and/or open the sources. Working for free on a commercial product is OK if the money go to Hyperion, but not if the money go the the legit proprietor? I don't understand.

Having a bug-fixed enhanced and "in development" Amiga OS 3 is a need for the Amiga community, and doesn't matter if it comes from Hyperion, Cloanto or from an open source project to me.

I really like 3.1.4 and I'm awaiting for 3.2. I will buy it as I did for 3.1.4 even if I would had preferred to give my money to Thomas instead of Hyperion. I hope Thomas will rethink his commitments and continue OS3.2 development even after the legal issues are resolved in favor of Cloanto.

A technical question: If OS 3.2 will see the light - an OS3.1.4 installation could be updated without losing any of 3.2 new features or the best solution would be to make a fresh install?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 22, 2020, 10:08:01 AM
From what we are told here, Thomas will not contribute to OS 3.x if Cloanto wins the legal dispute and/or open the sources. Working for free on a commercial product is OK if the money go to Hyperion, but not if the money go the the legit proprietor? I don't understand.
The question is not Cloanto or Hyperion, I couldn't care less. The question is the development model. I'm not willing to tame trolls to get an ordered development done - this won't work.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2020, 10:27:27 AM
that is a silly sentence...

even 2-3 skilled developers would make a huge difference
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2020, 10:32:59 AM
I understand what Thomas says but I do not share his view

He wants to control the development and decide not have discussions with others who might then forke 3.1 and make something not ciompatible. I do not see this happen but of course there could be discussions between developers. But finally the lead devs with most experience in the software decide. I see that in Aros happening and no forking and no problems. In case of 3.1 it would be the same devs deciding that decide now working on a closed source owned by Hyperion.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2020, 10:34:18 AM
that they cannot contribute to Aros because of NDA signed and Hyperion was said from several developers in the recent years so they cannot be all wrong
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 22, 2020, 10:36:57 AM
He wants to control the development and decide not have discussions with others who might then forke 3.1 and make something not ciompatible.
Is there  actually a reason that you always get this wrong? I *did not* say that at all. I said that I want a moderation and a board to make decisions, and not the typical "he who screams loudest wins".
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: DrProcton on February 22, 2020, 10:57:47 AM
that they cannot contribute to Aros because of NDA signed and Hyperion was said from several developers in the recent years so they cannot be all wrong
I don't know NDA contents, and maybe it's true that Hyperion NDA oblige his developers to not contribute to Aros, but from what I understand this doesn't seem to be a problem for Thomas, who simply is not interested in Aros. And that's perfectly OK. This is a hobby development for him and I think he should be free to decide to support an OS and not support another one. Don't think NDA makes much difference in this context. I also believe that if Battilana decides to Open source Amiga OS 3 there will surely be a strict coordination/moderation. Don't forget that he remains the owner of trademarks and legacy products, so is "in his interest" to keep OS developing clean and avoid silly forks and so on..
It would be stupid for Cloanto doing otherwise
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2020, 10:59:23 AM
I am on Aros development forum (Slack) and see how it works. And there this what you expect is not happenig
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2020, 11:10:11 AM
I cannot speak for Thomas but I assume too he would not be interested to contribute directly to Aros even without any legal issues. But f.e. people could look in his sources and integrate it in Aros (if propriate). At the moment f.e. the Aros devs work on extending datatypes including saving in lots of different formats. Looking in sources would make life easier.

Or take another example... if MUI would be open source (I know it is MorphOS not Hyperion) everyone would have compatible implementations and not everyone has to do the same again. A huge waste of resources. And it ends in not compatible forks finally. Working together on a common open source base has lots of adavantages for everyone. I know that is a pipe dream not happening...

So I really do not understand why many devs in such a small community prefer the closed source model (not just Thomas and Hyperion, also the MorphOS team).

Regarding Cloanto we will see. As I understand it you cannot simply open source 3.1 because of commercial parts included. For those you would have to get the OK, additionally you must analyse the sources to see what is copyright and what is not. And you must make it compatible to GCC (what is today normally used). That sounds like a lot of work (and you need skilled devs to do the migration to GCC). So we will see what will happen "if" Cloanto would win.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 22, 2020, 11:23:31 AM
@OlafS3:

I don't get this fixation on ancient OS3.1...You want to replace AROS code with OS3.1 code to get an improvement in terms of speed and compatibility but the result would still only be OS3.1 which is 25 years behind. You would need to then fix all the OS3.1 bugs yet again. At least you should want to base AROS on a more recent and better version...!?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2020, 11:34:48 AM
Why are cou contributing to 3.1 then?

The discussion was done lots of times already. We are here because we like amiga how it was and could have been. A new modernized OS has not the same attraction to the amiga community than a modernized but still compatible OS. That is where Aros f.e. fits in.

Breaking everything to modernize it would be possible but I doubt that it would have the same attraction and I doubt that it will attract many new users from outside. Perhaps you can integrate layers like Microsoft did in Windows to stay compatible when migrating to 64bit but that makes a lot of work certainly. I like Aros because it offers compatibility and adds features like RTG, network and USB not existing on 3.1. The big versions of Aros running on AMD64 including 64bit and SMP never interested me. For "modern stuff" I have Windows and Linux.  And expecially Aros 68k offers the "real amiga feeling" because you can mix amiga and aros components in it. For me (as someone interested in amiga stuff) the perfect solution.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 22, 2020, 11:37:58 AM
I'm not contributing to 3.1, I'm contributing to 3.2.

It's not about breaking anything but rather the opposite; it's about fixing longstanding bugs and making the system more stable.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2020, 11:40:37 AM
I understand that Thomas and you want to safe the existing old 3.1 platform

For me the attraction is to have something more modern and complete but still compatible

And for compatibility (and sometimes speed on 68k hardware) looking in the old sources would help
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 22, 2020, 11:45:22 AM
I don't care about 3.1, you are the one saying "3.1 this, 3.1 that". I skipped 3.1 altogether, and moved on from 3.0 to 3.5 in 1999 once I got my prerelease of 3.5, and would probably have left the platform at that time (as far as writing new software for it) otherwise. 3.1 is just too lacking.

If you want something "modern and complete but still compatible" you will be pleased with 3.2. Unfortunately AROS is neither modern nor complete nor compatible, and would not be even with open access to 3.1 sources (since 3.1 itself is none of those things).
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Rob on February 22, 2020, 11:58:00 AM
I must say that I've lost count of the number of times that a current or former Amiga OS delevoper has bemoaned the fact that they cannot contribute to AROS because of the NDA they signed with Hyperion.  Let's also not forget the huge number of developers who opened up to the public that they wanted to work on Amiga OS but had to make the hard choice not to because the NDA presented to them was just too restrictive for their liking.

Please let us know the "huge number" of developers wishing to contribute to AROS that made the hard choice.

This wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2020, 12:37:28 PM
you seem to be a specialist for Aros...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: DrProcton on February 22, 2020, 01:26:23 PM
I think both projects are awesome and should be supported and loved by the community.
Aros is taking huge steps now thanks to Vampire guys commitment. It needs more resources but vampire cards seems a perfect fit.
3.2 is awesome too because it's aimed to legacy hardware and is a coherent way to update any classic Amiga (and vampires too)
I think it could become a new and better 3.9. It's already better than 3.9 from many aspects.
Thomas ability is out of question here.
I don't know if today an open sourced 3.x could be beneficial to Aros, maybe not, but I believe that if an open source model was adopted in years 95-99 some of the nasty legal things would never happen.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 22, 2020, 02:08:03 PM
I understand that Thomas and you want to safe the existing old 3.1 platform.
Actually, I want to preserve the 68K platform as retro platform.

For me the attraction is to have something more modern and complete but still compatible
And for compatibility (and sometimes speed on 68k hardware) looking in the old sources would help
[/QUOTE]
Look, I cannot tell you want you have to want, surely, but you probably have to find out yourself that this goal is "contradiction in terms". First, if you want to create something modern, please do and avoid the idiocracies of AmigaOs. You cannot stay compatible and avoid nonsense such as BPTRs at the same time. You cannot become modern without a decent model for multiprocessing, yet at the same time keep constructions such as "Forbid()" working. Any decent operation system should have a model for security, but AmigaOs lacks even essentials for process and data isolation that make its simple inter-process communication possible. The whole graphics system is upside down, and in desolate state. The dos library and its BPTRs are alien to the system. The lack of memory and resource protection is at the very core of the system.

If you want to create something modern, the Os sources are of little help. Actually, the whole construction is of little help. Ditch it, and create something real.
The AmigaOs sources are a quite bad example how to design and implement an Os and its probably simpler not to look to avoid the errors that have been made.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 22, 2020, 02:28:13 PM
@cgutjahr

Quote
It's almost as if something regarding open source came up in the recent settlement discussions

Since open source has been talked to death on various websites, it certainly seems like more than a coincidence that it begins again in great fervor here...right after the most recent "round" of settlement talks resulted in no resolution whatsoever.

It would also make sense given classic (all variations) has long been acknowledged as Hyperion's best seller. Let's be honest...currently it is their -only- product that can raise (in Amiga terms) reasonable revenue. Given the extremely forthright statements from Thomas, it is apparent that this product would be in jeopardy without the backing of Thomas and the team.

Agree/disagree?

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 22, 2020, 02:48:53 PM
@OlafS3:

I don't get this fixation on ancient OS3.1...You want to replace AROS code with OS3.1 code to get an improvement in terms of speed and compatibility but the result would still only be OS3.1 which is 25 years behind. You would need to then fix all the OS3.1 bugs yet again. At least you should want to base AROS on a more recent and better version...!?

and i dont get your fixation in implying aros is just an incomplete 3.1 wannabe. it is widely known that aros is on pair on os4 and morphos in many areas, and probably better in some (latest gallium/mesa as example) even though this might not affect m68k that much. it is known that aros code has been used in morphos, as morphos team properly shared back their changes. it may be that aros code is used in os4, but it was never admitted (x-kernel - multicore experiment? ;))

now, that aros is a reimplementation, and not just of 3.1 (as you wrongly insist, just to make it look bad), but compatible to the whole range of 1.x-3.x, it might be obvious to an intelligent person, that it doesnt necessarily introduces 3.1 bugs in the first place.

edit: as its pretty sure now you will start a rant about your pet reaction not being implemented in aros, ill just remind, that stone age old class act was happily running on aros last i have checked and enough for any reaction app i was motivated to try.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 22, 2020, 04:58:49 PM
Actually, I want to preserve the 68K platform as retro platform.

You mean you want to preserve Amiga 68k as a retro platform, 68k as architecture manages perfectly fine without Amiga.

Isn't it ironic that you rely on open source software to accomplish your goal.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: arnljot on February 22, 2020, 08:14:25 PM
So, back on topic...

First there was a rumour that a settlement was a possibility. Does anyone know what concrete positions that were discussed, or if it was proforma discussions mandated by the court? Secondly, it's rumoured that these talks failed, if they were not proforma, but concrete talks, does anyone have an idea where it stranded?

Lastly, some here has taken it as a foregone conclusion that Cloanto will come out on top in this, why is this?

On the offspring topic here on a proprietary license vs OS license, I agree it gives the most freedom to the user as defined by the Free Software Foundation. This simply cannot be denied, if it'll give us the best official Amiga OS, I don't know. Atm we have 3.x, 3.1.4, 4.x, MorphOS and Aros to name a few... What would happen if who ever controlled the classic Amiga OS open sourced it, no one can really tell. But that steering would be more challenging is certain, also with a model of a closed source base and a committee. But both are functions of letting more people in.

If I had a say, I'd found a Amiga Foundation, have all Amiga player buy in at a low price, and then select officials to it. Amigakit, Idcomp, Cloanto, Hyperion and Aeon. Have a nonprofit own Amiga OS. That would at least reduce the risk that the OS stands and fall with one entity. If a non profit owned the Amiga OS, maybe it would remove some of the tension in the Amiga market.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 22, 2020, 09:05:07 PM
arnljot

the current court orders regarding the two lawsuits (https://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8479#100892)

Basically this entire thread took off right after this was made evident on page #1 of this thread.

