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AuthorTopic: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"  (Read 23015 times)

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Offline giZmo350

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2020, 01:12:26 AM »
but everybody is free to stay away.

Or jump on ......  as I like to see it!   8)



Man! Amiga Ireland 35 looked like sooooooooo much fun! The wifey actually told me that she would go to an Amiga event overseas with me the other night! Oh yeah!  :D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 01:44:22 AM by giZmo350 »
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Offline Rotzloeffel

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2020, 09:36:41 AM »
OK, but from a developer standpoint, is 3.2 ready for release now or will need some more work?

There is still some work left :) The new features needs a lot of testing…. stay tuned :)
Save Planet Earth! It is the only one in the galaxy with fresh and cold beer :laughing:
 

Offline cgutjahr

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #137 on: February 20, 2020, 04:24:26 PM »
I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a few days. this 2006 article from Sun Microsystems is a little old but has some good points, getting into the merits and pitfalls of open source. Bear in mind that he's speaking about large, corporate-backed open-source efforts; we'd need something appropriate to the scale of our tiny community:
Sun is actually a very good example for what I'm saying. The reality is that Sun, despite their promises and announcements earlier on, kept developing OpenOffice pretty much like a closed source project: The original development team in Hamburg was doing most of the work - and while it was theoretically possible for external developers to submit patches, those patches very rarely made it into the actual source code.

The situation got so bad that members of the Linux and free software communities established a fork called go-oo to make sure they could at least customize the build process to their needs - all versions of OpenOffice for Linux/BSD were actually go-oo builds, not OpenOffice builds.

But as you're well aware, none of that stopped OpenOffice from being a massive success - without any "open source governance" to speak of (other than for managing communities, translation efforts etc., obviously).

Fundamentally I'd say it's a combination of institutional management, project management, and community management.
If you choose to go that way, yes. But nobody is forcing you to do that.

I don't think you replied to my suggestion of not changing the development and release process at all other than releasing a source archive with every binary release you make?

Needs zero additional governance, and no project or community management skills that aren't already required anyway. Yet, it guarantees we're not facing the next dead-end if Thomas leaves the Amiga scene for another 15 year sabbatical or Hyperion turns out to be not as stellar an outfit as we all assumed (or simply vanishes).

The professionalism and discipline cited above are key. We need (1) user- and developer-backed decision makers to set long-term goals and priorities of individual releases, we need (2) community liaisons to stay on the pulse of user needs and to be the first line of communication so that (3) skilled developers can focus on executing the roadmap for a given release.
No we don't. All of that would be nice to have - for any open or closed source project. But we don't have them right now, and we're getting by somehow. We'd still be getting by without them if the project code was freely available.

The professionalism and discipline are essential in the process so that everyone's opinions are respected, even if some people's opinions aren't adopted verbatim. That's how we prevent (further) fragmentation.
Are you saying Thomas is not professional enough to prevent fragmentation? That's mean. Or, to use his words: "stop trolling, you have no clue" ;)

We established that fragmentation has become pretty bad already. We also established that the source code is already easily available and that people are doing things with it. We also established that people don't care much about copyright anymore - that includes the 3.1.4 team, which works for a man Thomas himself accused of pirating 1.3. Yet, despite all of this, 3.1.4 was quite a success. I don't see any evidence things might get worse on the fragmentation front.

Can you name any coder who could pull of a AmigaOS/Kickstart fork and isn't (a) long gone, (b) busy with AROS/MorphOS/OS4/ExecNG (c) stupid enough try to compete with a competent, well-respected team that's been working on the code for years (d) disillusioned by the prospect of being ignored due to not having THE NAME (e) laughed out of town every time he suggests he could improve some library? I can't.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #138 on: February 20, 2020, 05:18:47 PM »
I don't think you replied to my suggestion of not changing the development and release process at all other than releasing a source archive with every binary release you make?
Because that wouldn't stop the usual noise, would create the trolling that is so much the nature of this "community", and it would still create forked system components, creating an overall setup that is not maintainable anymore. We already have this trouble today, now multiply this by the number of Os components and the number of custom builds. It is already hard enough to debug a system like AmigaOs as "patched up" systems are the norm and not the exception. If we now add "patched up system components" to the game, how is that going to help?

Whoever wants to develop is invited to join, but with coordination and moderation, please.

Needs zero additional governance, and no project or community management skills that aren't already required anyway.
Huh? But of course it needs "additional governance".