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: TribbleSmasher on February 22, 2020, 11:14:57 PM
I request to initiate detonation of a timebomb causing appearance of this thread to happen in another timeline we are not aware of.

(if this is improper English, then, well, swallow Richard)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 22, 2020, 11:47:18 PM
aros is a reimplementation, and not just of 3.1 (as you wrongly insist, just to make it look bad)

Actually it's the official AROS site that is "making it look bad":

http://www.aros.org/documentation/users/faq.php#why-are-you-only-aiming-for-compatibility-with-3-1

The pages on the official site are all just talking about 3.1, same as OlafS3 does. You seem to be the only one making ridiculous claims that it is suddenly better than OS4 and MorphOS. Even 3.1 is only 82% implemented, you can see it there at http://www.aros.org/introduction/status/everything.php
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Tygre on February 23, 2020, 03:46:43 AM
http://www.aros.org/documentation/users/faq.php#why-are-you-only-aiming-for-compatibility-with-3-1
http://www.aros.org/introduction/status/everything.php

Hi Minuous!

Thanks for pointing to these pages, very interesting 8)

The choice of AROS to consider only 3.1 is well explained on the first page and, amusingly, explains that "the discussions ended in either flame wars or reiteration of the arguments."... Same as here ;)

Cheers!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: giZmo350 on February 23, 2020, 04:04:09 AM
@Tygre

See what ya started here mate? Only you have the power to stop it!   8)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 23, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
@Minuous
Maybe you should take a class with professor Richter on the difference between implementations and interfaces.

OS 3.2 is also “lacking tons” compared to 3.1, stuff was removed, support was dropped, and 3.2 isn’t doing any better in this regard - how about we whine a little about that?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 23, 2020, 09:57:19 AM
The following quote from the AROS page is remarkable:

Quote
There have been discussions about writing an advanced OS with the features of the AmigaOS. This has been dropped for a good reason. First, everyone agreed that the current AmigaOS would have to be enhanced, but no one knew how to do that or even agreed on what had to be enhanced or what was important. For example, some wanted memory protection, but they disliked its cost (a major rewrite of the available software and speed decrease).

In the end, the discussions ended in either flame wars or reiteration of the arguments.
Thus, even the AROS folks admit that Open Source does not allow to advance the Os in the Amiga community. Somebody will have reasons to complain about something, and then all development is blocked. It is *exactly that* which makes Open Source for AmigaOs in this "community" undesirable.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 23, 2020, 03:07:54 PM
The following quote from the AROS page is remarkable:

Quote
There have been discussions about writing an advanced OS with the features of the AmigaOS. This has been dropped for a good reason. First, everyone agreed that the current AmigaOS would have to be enhanced, but no one knew how to do that or even agreed on what had to be enhanced or what was important. For example, some wanted memory protection, but they disliked its cost (a major rewrite of the available software and speed decrease).

In the end, the discussions ended in either flame wars or reiteration of the arguments.
Thus, even the AROS folks admit that Open Source does not allow to advance the Os in the Amiga community.
That’s not at all what the that text says - the topic in that text was whether creating a new OS was worth while or not, and if so, how. AROS has advanced and is improving steadily, especially on 68k now, the question is more about how “real” AmigaOS can remain relevant in the future.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: mschulz on February 23, 2020, 03:20:23 PM
Thus, even the AROS folks admit that Open Source does not allow to advance the Os in the Amiga community. Somebody will have reasons to complain about something, and then all development is blocked. It is *exactly that* which makes Open Source for AmigaOs in this "community" undesirable.

It is great to provide a tiny quote from ancient FAQ in order to support a false statement. The very text you quoted was added to AROS as initial commit on Aug, 30th, 2002. Since then AROS has advanced in many many places, exceeding the targeted OS 3.1 practically everywhere. AROS was the first one working on x86, AROS was the first one working on ARM. AROS was the first one on 64 bit platform, providing 64-bit kernel and 64-bit software. AROS was the first one exceeding the 2GB memory limit. Finally, AROS was the first one showing that at least some degree of SMP is possible on AmigaOS-like system. Yet, despite all the advancements that were made, it can be compiled for x86_64 or m68k from the very same source tree and the m68k version (advancing every day) remains compatible with legacy m68k software as much as possible.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: SamuraiCrow on February 23, 2020, 03:36:42 PM
Thanks for setting the record straight, Dr. Schulz.  Personally, I'm sick of the litigation Hyperion has brought to the community and am glad there are alternatives.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 23, 2020, 04:23:12 PM
@SamuraiCrow:

Cloanto are the ones who have brought the litigation, so you should blame them instead.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 23, 2020, 04:36:21 PM
It is great to provide a tiny quote from ancient FAQ in order to support a false statement. The very text you quoted was added to AROS as initial commit on Aug, 30th, 2002. Since then AROS has advanced in many many places, exceeding the targeted OS 3.1 practically everywhere.
So to ask, why is there only 3.1 compatibility then? Porting source code to another platform is one thing (which you cannot do with the AmigaOs sources for obvious reasons, but any properly written C sources), but extending the API another one. So, why is there no API extension desired beyond that of 3.1 if the above statement from the FAQ is false?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 23, 2020, 05:02:38 PM
if you would look in the API definition (autodocs) you would see that Aros is somewhere between 3.1 and other NG platforms implementing additional
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 23, 2020, 05:18:56 PM
Cloanto are the ones who have brought the litigation, so you should blame them instead.
If someone tries to rob you and you resist, that doesn't make you the aggressor.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Tygre on February 23, 2020, 06:03:18 PM
@Tygre

See what ya started here mate? Only you have the power to stop it!   8)

Hi giZmo350!

I wish I could ;D

Cheers!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 23, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
If someone tries to rob you and you resist, that doesn't make you the aggressor.
Excuse for being confused, but who is robbing whom here? Let me recapitulate: Hyperion and a couple of folks start creating Os 4, while Amiga Inc. is trying its luck with AmigaDE, a "me, too" product of Java, and fails, quite unsurprisingly.

Then Amiga Inc. claims that AmigaOs 4 is their property, after Amiga DE fails. Hyperion goes to court, against AmigaInc, Amiga Inc. goes bankrupt, transfering ownership to Amigo (or what's is name), renaming this enterprise again to Amiga. Then Amiga and Hyperion settle, creating the settlement agreement for ongoing development of AmigaOs. Then, Amiga Inc. sells again its "property" to Cloanto. So I really wonder who is the thief in all this epic novel. If you want to point fingers, Amiga Inc. seems to be a much more suitable target for that, having two victims.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on February 23, 2020, 07:27:10 PM
Thanks Dr. M. Shutlz!

AROS is miles ahead (while not necessarily optimized) of OS 3.x and 4
Thor seems to think Owning OS 4.X licensing and marketing rights means you own 3.X … hence to court battle.

All Cloanto has done is keep Amiga alive by selling legal ROMs and paying for improvements to those ROMs and other system files over time.  Hence the 3.X OS designation...as in 3.10 because X=10 because it's an improvement over 3.9.

All Hyperion has done is keep the platform down in litigation and not pay developers.

I think someone has "battered abuser syndrome".
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 23, 2020, 08:40:11 PM
All Cloanto has done is keep Amiga alive by selling legal ROMs and paying for improvements to those ROMs and other system files over time.  Hence the 3.X OS designation...as in 3.10 because X=10 because it's an improvement over 3.9.
As in "very little". There's quite a bit more that improved in 3.1.4 compared to the Cloanto 3.X patch-up job. Concerning the "legality", I believe this is just want the process is about, so it is a bit premature to judge.

All Hyperion has done is keep the platform down in litigation and not pay developers.
For 4.x? I don't think anyone is keeping it down. Hyperion had another plan with the AmigaOs sources - the 4.X PPC thing. While you may disagree with this goal, and so do I, it does not mean "keeping the platform down" if the development target disagrees. As for "payment", I already said that I do not want anything in compensation, neither do I want anything from Cloanto. It is sometimes harder to earn money than to spend it. Please accept my choice, but I do not want to be in the position of having to justify of getting bribed by anyone, neither Cloanto nor Hyperion.

The choice for Hyperion was due to accessibility of sources, as by the settlement agreement, and physical accessibility to the sources and its subversion repository, and a built environment. Cloanto cannot offer anything like that.

I think someone has "battered abuser syndrome".
I believe you have expressed your sympathies, which is fine, but please allow me to speak for myself. You have split the world into "good and evil", where in reality, things are a bit more complicated than that.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 23, 2020, 09:48:03 PM
If someone tries to rob you and you resist, that doesn't make you the aggressor.
Excuse for being confused, but who is robbing whom here? Let me recapitulate: Hyperion and a couple of folks start creating Os 4, while Amiga Inc. is trying its luck with AmigaDE, a "me, too" product of Java, and fails, quite unsurprisingly.

Then Amiga Inc. claims that AmigaOs 4 is their property, after Amiga DE fails. Hyperion goes to court, against AmigaInc, Amiga Inc. goes bankrupt, transfering ownership to Amigo (or what's is name), renaming this enterprise again to Amiga. Then Amiga and Hyperion settle, creating the settlement agreement for ongoing development of AmigaOs. Then, Amiga Inc. sells again its "property" to Cloanto. So I really wonder who is the thief in all this epic novel. If you want to point fingers, Amiga Inc. seems to be a much more suitable target for that, having two victims.

Amigo (or what's is name)? You mean Garry Hare's KMOS. And it was renamed back to Amiga Inc., not Amiga.
btw-you skipped all events from settlement 2009 until the recent sale.

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: utri007 on February 23, 2020, 09:49:39 PM
Hyperion and a couple of folks start creating Os 4, while Amiga Inc. is trying its luck with AmigaDE, a "me, too" product of Java, and fails, quite unsurprisingly.

Then Amiga Inc. claims that AmigaOs 4 is their property, after Amiga DE fails. Hyperion goes to court, against AmigaInc, Amiga Inc. goes bankrupt, transfering ownership to Amigo (or what's is name), renaming this enterprise again to Amiga. Then Amiga and Hyperion settle, creating the settlement agreement for ongoing development of AmigaOs. Then, Amiga Inc. sells again its "property" to Cloanto. So I really wonder who is the thief in all this epic novel. If you want to point fingers, Amiga Inc. seems to be a much more suitable target for that, having two victims.

Nice short summary

Otherwise this thread is most boring nonsense, certainly not of what title says.
 
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: redfox on February 23, 2020, 11:11:23 PM
Oh yeah, the AInc(W)->ITEC->KMOS->MKOS->AInc(D) shell game...

---
redfox ::)


Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on February 23, 2020, 11:18:48 PM
All Cloanto has done is keep Amiga alive by selling legal ROMs and paying for improvements to those ROMs and other system files over time.  Hence the 3.X OS designation...as in 3.10 because X=10 because it's an improvement over 3.9.

That's nonsense. I have not seen anywhere where they claim it is supposed to be version three point ten. You can even check their page at https://www.amigaforever.com/kb/15-107 where no such claim is made. Also you can check the version numbers and dates of OS3.X components to see that they are just various random old versions thrown together.

Please tell me how their frankenstein mess of mismatched obsolete OS components is an improvement over 3.9. Anyone can take 3.9, remove half and overwrite half of what remains with with 3.5 versions, causing all kinds of compatibility issues for users and developers. That's more like vandalism than software development. And they certainly haven't improved any part of the OS themselves; what component are you claiming they have upgraded? They don't have source code for any AmigaOS version (including "their" AmigaOS 3.X) nor apparently any Amiga developers on their staff.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 24, 2020, 05:40:00 AM
Yes, Mr “let’s ship whatever new we find in the leaked source archive with BB3+4”, you are so much better yourself.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on February 24, 2020, 06:00:22 AM
Why call it 3.X then?  Why not 3.10?  Seems they were ahead of the naming convention game even before OS X from Apple...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 24, 2020, 09:00:52 AM
Why call it 3.X then?  Why not 3.10?  Seems they were ahead of the naming convention game even before OS X from Apple...