Yet, it guarantees we're not facing the next dead-end if Thomas leaves the Amiga scene for another 15 year sabbatical or Hyperion turns out to be not as stellar an outfit as we all assumed (or simply vanishes).
You already have the dead-end. Access to Os4 would be finally lost, and I'm personally not willing to develop in the kind of aggressive environment that is the consequence, well knowing the "community". Thanks, but no, thanks.

Are you saying Thomas is not professional enough to prevent fragmentation? That's mean. Or, to use his words: "stop trolling, you have no clue" ;)
No, I'm not. How ccould I prevent that, with the sources out of the door? That is impossible. Besides, why should the work break down without me, on the Hyperion side?

Or, for the sake of the argument, let's consider Cloanto makes the Os open source. Who prevents me from taking the sources and create my own fork? I can develop indepedently, publish what I like, and avoid communications with Cloanto. They can do what they want, I can do what I want, then we have AmigaOs times two. As long as I can use mine, I'm happy, and Cloanto, well, that's their problem then.

We established that fragmentation has become pretty bad already. We also established that the source code is already easily available and that people are doing things with it. We also established that people don't care much about copyright anymore - that includes the 3.1.4 team, which works for a man Thomas himself accused of pirating 1.3.
I'm sorry, but I care about copyright. If you say "people are doing things with it", well, then that's "a fork". I cannot prevent that, but at least, the current situation we have now keeps the damage somewhat under control as such copies are not floating around, and it also prevents users from filing reports.

Yet, despite all of this, 3.1.4 was quite a success. I don't see any evidence things might get worse on the fragmentation front.
I do. Look around,

Can you name any coder who could pull of a AmigaOS/Kickstart fork and isn't (a) long gone, (b) busy with AROS/MorphOS/OS4/ExecNG (c) stupid enough try to compete with a competent, well-respected team that's been working on the code for years (d) disillusioned by the prospect of being ignored due to not having THE NAME (e) laughed out of town every time he suggests he could improve some library? I can't.
Yes. Me. (-: Let's consider: Again, for the sake of the argument, why should I be stupid enough to work for Cloanto for nothing if I can work for myself for nothing? (-;

Or even differently - I do not get the "business model" Cloanto has here. I don't believe that they are that folly.
 

Offline cgutjahr

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #139 on: February 20, 2020, 06:44:05 PM »
Yes. Me. (-: Let's consider: Again, for the sake of the argument, why should I be stupid enough to work for Cloanto for nothing if I can work for myself for nothing? (-;
For the same reason you're stupid enough (your words, not mine) to work for Hyperion for free?

And again: I have no idea why you keep bringing up Cloanto. It's almost as if something regarding open source came up in the recent settlement discussions and you feel threatened by it. Care to comment?

I'm discussing the general idea of freeing the IP, not some Cloanto takeover. If Ben wants to free the IP, or Ben finally sells the IP to Trevor and he's freeing it - I'm all for it.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 06:45:14 PM by cgutjahr »
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2020, 06:49:19 PM »
Who prevents me from taking the sources and create my own fork?

why in hell do you think anyone should prevent you?
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #141 on: February 20, 2020, 06:51:03 PM »
If Ben wants to free the IP, or Ben finally sells the IP to Trevor and he's freeing it
haha.. ha.
 

Offline number6

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #142 on: February 20, 2020, 07:03:26 PM »
@Thomas Richter

Quote
Or even differently - I do not get the "business model" Cloanto has here

I am unaware of Cloanto doing much more than requesting feedback through their cloanto.org site.
If there is anything in print regarding plans/business model I'd appreciate a link so I can enhance my understanding.

The understanding expressed almost a year ago (and alluded to often since) was that amiga.com was to be used to discuss such things, but as we all know, the domain got drawn into the trademark lawsuit and the lawyers effectively prevented it's use for this purpose.

#6
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #143 on: February 20, 2020, 07:13:40 PM »
For the same reason you're stupid enough (your words, not mine) to work for Hyperion for free?
Well, if Cloanto would keep things closed and creates a workable environment, works for me. So it's not Cloanto or Hyperion in that sense, though the model.

And again: I have no idea why you keep bringing up Cloanto.
Wasn't this what this thread was all about? And some speculations and statements from them that they want to do exactly that?

I'm discussing the general idea of freeing the IP, not some Cloanto takeover. If Ben wants to free the IP, or Ben finally sells the IP to Trevor and he's freeing it - I'm all for it.
Well, that's what we are discussing, except that I consider it unlikely that Ben wants to release anything. As far as Travor is concerned, I have no idea.