Because why not, because X does not indicate any number in particular, but rather signals "whatever".
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: ronniebeck on February 24, 2020, 09:32:18 AM
I read the latest court papers and I am wondering why anyone thought this was close to being settled.  Seems in the eyes of the courts it is anything but.

I like AROS.  I have been testing the vampire focused pre-made AROS image and it is a really nice environment to use and feels very feature rich.  A built-in TCP stack and a very tidy desktop.  In many respects, it feels like a step up from WB3.9.  I really like it.  As a user, I don't see why I couldn't use it for my Amiga.  I can understand it isn't everyone's cup of tea.  Heck there are those refuse to move past WB 1.3!

I suspect that some of the resistance to an Open Source Amiga OS might just simply be fear of the unknown.  It is really hard to substatiate any claim about what would happen because the Amiga past has been so closed source and there is little precident.  I am personally for Open Source.  Companies come and go.  Developers too.  And when they go, the knowledge and source code sometimes go with them.  Ope source could preserve that.  The Amiga is most alive in those who love using it and contributing to it.  Let it be kept alive openly by those who care for it the most.  And many of those people are writting pationately in this thread.

@Thomas Richter:  embrass the trolls! They are your biggest fans.  In the end, you love them as much as they love you.  Else you would have left this thread long ago.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 24, 2020, 10:07:17 AM
The "fear of open source" is now at the point that if it happens, certain somones would have to swallow so many camels and back-paddle so many harsh statements that they perhaps would find it impossible to participate or contribute.

Then there was this:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1375937&amp;postcount=71

Regarding AROS/68k...
Quote
The problem is that eventually after an greement is reached, or any party wins the legal case, I am pretty sure AmigaOS 68k will be open sourced anyway. Both Hyperion and Cloanto have publicly mentioned this in the past.

So for AROS on 68k, the countdown has already started even if no one is noticing it. The writing is on the wall.

So Gulliver here, who is an "official OS-3.2 team member" as far I can tell (I feel like putting quotation marks around all the words there) is of the opinion that AmigaOS will be open sourced anyways, regardless of who wins the court case. If this is true, great. But perhaps this was just another groundless jab of FUD at AROS.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Brian Hoskins on February 24, 2020, 10:58:34 AM
Quote from: ronniebeck
I am personally for Open Source.  Companies come and go.  Developers too.  And when they go, the knowledge and source code sometimes go with them.  Ope source could preserve that.

I am quite ambivalent about the prospect of open source for AmigaOS.

On the one hand, it is pretty difficult to argue against the points you make in favour of it.  If nothing else, the preservation factor alone is a huge positive.  Then there's the potential extra contribution that it could draw from software developers in the wider community.

I think we would need the open source project to be at least controlled by a trustworthy organisation for it to have any chance of success.  You still need decision makers, even on an open source project.

But here's where we run into a big problem, I think.  If history is anything to go by, it will prove very difficult to get groups of people in the community to agree on things.  The development roadmap for AmigaOS would be a pretty potent source of disagreement, I think.
If that happens, you'll end up with a separate group of individuals, unhappy with the direction/progress of the current open source AmigaOS stewards, breaking off and developing their own fork.

Before you know it, we're back to an 'us vs them' issue on the two forks.  Maybe an 'us vs them vs others' if there are even more forks.

You can see how this could end up quite messy quite quickly.

Do you agree with this concern?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 24, 2020, 11:22:19 AM
Companies come and go.  Developers too.
Yes, but "closed source" does not mean "companies". What I believe would be ideal would be some kind of "foundation" that becomes the formal owner of the code, and that defines in a board a direction, makes decisions, and gives out development jobs for developers while at the same time collects opinions by handing out RFCs. Companies sell the product, and by that finance the foundation, which could finance it developers. This should be IMHO a "non-profit" organization.

I believe this is an ideal compromize: The sources are kept together, decisions can be made openly and transparently, the thing can be funded.

Actually, this is not at all so different from the "ISO" or "IETF" model I know. It may be a bit slow (especially on the ISO side with all its overhead), but it is workable.
And when they go, the knowledge and source code sometimes go with them.  Ope source could preserve that.
Open Source does not preserve knowledge. Documentation does. Open source just means that the same errors are made over and over again. Of course documentation means that it needs someone to write it down, and as this is a job a typical developer does not like to do, it may require some form of compensation. The compensation could come from companies paying into such a foundation for the "licenses" to sell it.

Thus, I strongly believe that the whole thing requires more organization than an open source model could deliver.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 24, 2020, 12:35:32 PM
@ronniebeck

Quote
I read the latest court papers and I am wondering why anyone thought this was close to being settled.

Because this thread's beginning was based on the WDC chief judge Martinez's statements in the court documents of January 31, and not the documents you just read from February.
Quote
Business representatives of Hyperion, Cloanto, and C-A Acquisitions, Inc. have been
engaged in several days of intensive face-to-face settlement discussions in Europe geared toward a
global resolution of all claims, including the claims alleged in Case No. 19-cv-00683-RSM.
Hyperion, Cloanto, and C-A Acquisitions, Inc. are finalizing changes to a negotiated term sheet,
which they anticipate will soon be executed.
Source (https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770.85.0.pdf)

#6

Edit: changed "head" to "chief" for sake of accuracy in the judge's title
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 24, 2020, 02:13:27 PM
Do you agree with this concern?

No - and closed source does not prevent this either.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 24, 2020, 02:22:27 PM
@Thomas Richter

Let me remind you that the topic here is a hobby operating system, which primary function is to be pretty to look at and launch old games - what you describe is just utter overkill. FFS...

Holy crap what a flashback - open amiga, an amiga council... this did not work 20 years ago, and will certainly not work now.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 24, 2020, 02:45:02 PM
I would rather see AmigaOS take same approach as HaikuOS - https://www.haiku-os.org/about/ and I also see Claonto as a much better equivalent to Haiku Inc than Hyperion can ever hope to be.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: ronniebeck on February 24, 2020, 03:32:56 PM
Yes, but "closed source" does not mean "companies".
Correct.  It is a licensing standard.  Nothing to do with the organisation of developers be they employees of a company or freelancers working from home in their spare time.  Nothing to do with development models.  Or trolls.  Just the rights granted to users/developers/recipiants/etc of the software.

I believe this is an ideal compromize: The sources are kept together, decisions can be made openly and transparently, the thing can be funded.
Sources kept together and decisions made openly and transparently.  Music to my ears.  Sounds like you are warming to the idea of open source.
But no need to compromise!  You need not stop at the halfway point.  Make the full journey to openness!

Actually, this is not at all so different from the "ISO" or "IETF" model I know. It may be a bit slow (especially on the ISO side with all its overhead), but it is workable.
Where is Kolla?  This is where he writes something like: Yes, because that's exactly what the Amiga needs.  More slow development.

And when they go, the knowledge and source code sometimes go with them.  Ope source could preserve that.
Open Source does not preserve knowledge. Documentation does.
Correct.  Because Open Source is a licensing standard.  You need to write documentation independently of your License and development model.  A task not at all prevented by Open (or closed) Source.
But the act of open sourcing software allows people to legally keep copies of the software source code AND documentation.  Thus preserving it!  And a good programmer keeps good comments with their code to allow others to pickup where they left off.  Again, not at all something hindered by Open (or closed) Source.  Just simple good developer discipline.

Thus, I strongly believe that the whole thing requires more organization than an open source model could deliver.
Thus, I strongly believe that the whole thing is about organisation (and possibly control) and not about open source.

Nothing you have said is prevented by open source.  In fact, you sound quite open yourself in many respects.  Keep it up!  It gives me hope.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Brian Hoskins on February 24, 2020, 03:49:41 PM
I would rather see AmigaOS take same approach as HaikuOS - https://www.haiku-os.org/about/ and I also see Claonto as a much better equivalent to Haiku Inc than Hyperion can ever hope to be.

From their website:
Quote
The project consists of a single team writing everything from the kernel, drivers, userland services, tool kit, and graphics stack to the included desktop applications and preflets.

See, this is exactly what I think wouldn't happen if AmigaOS were simply made open-source.  We'd end up with a bunch of different 'teams' all thinking they know best and taking the OS in their own directions in multiple forks.

Thomas' suggestion of the foundation approaches a good compromise, I think.  You would need to have some entity in charge of the AmigaOS development otherwise chaos would ensue.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 24, 2020, 04:01:40 PM
you guys completely unerestimates how much work it to create a own forke. Even on aros there are no forkes because it is too much work (even if someone is motivated)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 24, 2020, 04:33:57 PM
Let me remind you that the topic here is a hobby operating system, which primary function is to be pretty to look at and launch old games - what you describe is just utter overkill. FFS...

Holy crap what a flashback - open amiga, an amiga council... this did not work 20 years ago, and will certainly not work now.
You are contradicting yourself. At one point, you blame me for modifying the shell syntax (for reasons, I explained them). At the other hand, you like to invite everybody to play with the sources as they like. How likely, do you think, is it then that somebody modifies the sources in another way you do not like? What happens then?

Folks, this thing *requires* some sort of coordination, and you do not get that by "free forking for everyone", and "a troll attack every day".
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 24, 2020, 04:35:20 PM
you guys completely unerestimates how much work it to create a own forke. Even on aros there are no forkes because it is too much work (even if someone is motivated)
I don't know how AROS is managed, but AmigaOs has - in the meantime - a pretty workable build infrastructure that can be executed on Linux.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 24, 2020, 04:45:02 PM
yes but someone skilled with both interest and time has to make commits
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 24, 2020, 05:16:02 PM
I don't know how AROS is managed, but AmigaOs has - in the meantime - a pretty workable build infrastructure that can be executed on Linux.

you mean a build system? yes. aros has this. it can be executed in linux. it can be executed on darwin as far as i gather from commits and developers (but im personally not using it). its has been used under windows apparently for mingw hosted, but i think it isnt maintained right now. and it has also been possible to a degree to build aros natively on aros (target platform), but this also is not properly maintained right now. however it should be possible to build smaller apps natively. the choice of gnu tools, etc. are building from contributions and one can run them on aros.

as compiler there is a choice of gcc version varying currently from 6.5-0 to beta 10. the previous have been obsoleted. on darwin apparently also clang/llvm is being used.
the usage and handling of aros build system is pretty easy on any linux i came across. its just configure, followed by target and demanded flags and then make. you can also clean, build or rebuilt particular modules. such as specific programs/binaries. yes it has some quirk here and there, but altogether is pretty versatile.

when building m68k as example you can set up the build dir as a drive in fs-use for testing and off you go. when testing ppc you may want to choose the built bootiso as your boot drive in qemu. testing linux hosted i396/x86_64 is straight forward as it gets.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 24, 2020, 06:24:23 PM
btw. no need to guess. the (current) source is in the open and everybody can download or browse it and check for themselves:
https://github.com/aros-development-team
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: giZmo350 on February 25, 2020, 01:09:58 AM
I see ya'll took the day off!  ;D
.......or, "Were bunkin off!"   :o

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/43/43d486d06171ce396a0f3c81f642573236fbfdce9b88b0fea9be6358234a43df.jpg)


Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Tygre on February 25, 2020, 02:14:24 AM
Hi all!

The discussion is now completely off-topic... Could moderators create a thread dedicated to open-sourcing (or not) AmigaOS and move there most of the posts in this thread, starting with the post #17 (http://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=74543.msg847932#msg847932)?

On the topic of open-source, this article from Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/02/how-to-choose-an-open-source-license/) summarises very well the different open-source licenses. This is a must-read for anyone who wants to contribute to this thread! ;D

Regarding the need to keep AmigaOS closed source, two thoughts:

With an open-source license (copyleft (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/02/how-to-choose-an-open-source-license/)), beneficial changes would/could be integrated back into the "main" repo., thus benefitting everyone, without creating too much "noise". 8)

Are there any other reasons for which the code should not be open-souce? (Not talking about legalese here, I'm talking about serious ;) management, community, and-or technical issues.)