Open Source can be a commercial success, but that requires a business model. I do not quite see that - if you get can the thing for free for download, well, as far as I know the Amiga users, there would be no point buying anything. So why support an open source distribution company?

On the Linux side, I understand the business. You get support, some in-house components, certifications for particular hardware, you get the updates for a limited time, you get consulting and service - as long as there are commercial partners and customers on board, it is a viable model. We don't have that in Amiga-land, there *are* no commercial customers here. Just folly.
 

Offline cgutjahr

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #144 on: February 20, 2020, 08:09:40 PM »
Open Source can be a commercial success, but that requires a business model. I do not quite see that - if you get can the thing for free for download, well, as far as I know the Amiga users, there would be no point buying anything. So why support an open source distribution company?
I'm just guessing here, but I'd say Cloanto's business model is not selling operating systems, but selling user-friendly, all-in-one, easy to install nostalgia trips (i.e. Amiga/Commodore Forever). Cloanto's business does not depend on OS sales. He's been selling a bundle containing all Amiga ROMs for something like 70 cent on Google's playstore for ages, I doubt he's getting rich from that.

Why buy AmigaOS if it's open source? Because...

  • ...only the commcerical version would have official branding
  • ...collectors buy (a) anything in a Box and (b) anything with an 'official' Amiga mark
  • ...ROMs and disks can't be downloaded from the net
  • ...people want to support the effort

Should be enough to support the effort of making a physical edition.

Btw.: I admire your guts talking about 'business models' while working for/with Hyperion.
 

Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #145 on: February 20, 2020, 08:41:43 PM »
Meanwhile, in the very much fragmented world of open source development...

https://opensource.apple.com/
https://opensource.microsoft.com/
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Offline bison

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #146 on: February 21, 2020, 01:49:21 AM »
On the Linux side, I understand the business. You get support, some in-house components, certifications for particular hardware, you get the updates for a limited time, you get consulting and service - as long as there are commercial partners and customers on board, it is a viable model. We don't have that in Amiga-land, there *are* no commercial customers here. Just folly.
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that Linux didn't start out that way.
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #147 on: February 21, 2020, 05:41:34 AM »
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that Linux didn't start out that way.
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that AmigaOs runs on obsolete hardware, and has an obsolete design as "operating system". Linux had a future because it had a sane design, and it run on hardware that offered a future. AmigaOs has neither. It is pretty pointless to compare the two.
 

Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #148 on: February 21, 2020, 02:14:57 PM »
You seem pretty intent on ignoring the fact that AmigaOs runs on obsolete hardware, and has an obsolete design as "operating system". Linux had a future because it had a sane design, and it run on hardware that offered a future. AmigaOs has neither. It is pretty pointless to compare the two.
Nine out of ten times, it is YOU who keep dragging in Linux as comparison.

Why not compare against something more similar, like Atari MiNT or RISC OS?

Oh, because Linux is the only open source system you ever had any contact with, right?
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Offline OlafS3

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #149 on: February 21, 2020, 02:23:35 PM »
the comparation is a little silly

nobody expects anything amiga related, even if open source, to become a success like Linux

I already wrote that it is dangerous for software on a small market to be dependent on the decisions or fate of one person. If Cloanto wins and they cannot come to a agreement with Hyperion (Ben H.) 3.1.4 is dead and all your work vanishes. If 3.1 would have been open source and you would have contributed to it, it would not be important what anyone else does. And as I already wrote too... the danger of lots of forkes is not big because you need skilled devs for it who want to do it. Those are rare in the amiga community so finally there would very propably be just one fork you (perhaps together with one or two others) would manage. No different than now, just without the danger of being killed by others. And it would be easier for people to take part because of no NDA to sign. I cannot understand your aversion against open source. Even if it is a little more chaotic the advantage of being independent outweighs the potential disadvantages, at least for me. And the problems closed source has is obvious when you look at the situation of Amiga OS. The same already happened to lots of amiga software.

It is anyway just a theoretical discussion... it all depends how the legal argument is decided. Nobody here can influence that and nobody will ask you either. If Cloanto really open source 3.1 (what they repeated a couple of times in recent years) you have to think if you want to continue. In this case 3.1.4 is in doubt anyway because of the 4.1 sources you used (as I understand it). If Hyperion wins or it ends without decision nothing changes for you.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 02:34:24 PM by OlafS3 »