Cheers!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 25, 2020, 03:33:50 AM
beneficial changes would/could be integrated back into the "main" repo.

thats probably the very philosophy behind forks and pull requests on github, right?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 25, 2020, 03:36:25 AM
btw. judging by commits tonight looks like our llvm toolchain improves.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Tygre on February 25, 2020, 04:08:38 AM
beneficial changes would/could be integrated back into the "main" repo.

thats probably the very philosophy behind forks and pull requests on github, right?

My thoughts exactly! :)

Cheers!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: bison on February 25, 2020, 04:09:17 AM
you guys completely unerestimates how much work it to create a own forke. Even on aros there are no forkes because it is too much work (even if someone is motivated)
This is a good point.  Not only is it a lot of work to create a fork, but it's a lot of work maintaining it, trying to back-port changes to keep it in sync with the trunk.

The Fear of Forks is overblown.  No one creates one unless they have a good reason to.  And I'm not really sure what a "silly fork' is -- it sounds like a Monty Python sketch to me. ;)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: wawrzon on February 25, 2020, 04:29:40 AM
tbh. there are forks of aros, an example is abi v0, a base for current x86 distri, which is being maintained, sort of in a separate repo, while most of work is done on abi v1, also arix and probably anubis were kind of forks. and there is sure few more, but they dont seem to gain much attention. also we provide a kind of slightly modified fork of the main repo, for stuff that doesnt belong there.

edit: and actually almost anyone contributing to aros hosts himself a fork of main repo, containing his own changes and experiments..
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 25, 2020, 09:11:31 AM
at the end most of the forks were dead soon after being created...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 25, 2020, 09:58:57 AM
You are contradicting yourself. At one point, you blame me for modifying the shell syntax (for reasons, I explained them).

I have not blamed you for syntax changes (what syntax changes?), I blamed you for introducing new features, apparently without much thorough testing, shipping this immature and buggy version of the shell,  _in kickstart roms_.

Quote
At the other hand, you like to invite everybody to play with the sources as they like. How likely, do you think, is it then that somebody modifies the sources in another way you do not like? What happens then?

What happens then is that code is tested "in the wild" thoroughly for quite some time before ending up on kickstart rom chips.
Another thing that happens is that customers will not have to wait an unknown number of months for updates and bugfixes.

Quote
Folks, this thing *requires* some sort of coordination, and you do not get that by "free forking for everyone", and "a troll attack every day".

This "free forking for everyone" FUD is nonsense, and giving trolls a committee does not help much.
.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on February 25, 2020, 10:12:18 AM
Most "forks" on github etc are not about forking projects, but more about having a source for pull requests to the main repo.

Also people keep "forks" simply as backup in case the main repo vanishes.

(I keep my own "forks" of quite a few projects just for simple modifications, mostly related to meta-data (tagging, packaging etc) and not so much because of actual code changes, these "forks" automatically pull from upstream regularly, and packages are built via gitlab-ci when I tag something for production ready.)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: mschulz on February 25, 2020, 12:03:47 PM
Quote
Most "forks" on github etc are not about forking projects, but more about having a source for pull requests to the main repo.

This is exactly how we do it. I have my own AROS for from main repository. There, I can work on one or more several things at once, keeping each of them in separate branch. Once such branch is ready to be merged (e.g. a feature is complete, bugs fixed or whatever) I can create a pull request to the main AROS repository. Alternatively, I can create a pull request to any other for of the main repository if someone else wants to have it/test it.

Such workflow is very helpful and allows one to keep things separated as long as necessary.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Plaz on February 27, 2020, 12:57:34 PM
Once such branch is ready to be merged (e.g. a feature is complete, bugs fixed or whatever) I can create a pull request to the main

I use a similar work flow. I work on my own "deadend" forks and branches to both learn the code base better and then contribute back to the main supported branch. My projects are not opensource either and come with their own license, but the code is available to work with.

Plaz
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Steino on February 28, 2020, 05:59:17 AM
@cgutjahr
Cloanto does not offer anything at all. They have never approached us with any sort of plan or proposal.

Never approached? In one of the recent livestreams Mike was saying how he and developers met at Amiga 30 to discuss Amiga Classic. What do you know about that meeting, and about what followed?

It's Hyperion who apparently hijacked that.

Though, if by "us" you are referring to those who are financing Hyperion's various lawsuits against Amiga, Amino, Itec and Cloanto, I might forgive you for taking sides.  ;)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Steino on February 28, 2020, 06:10:59 AM
Cloanto seems to believe that it is a good idea that "the community" drives "development", they take a snapshot from time to time, put a nice box and a binder around it and sell the result.
...
Cloanto, however, is either acting foolish, or is trying to fool you. If they really want to go where they claim, they are destroying their product and their market, just for the attempt at looking nice.

Sell? Market? How do you know? What if Cloanto is not doing it for money? That would disrupt your whole pile of assumptions, wouldn't it?

Just look at the 2019 lawsuit (the one Hyperion won't even respond to), the Amiga/Cloanto parties didn't ask for money (damages), they just asked that the settlement agreement be clarified, and that Hyperion respect it.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Rotzloeffel on February 28, 2020, 06:57:46 AM

In one of the recent livestreams Mike was saying how he and developers met at Amiga 30 to discuss Amiga Classic.

And These "Developers" are? Most of the Rights for "new" System-Tools in 3.9 felt back to the original developers… what would your so called developers develop without any Sources ??

Mike was talking foo… look at 3.x! A bunch of dirty patches which giving more problems to users than benefit......
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 28, 2020, 07:03:26 AM
Sell? Market? How do you know?
Because I know the sales numbers of 3.1.4, and yes, there is some money in it. Not big one, but more than nothing.

What if Cloanto is not doing it for money?
Exccuse me, are you a bit naive? Why would anyone pay lawers and go to court and sue its competitor in multiple cases if this anyone does not assume to get his money back, at some point? If Cloanto isn't for money, why not just let Hyperion sell whatever they want to sell, and be good with it? As there is no business in your assumption, it couldn't harm Cloanto.

Cloanto sees its market damaged, that's why. Plain and simple, because they cannot come up with a competative product, they go to court.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 28, 2020, 10:41:56 AM
you are very uniquesided... despite claiming not to have interests or get money...

it is not only about having not a cpmpetitive product, Hyperion also sold license for kickstarts to iComp

from Cloantos business view they are doing what Hyperion is not allowed to, they were only allowed to develop 4.X based on 3.X sources

Hyperion obviously interprets this very differently and that is the reason for the lawsuit

who is right from a legal point will be decided before court. You often sound like a speechman and clerk from hyperion

BTW I cannot judge too who is right there (regarding the contract)

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 28, 2020, 10:57:23 AM
you are very uniquesided... despite claiming not to have interests or get money...
Please read again: This is Cloanto who wants to earn money, and Hyperion that wants to earn money. I am not Hyperion, and I don't earn money with their products, and I don't even care about it. Don't confuse me with Hyperion. Why do you believe that if I don't want to earn money, Hyperion doesn't either? I'm not claiming that at all.

it is not only about having not a cpmpetitive product, Hyperion also sold license for kickstarts to iComp
That's not the accusal, though. If Cloanto wanted to stop Hyperion selling 1.3 - IMHO correctly so - why not bringing this particular case - namely on 1.3 - to court?

from Cloantos business view they are doing what Hyperion is not allowed to, they were only allowed to develop 4.X based on 3.X sources
Hyperion obviously interprets this very differently and that is the reason for the lawsuit
Well, yes, but if Cloanto isn't bringing this to court to maximize their income, why would they? Does anyone really believe they run a charity?

You often sound like a speechman and clerk from hyperion
And the O.P. like one for Cloanto. These are competing enterprises. Believing that Cloanto is doing this "to be nice to anyone" is just naive. They want to protect their market and their products, obviously.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 28, 2020, 10:59:28 AM
I do not think Cloanto is for charity

Both obviously want to earn from the amiga market (what some call classic) and interpret a contract to their favor

Business against business
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 28, 2020, 11:28:20 AM
I do not think Cloanto is for charity

Both obviously want to earn from the amiga market (what some call classic) and interpret a contract to their favor

Business against business
Absolutely, what else? Never stated or believed anything else.

And this claim:
Quote
What if Cloanto is not doing it for money?
is just naive.

Of course they are doing it for money. This is not about "liberation of AmigaOs" or whatever someone may consider in their dreams. That's just a story Cloanto sells, for the same reason as Hyperion: Hoping to attract developers to jump on their bandwagon, and do the work for them. Just like Hyperion, just a different development model. Fine enough, just understand what is going on here, and I'm not accusing them for this particular business model.

Just predending to do something else, or believing "they are not doing it for money" is naive. That is the wrong part. The problem Cloanto has now: The sources are (physically, maybe not legally) under control of Hyperion, and that is a problem they try to solve with this lawsuit. Nothing else.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 28, 2020, 01:26:02 PM
@Thomas Richter

Quote
That's not the accusal, though. If Cloanto wanted to stop Hyperion selling 1.3 - IMHO correctly so - why not bringing this particular case - namely on 1.3 - to court?

From statement of the original case:
Quote
1. This is an action for copyright infringement, trademark infringement, unfair
competition, breach of contract, and declaratory and injunctive relief under the United States
Copyright Act of 1976, as amended, 17 U.S.C. § 101, et seq., the Lanham Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1119
and § 1125(a), based inter alia on Defendant’s unlawful appropriation, exploitation, and
commercial distribution and use of Plaintiff’s AMIGA Kickstart ROM, Version 1.3 computer
code (hereinafter “Kickstart 1.3”),

Just curious. Who told you this was never a part of the lawsuits?

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on February 28, 2020, 02:06:20 PM
@Thomas Richter
Just curious. Who told you this was never a part of the lawsuits?
I haven't said that it isn't *part* of the lawsuit, but it is not what the lawsuit is all about. Besides, there is not "the" lawsuit, but multiple, over trademarks, for example, is another one.
Cloanto could also have made a case just out of this, and accept the exclusive development license on the Hyperion side. They didn't do that.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on February 28, 2020, 02:18:31 PM
@Thomas Richter
Just curious. Who told you this was never a part of the lawsuits?
I haven't said that it isn't *part* of the lawsuit, but it is not what the lawsuit is all about. Besides, there is not "the" lawsuit, but multiple, over trademarks, for example, is another one.
Cloanto could also have made a case just out of this, and accept the exclusive development license on the Hyperion side. They didn't do that.

Well what you quoted from me says "lawsuits" (plural), so I have no clue why you decided to respond by indicating I said something other than what I said ("the" lawsuit).
I'm obviously well aware of the trademark lawsuit, but that case is "stayed" pending resolution of the contract lawsuit.

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on February 28, 2020, 03:35:11 PM
Let me recapitulate:
Please don't.

Quote
Then Amiga Inc. claims that AmigaOs 4 is their property, after Amiga DE fails.
They simply executed the buy back clause that Ben Hermans himself had written into the 2001 contract. For 25,000 USD, they'd get the rights to OS4. End of story.

But Ben claimed he wasn't paid in full, so he didn't hand over OS4 - that's the reason he got sued. During the case, it turned out that Amiga had paid the 25000 USD, plus some older debts for AmigaDE related work Hyperion had done - but somehow messed up and transferred 500 USD (IIRC) less than the total they owed Hyperion.

Ben Hermans destroyed both OS4 and the company he was supposed to run - for the chance to steal the Amiga IP. And in the end, he got to keep the 25000 USD and OS4 - after a 2.5 year long court battle, because Amiga had missed a 500 USD payment.

Quote
Hyperion goes to court
Hyperion didn't go to court, they waited until the were sued.

Quote
Amiga Inc. goes bankrupt, transfering ownership to Amigo (or what's is name), renaming this enterprise again to Amiga.
That happened way before the court case, and it happened with Hyperion's consent.

Quote
Then, Amiga Inc. sells again its "property" to Cloanto. So I really wonder who is the thief in all this epic novel. If you want to point fingers, Amiga Inc. seems to be a much more suitable target for that, having two victims.
Said the guy who's acknowledging Hyperion are pirating 1.3 yet he's still financing their current lawsuit. Not sure I'd trust your judgement on issues like that. And kudos for bringing up Cloanto again.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Brian Hoskins on February 28, 2020, 03:45:28 PM
Of course they are doing it for money. This is not about "liberation of AmigaOs" or whatever someone may consider in their dreams. That's just a story Cloanto sells, for the same reason as Hyperion: Hoping to attract developers to jump on their bandwagon, and do the work for them.

Of course Cloanto is in the business of making money - as are the majority of us, to larger or lesser extents.  Ultimately, money is the medium through which we house, feed and better the position of our families (and/or ourselves).
Most of us have to continually make money in order for the show to go on.  Other, more fortunate people, eventually have enough money that they can afford to fund their lifestyle and interests without the requirement to earn any more.

Some people (like myself, actually) have a very blurred line between what is considered working because they have to, and what is considered working because their job is satisfying an interest. 
Unless you're in the position where you literally don't need to make any more money, then having a nice blurred line like this is about as good a compromise as you're going to get.

So when you say Cloanto is in this for the money, I'd agree.  When you say it isn't about liberation of AmigaOS or other such fanciful things, I don't think I can necessarily agree because those goals are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

It's possible, is it not, that Mike Battilana is a core AMIGA fan first, and a money earner second.  Running Cloanto is the means by which he keeps his family happy, and also sustains his very expensive interest in the betterment of the AMIGA platform.  Having his cake and eating it, so to speak.

Now, I've never met Mike Battilana so I am not claiming this is the case for him.  But I am offering to you that this is a possibility.  Indeed, not so outrageous a possibility given that most software (or hardware) development companies could almost certainly make more money outside of AMIGA circles these days.

So I guess I take a less cynical view on this point.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Kremlar on March 01, 2020, 02:10:16 AM
Sell? Market? How do you know?
Because I know the sales numbers of 3.1.4, and yes, there is some money in it. Not big one, but more than nothing.

What if Cloanto is not doing it for money?
Exccuse me, are you a bit naive? Why would anyone pay lawers and go to court and sue its competitor in multiple cases if this anyone does not assume to get his money back, at some point? If Cloanto isn't for money, why not just let Hyperion sell whatever they want to sell, and be good with it? As there is no business in your assumption, it couldn't harm Cloanto.

Cloanto sees its market damaged, that's why. Plain and simple, because they cannot come up with a competative product, they go to court.

Is it naive to believe you worked on 3.1.4 for "free" as well?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 01, 2020, 06:44:59 AM
Is it naive to believe you worked on 3.1.4 for "free" as well?
What do you want to imply? That I'm lying? Thank you so much. It's probably not enough having worked on 3.1.4 without payment (not alone, of course), and having provided freeware over the last 20 years or so, also without payment. What else do you need? Do I need to open up my bank account to prove it? Which type of conspiracy theory comes next?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kamelito on March 01, 2020, 09:42:51 AM
@Thomas Richter
Honestly I don’t understand why you waste your precious time with those guys.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: BozzerBigD on March 01, 2020, 10:18:17 AM
@Thomas Richter

Is it for the love of the purity of the code? Doesn't Cypher talk about that in The Matrix? When you start wholeheartedly supporting shady lawyers masquerading as a software developer for free your in the realms of politically championing a cause rather than traditional employment! While I admire the coding skills I think the whole Hyperion business model is a mess! Do they give you a bottle if wine at Christmas or just free legal representation?  ;D
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 01, 2020, 11:32:11 AM
Is it for the love of the purity of the code?
There is nothing "pure" in the AmigaOs code, but call it "the hope for improving the situation", and "the desire to get all the bugs out". I had long enough an always crashing A2000, and I always wondered why. On the road of finding the issue, lots of code was created, the COP debugger for one thing. After all, it turned out to be a hardware issue. What this is all about is to lower the frustration at user side when software crashes, avoid the need for incompetent hacks and patches, and provide something that is robust and stable, worth calling an Os.

When you start wholeheartedly supporting shady lawyers masquerading as a software developer for free your in the realms of politically championing a cause rather than traditional employment!
I already have traditional employment, so I have an income, and thanks, not an income from Hyperion. Too risky.

While I admire the coding skills I think the whole Hyperion business model is a mess!
The business model is as clear as it can be. Sell software for money. That's simple enough, but the whole implementation of this model is a mess. Nobody there knows how to run a business, that's for sure.

Do they give you a bottle if wine at Christmas or just free legal representation?  ;D
I asked for nothing, and I don't want presents from them.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Senex on March 01, 2020, 11:53:22 AM
Quote
What do you want to imply?

What I thought he wanted to imply is that you are not dependent on an income from your Amiga work, since you're earning your money by another job. Thus the same could apply to Mike.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Brian Hoskins on March 01, 2020, 12:24:38 PM
Is it naive to believe you worked on 3.1.4 for "free" as well?
What do you want to imply? That I'm lying? Thank you so much.

@Kremlar: In harmless forum interactions with people why not take them at face value, unless you have a good reason not to?

Thomas' claim to have worked for free - published numerous times on a public forum - would be easily (and I imagine quickly) falsified by an employer if it were a lie.  Given that there has been no such rebuttal, it seems very unlikely that Thomas is not telling the truth in this matter.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on March 01, 2020, 02:19:23 PM
Quote
What do you want to imply?

What I thought he wanted to imply is that you are not dependent on an income from your Amiga work, since you're earning your money by another job. Thus the same could apply to Mike.

They are both totally different categories of people. Mike does not develop Amiga software right now.
He lives in part by licensing Commodore stuff. He is charging money for Amiga Forever and licensing roms.
The only development he does is on the emulation wrapper he provides, and even that, I believe is outsourced.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Senex on March 01, 2020, 02:30:32 PM
Quote
Mike does not develop Amiga software right now.

And? Trevor himself doesn't program any software either. The comparison was that someone can indeed "waste" spare time and/or money for some hobby when his real job earns him enough money to do so. And as far as I know Mike did not state yet he does his C-A Acquisition endeavor for a living.

Please note: I don't claim the opposite either. I just considered it funny to totally rule out Mike could do this out of enthusiasm only while there's Trevor at the same time going around for several years now spending his money here and there.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on March 02, 2020, 05:27:40 PM
Quote
Mike does not develop Amiga software right now.

And? Trevor himself doesn't program any software either. The comparison was that someone can indeed "waste" spare time and/or money for some hobby when his real job earns him enough money to do so. And as far as I know Mike did not state yet he does his C-A Acquisition endeavor for a living.

Please note: I don't claim the opposite either. I just considered it funny to totally rule out Mike could do this out of enthusiasm only while there's Trevor at the same time going around for several years now spending his money here and there.

I'm seeing a slight difference in the content of the last 2 documents from the court and a new document not mentioned yet by the court, which appeared a few days ago.
I'll repost the old links and the new one for you to compare:

the order to show cause ( the contract case) (https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770.88.0.pdf)

Quote
Plaintiffs request the Court order the parties to participate in alternative dispute
resolution. Dkt. #86 at 6. The Court does not believe that such is required at this point, as the
parties have recently participated in settlement discussions and can continue to do so
voluntarily.

the order staying the trademark case (https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.272892/gov.uscourts.wawd.272892.26.0.pdf)

Quote
the Court hereby finds and
ORDERS that this matter is STAYED until Case No. 18-cv-381-RSM is resolved or until otherwise ordered by this Court. Upon the resolution of Case No. 18-cv-381-RSM, Plaintiffs are to file a status report in this case within fourteen (14) days.

Both of these sound somewhat vague as to the next court ordered deadline, no?

Yet the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board says:
 
Quote
The parties are allowed until thirty days from the date of this order in which to
inform the Board of the status of the civil action which occasioned the suspension of
this proceeding. If no response to this order is received from either party, the Board
will resume proceedings and reset dates, as appropriate.

Source 4 days ago (http://tsdr.uspto.gov/caseviewer/pdf?caseId=87287078&docIndex=0&searchprefix=sn#docIndex=0)

Giving a due date of 30 days for response sure sounds different than "until is resolved" imo.

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 02, 2020, 06:54:51 PM
#6

How dare you go on topic!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Kremlar on March 03, 2020, 03:48:04 AM
Is it naive to believe you worked on 3.1.4 for "free" as well?
What do you want to imply? That I'm lying? Thank you so much. It's probably not enough having worked on 3.1.4 without payment (not alone, of course), and having provided freeware over the last 20 years or so, also without payment. What else do you need? Do I need to open up my bank account to prove it? Which type of conspiracy theory comes next?

I'm implying that perhaps you should not assume primary motivation.  I don't know Mike Battalina well, but I did speak with him some at a convention a couple years back.  His motivation was clear to me, and it was not money.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on March 03, 2020, 08:45:19 AM
Is it naive to believe you worked on 3.1.4 for "free" as well?
What do you want to imply? That I'm lying? Thank you so much. It's probably not enough having worked on 3.1.4 without payment (not alone, of course), and having provided freeware over the last 20 years or so, also without payment. What else do you need? Do I need to open up my bank account to prove it? Which type of conspiracy theory comes next?

I'm implying that perhaps you should not assume primary motivation.  I don't know Mike Battalina well, but I did speak with him some at a convention a couple years back.  His motivation was clear to me, and it was not money.

Companies are made to make money. Sweet talk does not change that.

He had his company focused on making money licensing Commodore's IP since even before Hyperion ever existed.

And he is still selling the same repackaged stuff to this very day, instead of giving it away for free.

Talk is cheap.

His motivation is to make money and you are just another one that felt into his PR stunt.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on March 03, 2020, 09:37:51 AM
he is investing money

he bought AmigaInc. He now pays for the lawsuit. So it is fair to assume that Cloanto has some idea how to earn money when won. How exactly this will be and what will be free of charge (open source) we will see

I mean that not negative, it is fair for a company to earn money even in a small market like we current have
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on March 03, 2020, 09:39:13 AM
and the business model of Hyperion is anyhow better?

It relies on people working for free giving them products they can sell expensive

The perfect business model  ;)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 03, 2020, 12:36:47 PM
and the business model of Hyperion is anyhow better?
Heck, no. It's exactly the same model, namely...

It relies on people working for free giving them products they can sell expensive
You look left, you look right, it is all the same. Not that I'm so much against this model, no, be my guest. Just don't waste my time, and my work on lawsuits, that's it. If it would be my decision, here, take AmigaOs, both of you sell it, get over it.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 03, 2020, 04:52:11 PM
Which developers do Cloanto owe salaries to?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 03, 2020, 04:53:27 PM
Which developers are not getting paid from Cloanto’s products?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 03, 2020, 06:17:03 PM
If Thomas had used Cloanto as a publisher of 3.1.4 instead of Hyperion, he
1) would have got paid
2) the 'lawuit(s)' would only be about distributing 1.3
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on March 03, 2020, 07:38:03 PM
@Louis Dias:

How could that possibly work? Cloanto don't have the source code, nor any legal right to develop new versions of AmigaOS.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 03, 2020, 07:51:00 PM
@Minuous

OS3.1.4 is “developed under license”, and who is the licenser at this point?

Licenses can be terminated.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on March 03, 2020, 08:18:35 PM
But the licence has not been withdrawn, so obviously OS3.1.4 could not have been done as a Cloanto project.

Quote
Mike does not develop Amiga software right now.
He lives in part by licensing Commodore stuff. He is charging money for Amiga Forever and licensing roms.
The only development he does is on the emulation wrapper he provides, and even that, I believe is outsourced.

It turns out that even the emulation wrapper stuff was not actually paid for by Cloanto, but by Trevor Dickinson. https://www.exec.pl/article.jsp?nid=189&Amiga_present_and_future:_interview_with_Trevor_Dickinson
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 03, 2020, 09:08:31 PM
Why would I need original source code to replace a buggy file?
As long as the header is available, I could re-implement the library without original sources if I was familiar enough with it's functionality...
Reverse-engineering is a thing.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on March 03, 2020, 09:09:07 PM
you guys seem still want to proof that your side is good side and the other the bad side...

Both parties certainly have a idea how they want to earn money

Hyperion obviously by finding people working for zero and nothing offering them products on the silver blade they can sell expensive

The perfect trader principe, buy cheap sell expensive or in this case get something for free and sell expensive. Perfect business as long there are people willing to work for nothing. It more sounds like a trader than a tech company. Hardly a concept with future.

Cloanto otherwise has not much told about the way they want to make money if they win. They own kickststarts and amiga trademark then so perhaps they earn money by licensing both. But that is speculation. In any case... BOTH are commercial entities and the lawsuit is about money. So stop this discussion who are the good and who are the bad guys. It is simply nonsense
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 03, 2020, 10:40:11 PM
The lawsuits are about getting rid of Hyperion once and for all, and just about everyone are in on it.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 04, 2020, 09:45:01 PM
Quote
The lawsuits are about getting rid of Hyperion once and for all, and just about everyone are in on it.
Please explain.
To me, it's about the rightful control of 3.X.  Cloanto is willing to honor Hyperion's OS4 rights ... just no one gives a crap about PPC...which is why they started publishing 3.x stuff..which is not wrong - however - calling it their own was wrong.  Including 1.3 was also wrong.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 04, 2020, 09:47:56 PM
A-EON wants to take over OS4 and Cloanto wants to take over OS3 - Hyperion is in the way.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on March 04, 2020, 10:44:02 PM
A-EON wants to take over OS4 and Cloanto wants to take over OS3 - Hyperion is in the way.

You got it all wrong as usual:

Cloanto wants to get both AmigaOS3 and AmigaOS4.

A-EON and Hyperion have been already cooperating for some time.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2020, 06:16:19 AM
@Gulliver
You live under a rock or something? The “cooperation” between AEON and Hyperion went sour years ago, Trevor was furious with Hermans and stated something to the effect of “this is now personal”. As pointed out by your fellow despoiler Minuous, Trevor has also been supporting Cloanto financially, to pay developers and who knows what else (can you think of anything??)

The only entity somewhat supporting Hyperion at this point is iComp, a licensee who is slowly realizing that he’s been duped, that his investment was made on false premises and his licenses are in limbo.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on March 05, 2020, 07:04:12 AM
@Gulliver
You live under a rock or something? The “cooperation” between AEON and Hyperion went sour years ago, Trevor was furious with Hermans and stated something to the effect of “this is now personal”. As pointed out by your fellow despoiler Minuous, Trevor has also been supporting Cloanto financially, to pay developers and who knows what else (can you think of anything??)

The only entity somewhat supporting Hyperion at this point is iComp, a licensee who is slowly realizing that he’s been duped, that his investment was made on false premises and his licenses are in limbo.

I don't live under a rock, in fact, I am in a position that can see things happening that others try to guess. And I am not the only one.
So you can keep guessing all you want, but that does not make it a fact.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on March 05, 2020, 08:38:42 AM
As pointed out by your fellow despoiler Minuous, Trevor has also been supporting Cloanto financially

That was in 2007, according to the linked article, so presumably it was not done as some kind of anti-Hyperion measure.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2020, 08:43:22 AM
Others have been in your position many times before, this is not guesswork, this is simple observations.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2020, 09:01:30 AM
That was in 2007, according to the linked article, so presumably it was not done as some kind of anti-Hyperion measure.
So you like to downplay your own argument now?

Trevor has said many times in interviews that he works towards seeing “all Amiga under one roof” - who does he has best relations with, Cloanto or Hyperion? He has written pages about his appreciation for WinUAE, AmigaForever, AmigaKX (or whatever it was called), AmiKit, his own ALICE etc. Is he equally enthusiastic when he talks about Hyperion and the guy who he cofounded “old” A-EON with?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on March 05, 2020, 11:32:33 AM
@kolla:

My point was that Cloanto have not put their money into development of anything, not even Amiga Forever.

I don't know what other point you thought I was trying to make.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on March 05, 2020, 11:45:29 AM
and what invests Hyperion?

If you think so there is not much difference
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 05, 2020, 12:54:37 PM
and what invests Hyperion?

The latest I know of was Reaction.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on March 05, 2020, 01:20:31 PM
yes

what else?

that was all I heared in years
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on March 05, 2020, 02:05:04 PM
My point was that Cloanto have not put their money into development of anything, not even Amiga Forever.
The link you provided does not actually show that. In fact, it implies the opposite: If Battilana is paying somebody for cataloging games and applications (which is what Trevor's money was used for), it's safe to assume he's also paying people for programming work.

But even if your claim was true - "not paying your developers and using the money for lawsuits" is the actual business model you and Thomas are actively supporting, so I don't see why you would get all worked up over it.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on March 05, 2020, 02:13:17 PM
I don't live under a rock, in fact, I am in a position that can see things happening that others try to guess. And I am not the only one.
So you can keep guessing all you want, but that does not make it a fact.
Jesus Christ, are you new to this scene? This is 2020 and you're saying in public, with a straight face, "Ben tells me things, so there!".

Trevor is now publicly accusing Ben Hermans of stealing half a million bucks from him, and forging bank documents to hide it. And Gulliver's walking around telling people "A-EON and Hyperion have been cooperating for some time". *facepalm*

I was wondering who Ben would pick as the next Solie. Looks like he has so many applications, he's probably going to run a competition. Hey, maybe you should buy some Hyperion shares? That's going to improve your chances a lot, you know.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 05, 2020, 02:15:18 PM
But even if your claim was true - "not paying your developers and using the money for lawsuits" is the actual business model you and Thomas are actively supporting, so I don't why you would get all worked up over it.
...and the business model Cloanto has chosen to follow, now that the wind had turned. Strange, isn't it? If Hypeiron goes to court, it's the"bad guys wasting developer money". If Cloanto goes to court, it's "defeating the evil empire".

I'm sorry, I don't get you. It's a waste on either side, and it is actually triggered by Cloanto this time that my work is wasted. Thank you so much for that.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on March 05, 2020, 02:31:15 PM
in a perfect world Hyperion and Cloanto would have negotiated in the background and agreed to a kind of contract but obviously the differences are too big. And you are now understandable not happy that your work comes in this legal mess. But it is how it is. Hopefully the current situation changes in future. If the results will be like you want them has to be seen.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 05, 2020, 02:56:40 PM
my work is wasted. Thank you so much for that.
I'm not sure why you didn't just package it as a patch for 3.1...it was the whole "here's the entire OS 'we' own it" thing that caused the uproar.  There were Boing Bags for 3.5 and 3.9 ... somehow I doubt you need a license to release those.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 05, 2020, 03:17:40 PM
... somehow I doubt you need a license to release those.
You doubt wrong. It is a derived work, and as such thus requires agreement with the copyright holder. The only reason why I could release patches to the Shell and Layers was due to permission. Well, leave alone such details as "getting access to the sources".
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on March 05, 2020, 03:27:19 PM
It's a waste on either side, and it is actually triggered by Cloanto this time that my work is wasted. Thank you so much for that.
You knew before you got into this that Hyperion was pirating 1.3 (your words, not mine) - which makes actually cooperating with them on a software project a mind-boggling move to begin with. One that you explained with "I don't have another choice, I want to work on AmigaOS".

And there's dozen of people available who used to work on a Hyperion OS project who could have told you what you were getting into. You just weren't interested in listening. Instead, you reappeared after a 15 year hiatus, showed up here and started to explain to us how all of this works: "This UAE driver is illegal, this P96 SDK project is illegal, the Vampire driver is illegal, Cloanto doesn't have a license to modify 3.x, Cloanto is pirating P96"...

The fact that you showed up here right after negotiations between Ben and Mike failed, to start badmouthing open source again strongly implies you're still relying on 'info' supplied by Ben or by one of his cronies.

If it all blows up, who's fault will that be?

Yep, Cloanto. That makes sense.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 05, 2020, 03:43:54 PM
You know what? I just spend more than two years, every night, every weekend, hoping to improve the software, hoping to help users. There is a new P96 you can buy, less bugs, even not as its maintainer. There is an AmigaOs 3.1.4 you can buy. There is a free update you get download. Did that help anyone? Is there a "thank you, well done"?

Nope, you have nothing better to say "It's your fault, you are funding lawers".

I tell you what: I can turn this around: "Every customer of AmigaForever is funding the current mess". Does that make sense to you? Probably not. It is as nonsensical as your statement.

You know, who is killing the system? Cloanto? Hyperion? Neither -guys like you, or Kolla, demotivating anyone who dares to help, by having to cooperate with the wrong side. You demolish everything, motivation, inspiration. You should be ashamed, really.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2020, 04:46:51 PM
So screwing up the Os 3.1.4 release with dubious “shrink wrap” license, wrongly phrased copyright statements, a kickstart directory with “emulators” in its name, a premature and broken shell, and plenty of OS 3.1 components that had not been touched since 3.1 and hence are not derived work, but the actual work, of intellectual property owned by Cloanto... was our fault? Or even Cloanto’s fault?

Are you also going to blame me for the brilliantly and so utterly well-informed Gulliver is writing on eab that AROS/68k is doomed, because the writing is on the wall - 68k AmigaOS will be open source?

Is it our fault that you decide that anyone who ever speak against you, is a troll?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 05, 2020, 05:17:30 PM
So screwing up the Os 3.1.4 release with dubious “shrink wrap” license, wrongly phrased copyright statements, a kickstart directory with “emulators” in its name, a premature and broken shell, and plenty of OS 3.1 components that had not been touched since 3.1 and hence are not derived work, but the actual work, of intellectual property owned by Cloanto... was our fault? Or even Cloanto’s fault?

Is it our fault that you decide that anyone who ever speak against you, is a troll?
You are a troll, kolla, exactly for statements like the above. If you don't see that, I cannot help it. You "forgot" what 3.1.4 brought, an extended intuition, a fixed and faster graphics, a considerably faster layers, fixes in scsi and exec, a more or less new printer.device, a new CD file system, a new crossdos, a new workbench, a HD Toolbox that works for large devices, and a file system that handles big partitions without rebooting, and a "couple" of things I forgot. All of that does not matter to you. You just pick out what you did not like, and where you can *blame* someone.

That, exactly that, makes you a troll.

Not people making mistakes. That is normal. Not fixing problems - that is a problem. Oh, by the way: If there were more components touched, there were more chances to make mistakes. With a small team, you can only touch so and so many things. It is important to keep the work focussed. Exactly not what happens in the open source world.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 05, 2020, 05:37:39 PM
So screwing up the Os 3.1.4 release with dubious “shrink wrap” license, wrongly phrased copyright statements, a kickstart directory with “emulators” in its name, a premature and broken shell, and plenty of OS 3.1 components that had not been touched since 3.1 and hence are not derived work, but the actual work, of intellectual property owned by Cloanto... was our fault? Or even Cloanto’s fault?

Is it our fault that you decide that anyone who ever speak against you, is a troll?
You are a troll, kolla, exactly for statements like the above. If you don't see that, I cannot help it. You "forgot" what 3.1.4 brought, an extended intuition, a fixed and faster graphics, a considerably faster layers, fixes in scsi and exec, a more or less new printer.device, a new CD file system, a new crossdos, a new workbench, a HD Toolbox that works for large devices, and a file system that handles big partitions without rebooting, and a "couple" of things I forgot. All of that does not matter to you. You just pick out what you did not like, and where you can *blame* someone.

That, exactly that, makes you a troll.

Not people making mistakes. That is normal. Not fixing problems - that is a problem. Oh, by the way: If there were more components touched, there were more chances to make mistakes. With a small team, you can only touch so and so many things. It is important to keep the work focussed. Exactly not what happens in the open source world.
You are clearly very talented.  WE need this.
It is my understanding that it is not illegal to take AROS sources and derive from them and repackage them for a paid product.  From what I understand about AROS68k, you can interchange files with AmigaOS.  I would "sell" AROS 68K specific enhancements that might co-incidentally work on 3.1...heck you could compile them for multiple AROS architectures and profit some more.
Also, regarding Kolla...  I think you are looking at him the wrong way.  He is the ultimate quality control department...and he works for FREE!  I would send him all your beta files for testing before anyone else.

I'm a professional coder.  However - I am not good at breaking my own code.  The company I work for has a QA department for this.
Make kolla your QA department...for free of course.   :)

I mean everyone hates their QA/QC department.  :P   ...but we need them...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Gulliver on March 05, 2020, 05:47:04 PM
I don't live under a rock, in fact, I am in a position that can see things happening that others try to guess. And I am not the only one.
So you can keep guessing all you want, but that does not make it a fact.
Jesus Christ, are you new to this scene? This is 2020 and you're saying in public, with a straight face, "Ben tells me things, so there!".

Trevor is now publicly accusing Ben Hermans of stealing half a million bucks from him, and forging bank documents to hide it. And Gulliver's walking around telling people "A-EON and Hyperion have been cooperating for some time". *facepalm*

I was wondering who Ben would pick as the next Solie. Looks like he has so many applications, he's probably going to run a competition. Hey, maybe you should buy some Hyperion shares? That's going to improve your chances a lot, you know.

I am sorry for you, I have very little contact with your beloved friend Ben.

But hey, you run the biased gossip show, not me, so you can try the guessing game all you want.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: cgutjahr on March 05, 2020, 06:04:10 PM
You know, who is killing the system? Cloanto? Hyperion? Neither -guys like you, or Kolla, demotivating anyone who dares to help
So, when you say things like....

"UAE P96 driver is illegal"
"Vampire P96 driver is illegal"
"Cloanto is pirating P96"
"This project to create a free P96 SDK is illegal"
"Cloanto has no license to modify P96"
"The Aminet admin is a lying troll"

... that's just valid criticism. But when I say "you're funding lawyers", I'm killing the system.

Care to explain? Or are you just going to make another dramatic exit?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Orphan264 on March 05, 2020, 09:12:53 PM
the whole "here's the entire OS 'we' own it" thing that caused the uproar. 

Uproar? Uproar? The only uproar I have noticed (CAN NOT AVOID) are the three or four Hyperion-haters in this thread. Over and over and over again.

and again.

At this point I can no longer see whatever point they are trying to make except they hate Hyperion and Thomas (who said himself he didn't want to be a Hyperion employee or contractor or anything, that is why the contributions he made were free. )

Sigh - and now I have done what I told myself I wouldn't. I know it is a complete waste of time to try to teach others courtesy or how to have civil conversation.

Have at it.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 06, 2020, 01:52:07 AM
the whole "here's the entire OS 'we' own it" thing that caused the uproar. 

Uproar? Uproar? The only uproar I have noticed (CAN NOT AVOID) are the three or four Hyperion-haters in this thread. Over and over and over again.

and again.

At this point I can no longer see whatever point they are trying to make except they hate Hyperion and Thomas (who said himself he didn't want to be a Hyperion employee or contractor or anything, that is why the contributions he made were free. )

Sigh - and now I have done what I told myself I wouldn't. I know it is a complete waste of time to try to teach others courtesy or how to have civil conversation.

Have at it.
Actually - until this case - I was pro Hyperion.  It's just when you see patterns...read the leaked transcripts from meetings...  Eventually a picture starts to form and things become clear.  Everyone is free to choose a side.  Me - I want progress...preferably multi-core and perhaps ported natively to the RPi platform.  I had hope for the Vampire but the clowns running that poop-show couldn't understand why I say you'd need a dedicated 3D chip to do 3d and that doing it all in the CPU was the same hubris those fools who made the CELL processor had.  That an all-cpu-based Amiga is not really an Amiga - it's a DRACO.

NOW over a year later, the master-chief is finally coming to the conclusion that his wunder-cpu can't actually do it all AT THE SAME TIME.  Finally the light bulb went on over his head that he'd need a dedicated chip to handle the gazillions of vector math operations required to do 3D any justice.

...but apparently he deemed that I didn't know what I was talking about and how dare I allude to the hubris behind his cpu and got banned...
...I also asked for an enhance AKIKO as a way to offload this work.  The master-chief told me it was a useless chip.
18 months later what do we have?
http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=28256&z=eG_Ga7
The master-chief singing AKIKO's praises...he's even using it to speed up c2p conversion of icons for displaying on SAGA.  Now ain't that something from a stupid idea about a useless chip...?
What the f*ck do I know?  I'm a troll.  Trolls should be banned.

Yep - that's the state of the Amiga 'community'.  People don't know how to take constructive criticism.  Every casual comment you type online gets blown up to 50 on a scale of 10.  That's why face-to-face meetings are important.  So words don't get skewed and intentions misrepresented.  This is why people still have gatherings and events.  Have a drink together.

This is why I think THOR is taking KOLLA the wrong way.  I say use his skills as quality control not as an insult.  Work with him instead of get mad at him.
It's a radical concept I guess...

@thor
All I can say THOR is - don't be like Gunnar.  Take criticism as the constructive type.  Are you coding to please yourself and have everyone sing your praises or are you coding for the sake of us users?  Users are your customers.  Their voice matters.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: guest11527 on March 06, 2020, 06:06:01 AM
Care to explain? Or are you just going to make another dramatic exit?
Care to explain why I should work for folks like you for free? This is just a waste of my time - and by this time unfortunately - also a waste of my health.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on March 06, 2020, 08:05:11 AM
now I am confused

I thought you are working for free now

 ???
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: BozzerBigD on March 06, 2020, 09:41:28 AM
@Thomas Richter

Not really sure why you've become this public mouthpiece for Hyperion's Classic Development team to be honest. You've taken on a lot and if you enjoy coding and cleaning up bugs in AmigaOS then good for you. I wouldn't feel the need to engage with the community on your work beyond developer updates otherwise the whole court case situation and Hyperion's complete lack of communication with their customers / the community will sadly make you their scapegoat. Thanks for your efforts and I hope Hyperion don't eventually spit you out like they did Steven Solie which I deem a possibility despite you working for free.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Kremlar on March 06, 2020, 10:31:18 AM
Is it naive to believe you worked on 3.1.4 for "free" as well?
What do you want to imply? That I'm lying? Thank you so much. It's probably not enough having worked on 3.1.4 without payment (not alone, of course), and having provided freeware over the last 20 years or so, also without payment. What else do you need? Do I need to open up my bank account to prove it? Which type of conspiracy theory comes next?

I'm implying that perhaps you should not assume primary motivation.  I don't know Mike Battalina well, but I did speak with him some at a convention a couple years back.  His motivation was clear to me, and it was not money.

Companies are made to make money. Sweet talk does not change that.

He had his company focused on making money licensing Commodore's IP since even before Hyperion ever existed.

And he is still selling the same repackaged stuff to this very day, instead of giving it away for free.

Talk is cheap.

His motivation is to make money and you are just another one that felt into his PR stunt.

LOL, someone is a bit jaded. 

So, work for something you love and your motives are pure.  Incorporate and track income and expenses for tax purposes and you are in it just for the money.

Everyone wants to make money, but people put time and effort into things for different reasons - whether they profit from it or not.

Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: ronniebeck on March 06, 2020, 12:20:50 PM
I thought you are working for free now

Quote from: BozzerBigD
@Thomas Richter
Not really sure why you've become this public mouthpiece for Hyperion's Classic Development team to be honest.

Hyperion got a great deal on Thomas.  Free software and publicity to boot.  Did he get an invite to the Hyperion Christmas party at least?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: CMTX on March 06, 2020, 12:43:45 PM
So... You Amiga users... Bullying the guy who is making the new Amiga OS  :o

On top of that (if I understood right) he is doing it for very little or no money. And you attack him for this too.

I can't but stratch my head. As a user i don't care if Cloanto, Hyperion or Nintendo releases a new AmigaOS as long as I can enjoy it.

This stuff makes me think AROS is the only way forward.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 06, 2020, 02:06:33 PM
This stuff makes me think AROS is the only way forward.
It is - congrats, with this statement you are now well on your way to become a troll in the eyes of the people you wanted to defend here.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 06, 2020, 02:30:09 PM
So... You Amiga users... Bullying the guy who is making the new Amiga OS  :o

On top of that (if I understood right) he is doing it for very little or no money. And you attack him for this too.

I can't but stratch my head. As a user i don't care if Cloanto, Hyperion or Nintendo releases a new AmigaOS as long as I can enjoy it.

This stuff makes me think AROS is the only way forward.
Exactly...and anyone can repackage it and fork it and sell it.  If Dr. M. Shultz offered a RPi4 AROS pre-installed - I'd buy it instantly.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: utri007 on March 06, 2020, 10:09:45 PM
Quote from: Kolla
It is - congrats, with this statement you are now well on your way to become a troll in the eyes of the people you wanted to defend here.

you got it wrong, they don't need to be defended, that is just a observation. What they do is their defence against trolls like you & partners. 

This thread is shamefull. :(

Time to time I check if there is any actual information, but no...



Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Minuous on March 07, 2020, 12:56:23 AM
There is plenty of development of OS3.2 going on; however I'm not inclined to bother sharing details on a site that is full of trolls and essentially unmoderated.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: BozzerBigD on March 07, 2020, 01:25:28 AM
@Minuous

Good glad to hear it, now it would be great if we didn't hear anything about it until it is done and ready to release preferably after the court settlement. Otherwise, the developers again run the risk of being perceived as mouth pieces of Hyperion. They are a company that didn't even have decency to follow through and organise an interview with Stephen Jones to readdress the balance and give their own customers the chance to ask some questions! However, they have no problem sending their secret coding weapon Thomas Richter onto the forums to "take one for the team" every single day of his life while they fritter away his hard won profits on legal shenanigans!  :o 
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: utri007 on March 07, 2020, 01:42:07 AM
@Minuous

However, they have no problem sending their secret coding weapon Thomas Richter onto the forums to "take one for the team" every single day of his life while they fritter away his hard won profits on legal shenanigans!  :o

What the f**k! Send Thomas here? to "take one of the team". What planet are you from? Or are you talking some other Thomas? It is weird place where you live.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: BozzerBigD on March 07, 2020, 10:14:07 AM
@utri007

What else is he doing if not promoting a Hyperion product and providing customer service that they have no intention of providing? How is it going? Is good will towards the endeavour increasing or decreasing? They ARE using him whether he cares or not and on the outside looking in I think he deserves better. In reality he's not going to get it especially on the forums pretending he can be above all the politics and the Amiga entities ripping themselves apart!
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Matt_H on March 07, 2020, 09:13:24 PM
Fucking hell, everyone. Can't we have a conversation without descending into personal insults and accusations of moral impurity? Yes, the legal situation is a disaster, and up is down, and x did y to z, and blah blah blah. I don't give a shit anymore. Fact of the matter is that Thomas and others are volunteering their time to try to advance this platform that we all claim to love. I stepped away from this thread because I felt I had said all I wanted to say, and now I come back to check in and find that the bullying and the holier-than-thou attitude has blown up to the point where it seems Thomas has left the site altogether. Tell me, what have you "won" by driving a valuable member of the community away? Who benefits?

Disagree with the direction Thomas is taking the OS? Disagree with the fact that Hyperion gets the proceeds? Fine, vote with your wallet and don't buy the resulting product. But don't shit on the *volunteer* effort that Thomas and others are putting forth to try to bring some advancement to the platform.

Someone sent me this thing about a year or two ago and this thread reminded me of it:
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/96/62/13/9662135f6812003255e3f71b435f927a.jpg)

Right now it looks like we're at step 7. Everyone needs to chill the fuck out.

It's pretty rare that I drop f-bombs and such in my posts, so let that be an indication of how disappointed I am in the direction this thread has gone. If I had mod powers it would now be locked. I'll say no more on this matter.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: utri007 on March 07, 2020, 11:57:02 PM
I f I were mod, I would ban Kolla forever just like mods on eab did. That would be good start.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: giZmo350 on March 08, 2020, 12:03:46 AM
As this whole theatrical rehearsal plays out for hundreds of confused (or should I say mislead) AO forum readers, it would be nice if the curtain were pulled back to find out who's pulling the strings on this charade! Me thinks there's a higher power influencing the bad actors in this thread.  ::)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: SpeedGeek on March 17, 2020, 01:14:58 PM
Now, it is time for another interesting update (after all the company is called "Hyperion Entertainment" ;D):

90 Notice of Withdrawal of Counsel Mon 03/16 3:44 PM
NOTICE OF WITHDRAWAL OF COUNSEL: Attorney Sarah E Elsden; Rhett V Barney and Robert J Carlson for Consol Defendant Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A., Plaintiff Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A., Counter Defendants Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A., Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A.. (Carlson, Robert)
89 Notice of Appearance Mon 03/16 11:51 AM
NOTICE of Appearance by attorney Eric Harrison on behalf of Consol Defendant Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A., Plaintiff Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A., Counter Claimant Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A., Counter Defendants Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A., Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A.. (Harrison, Eric)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 17, 2020, 01:45:31 PM
An update about how Hyperion's American legal team quit?

https://twitter.com/amigadocuments/status/1239789197575192576

Is that the kind of update you were looking for?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 17, 2020, 02:32:14 PM
Wild guess - the lawyers, like everyone else working for Hyperion... were not paid?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: number6 on March 17, 2020, 11:20:22 PM
Wild guess - the lawyers, like everyone else working for Hyperion... were not paid?

Quote
On August 12, 2019, Ms. Elsden advised Plaintiffs’ counsel that her firm had not
been retained to represent Hyperion in this action.
 Consequently, no appearance has been filed by anyone on behalf of Hyperion.

Source (https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.272892/gov.uscourts.wawd.272892.14.0.pdf)

So...official removal but not new really.

#6
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Tygre on March 18, 2020, 03:38:07 AM
I f I were mod, I would ban Kolla forever just like mods on eab did. That would be good start.

Hi Utri007!

Yes, I totally agree! Unfortunately, there is no moderation here right now, short of contacting directly Trevor when things really go too far :-\

Take care!
Tygre
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: ronniebeck on March 18, 2020, 08:57:08 AM
I f I were mod, I would ban Kolla forever just like mods on eab did. That would be good start.
Hi Utri007!
Yes, I totally agree! Unfortunately, there is no moderation here right now, short of contacting directly Trevor when things really go too far :-\

I like the questions he has been posting in recent times.  Through his challanges to Thomas Richter..............ah he calls himself guest11527 now (LOL)..........we have had a little insight into how OS 3.1.4/3.2 is being developed.  We have also learned that some, if not all, of the developers don't seem to understand (accept?) the wishes of the wider Amiga user base.  The FPGA phenomenon and Open Source seem somewhat lost of them.  Kolla has shone a light on this.  And I have found the responses from guest11527 and his collaborators ..................well disappointing.  Kolla earned the title "troll" long before this thread but his questions are often on the minds of others including myself.  Kolla isn't wrong to push the question when developers give questionable/wrong answers. 

I have observed however there are some rules to not being labelled a "troll" and earmarked for expulsion by the absentee admins.

Ask difficult questions =>  You troll!
Want to know why device XY won't be supported anymore => You troll!
Want Amiga OS as an Open Source OS => You just want to open it up to more trolls.  You troll!
Want to know about OS3.2 development => Sorry, too many trolls.
Want to use AROS => You hippy.........troll!
Blindy accept the gospel according to Hyperion sanctioned devs => Acceptable.

The settlement is just step one in this sad story.  How/if developers and the community at large will accept this settlement will be almost as influential.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: utri007 on March 18, 2020, 01:47:12 PM
Ask difficult questions =>  You troll!
Want to know why device XY won't be supported anymore => You troll!
Want Amiga OS as an Open Source OS => You just want to open it up to more trolls.  You troll!
Want to know about OS3.2 development => Sorry, too many trolls.
Want to use AROS => You hippy.........troll!
Blindy accept the gospel according to Hyperion sanctioned devs => Acceptable.

No, this is right version :

Ask difficult questions 1000x and don't accept the answer =>  You troll!
Want to know why device XY won't be supported anymore, don't accept the answer and ask it again 1000x => You troll!
Want Amiga OS 3.1.4 as an Open Source OS and tell it 1000x. =>  You troll!
Want to use AROS , tell it OS3.1.4 discussion 1000x =>you troll!
Make this kind of accusations, "Blindy accept the gospel according to Hyperion sanctioned devs" => You troll!.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 18, 2020, 03:43:38 PM

No, this is right version :

Ask difficult questions 1000x and don't accept the answer =>  You troll!

Accept what answers, Thomas just keeps jumping in to repeat that he is not a spokes person for Hyperion and cannot answer the questions - even when the questions were never meant for him, for whatever reasons he just decide that he _has_ to respond. It would be much more useful if someone from Hyperion could answer, but they are not even around on their own support site.

Quote
Want to know why device XY won't be supported anymore, don't accept the answer and ask it again 1000x
And yet - the support was and is there - and Thomas even provided a new kernel modul
(though some of us already had figured out how to get that kickstart module)

What I want to know, is how come the developers of the OS are lacking so much hardware - would it really be so hard for Hyperion to sponsor a handful of machines for these poor guys? I know Cloanto have sponsored hardware for UAE developers, cannot Hyperion do the same?

Quote
Want Amiga OS 3.1.4 as an Open Source OS and tell it 1000x.

You clearly misunderstood the discussion - Thomas is not arguing about just OS being open source or not, his rants are very often about open source in general, refers to how "this is untrue, just look at my githib" which only consists of software that is not his, and for which he has no choice than to follow the license of respective creators - ironically, development of OS 3.1.4 and now 3.2 rely on open source tools and frameworks.

Besides, some other "OS team memeber", Gulliver, has written quite clearly that AmigaOS _WILL_ be open source, because it is unavoidable, regardless of whether Hyperion or Cloanto ends up as owner. And because of that "AROS/68k is doomed".

Quote
Want to use AROS , tell it OS3.1.4 discussion 1000x

The one who keep bringing up AROS was Thomas, that is is answer to anyone who are against signing NDAs with Hyperion, or who in general are not satisfied with how OS3 is going... "go away, go use AROS if you want sources!"

Quote
Make this kind of accusations, "Blindy accept the gospel according to Hyperion sanctioned devs"

Then answer this truthfully - do you accept and fully adhere to the software license of OS3.1.4?
You know, that software license that Thomas hasn't even bothered to read?

Or do you keep backups?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: ppcamiga1 on March 18, 2020, 06:59:26 PM
Quote
would it really be so hard for Hyperion to sponsor a handful of machines for these poor guys

classic hardware are old most of them has 25 and more years, fragile, hard to get, very expensive with really insane prices.
So yes it is hard for Hyperion to provide it. It is ok.  It's understandable.
Developers use what they own.
You should understand this kolla and not made problems with it.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 18, 2020, 10:03:46 PM
You should understand this kolla and not made problems with it.

Why can they not arrange an agreement with their dear partner Trevor, who has a reputation of owning one of the larger amiga collections known to man, to borrow needed hardware?

Other developers manage - Terrible Fire, the Vampire team, Linux/68k developers, NetBSD developers... all of them have access to the very same hardware.

No, I really do not understand.

Should I put my hardware list in the signature too, for credibility? :)
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Louis Dias on March 20, 2020, 09:32:16 PM
At this point I'm more worried about how the world's freedom has completely disappeared than what Hyperion is doing...
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: ronniebeck on March 22, 2020, 04:49:08 PM
No, this is right version :

Ask difficult questions 1000x and don't accept the answer =>  You troll!
.
.
.

No no.  I had it right.  Really I did.  ;D

Quote from: ppcamiga1
classic hardware are old most of them has 25 and more years, fragile, hard to get, very expensive with really insane prices.
So yes it is hard for Hyperion to provide it. It is ok.  It's understandable.

Really? fragile and expensive?  If I recall correctly, the hardware in question was similar to (if not actually):

https://amigastore.eu/en/129-4xeide-99-interface.html

Brand new for 50€.  And there are plenty of Amigas around to be bought.  Look at ebay. An A500, A600, A1200, A2000 are easy to find.  A3000 and A4000 less so.  And people have even been producing brand new motherboards for A500, A1200, A3000 and A4000 using NOS chips and brand new components.  But somehow it was impossible to get hardware?  No, they were just to lazy, more likely.

So if we sum up:

- Seemingly, the developers of OS3.1.4/3.2 are unpaid
- Seemingly, the developers of OS3.1.4/3.2 have to supply their own hardware
- Seemingly, the developers of OS3.1.4/3.2 have lost touch with the Amiga community
- Seemingly, the developers of OS3.1.4/3.2 don't know the answer to technical questions
- And Hyperion is being sued.

<queue Benny Hill theme song>
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: ppcamiga1 on March 23, 2020, 06:05:04 AM
Some clowns that hate Hyperion are trolling as usually.
4000 E for A 4000 on Ebay is insane price.
Nobody reasonable will expect Hyperion to provide something like this for developers.



 
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2020, 07:26:49 AM
4000 E for A 4000 on Ebay is insane price.
Nobody reasonable will expect Hyperion to provide something like this for developers.

Why can't Hyperion speak with their good friend Trevor about borrowing hardware from his famous warehouse sized collection?
http://obligement.free.fr/gfx/trevordickinson_amiga_collection_5.jpg

Btw - see that "A1200/A600 4X BUFFERED IDE INTERFACE" ad up here, with phony "registered trademarks" all over it on it, and with (in typical AmigaKit domain squatting fashion) a dysfunctional link pointing to 1&1 IONOS domain hosting? That is the kind of hardware that was in question - I have a small handful of these in a box here, as well a couple of splitting cables somewhere that I built myself (the documentation for how to build one are on Aminet), and they are also implemented on UAEs as well as some FPGA systems, like the MiSTer. I was about to send one to Thomas when he discovered in the sources that scsi.device since OS3.9 and 4.0 days already does support these splitters, when a dummy kickstart module with a certain name is in place. This worked well enough for the splitters I have, so I considered it a solved issue. Does it work for all such IDE splitters? Probably not, some vendors (like Elbox) also do much more on theirs (like splitting 4GB+ drives into several "virtual" 4GB drives), but these rely on replacing scsi.device with their own old crap anyways (like the Elbox ata3.driver's scsi.device version "50.-0"...) and are hence not really relevant - the point is that IDEFix97 is now pretty much redundant.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: ppcamiga1 on March 23, 2020, 02:29:30 PM
Borrow on what conditions?
Who will pay if this precious hardware will be damaged or lost in transport?
Hyperion treats some classic users better than they deserve.
If I were Hyperion owner I will be join with some hardware producer and made new cpu and graphics cards for classic
and made new os releases for classic only for hardware produced by me.
Instead Hyperion allows developers to work on what they own.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: OlafS3 on March 23, 2020, 07:30:22 PM
what hardware producer will cooperate with hyperion (one man company, two?) to make new hardware for classic market?
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: digitalMedic on March 23, 2020, 08:26:50 PM
Having read through this entire thread, I can say one thing.  Everyone has blame in this, Cloanto, Hyperion, etc., etc..  The only thing that will end up hurt after the dust settles is the end user and the Amiga.  News break for all the companies involved in this legal war, give it up.  No one is going to strike it rich on this platform.  While it has its good points, it lost its chance 25 years ago.  The primary people interested in it are the hobbyists, and we are not going to make you rich.  You will push us away though if you continue this fighting over scraps.  I also wanted to thank the devs who worked hard to bring us OS 3.1.4, regardless of who owns it at this point.  Thank you for your drive and passion to improve a piece of computer nostalgia that holds great memories for many of us.
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: F1Lupo on March 24, 2020, 07:50:32 PM
c'mon Cloanto & Hyperion..dammit I want to see SOMETHING posted 'else' on amiga.com  >:(
Title: Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
Post by: Methuselas on March 25, 2020, 03:54:49 AM
Holy shit..........


This is why I left the Amiga Scene. Somethings never change....... :o