Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update

[kamelito]

There will be no vampire specific Kickstart. There will be neither a Cyberstorm specific Kickstart, nor a GVP specific Kickstart. If vampire wants to support customized device drivers, there are plenty methods how to add such devices to the system. Autoconfig is one option. Adding the devices to the F-space ROM is another.

For now it is an accelerator maybe, so what you're saying is right, but SAGA/Pamela add new customs registers like the original Amiga in the $DFFxxx space...so it seems logical that it could be part of the OS instead of having a solution like P96 or CGX no?

[olsen]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAGE_Computer_Technology

Yes, SAGE was my first idea (the SAGE II and SAGE IV models), but I know next to nothing about the roles these machines played during development of the Amiga operating system precursor. If I remember correctly, they were both suitable for software development and for hardware prototyping, but less powerful than the workstations of its age. But: CP/M 68k as a software development system? I can't quite picture that.

I don't know how expensive the SAGE machines were in comparison to the IBM-PCs of the same time. What I do know is that the firmware for the Amiga keyboard processor was written in 6502 assembly language, translated into production code using an MS-DOS based assembler program.

It's very well possible that SAGE machines were in use all over the place during the Hi Toro/Amiga days (one of the company's founders mentioned this in an interview which I read), but it's also possible that other computers available more cheaply could have played an important part, too.

For example, when Electronic Arts committed to the Amiga, their developers would use MS-DOS for development work. The source code to "Prism" (precursor to "Deluxe Paint") shows that the MS-DOS Lattice 'C' compiler was used to build it. IBM-PCs of the time (1984/1985) were probably much cheaper than the Sun 2/3 machines available then.

[cgutjahr]

Wonder if OS 3.1.4 will use AROS code for a certain component, like OS 3.9 does

The code in question was the v44 colorwheel gadget. It was actually developed for 3.5 and then donated to AROS aswell. Nothing to see here.

Yes, SAGE was my first idea (the SAGE II and SAGE IV models), but I know next to nothing about the roles these machines played during development of the Amiga operating system precursor.

According to Bagnalls "The Amiga Years", Amiga started assembling a software team in August 83 and had bought a bunch of SAGE IV machines for them to use. I'm assuming these were only used as terminals though, because Mical is quoted in the book that later on (when Commodore bought Amiga), each Software Engineer got "his own powerful SUN workstation, with his own harddisk and CPU".

[Karlos]

Linux makes programmers happy - not users. I do not want this to happen with AmigaOs.

X11 vs. Wayland. Cups vs. lpr. Alsa vs. jack. initv vs. systemd. A lot of wasted resources.

I think that boat sailed a long time ago already.

EGS v Picasso96 v CyberGraphX, Gadtools v Triton v ClassAct/Reaction v MUI/Zune, WarpOS v PowerUp. Hell even CAMD v midi.library and I only know that one because I used it to make an ultra low overhead tool for realtime midi remapping so my pre GM real kit could be used in a more standard setting.

[guest11527]

EGS v Picasso96 v CyberGraphX, Gadtools v Triton v ClassAct/Reaction v MUI/Zune, WarpOS v PowerUp.

There is an important difference here. If this would be Linux, I would say now "Ditch CGfx, it is in our way for developing intuition (which is true), P96 is the better system (which is what at least I believe), users need to migrate (which I do not believe)".

However, this is not Linux. Our intention cannot be to loose 50% of the RTG user base just to make developers happy. The right decision is: We freeze intuition at V40 so CGfx and P96 remain working. Intution V40 does not have serious bugs, so we can just continue to use it. That will cost a couple of features V45 has, but so might it be. Stability and consistency are more important than features.

[Iggy]

Thomas, I obviously don't agree with you about P96 (probably because it only builds on something Mariak and his partner started), BUT, since you can't get a license to further develop Cybergraphics I understand why you favor P96.

Although...I absolutely LOVED this comment about, ""the last bug"(tm)".

Hammering out ""the last bug"(tm)", yes!

You and Olsen keep wackamoling!

I actually think that cleaning up OS3.1 is an extremely noble idea and worthwhile goal.

And regardless of what everyone thinks of as "the real" 3.1...you've got MY full support.

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

Stability and consistency are more important than features.

Mmmm.  Then what's the point in developing a new version at all?  As the saying goes, you've gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. :lol:

[guest11527]

Thomas, I obviously don't agree with you about P96 (probably because it only builds on something Mariak and his partner started), BUT, since you can't get a license to further develop Cybergraphics I understand why you favor P96.

We can discuss this forever, and probably in another thread. Fact is that Frank does no longer supports it - yes, we did ask, but not cigar, this was a dead-end. No matter what, this is one of the situations where you need to set your private preferences back.

There are other hard decisions like this. We will neither get Tab expansion in 3.1.4. The way how Tab-expansion is handled by multiple third-party extensions and the Os 4 con-handler - is ill-designed as it requires the console to second-guess the shell syntax. This goes at least wrong as soon as the shell is replaced by a user shell, and the shell syntax is complex enough already. Continuing this path would introduce subtle bugs I do not want to hunt down later.

There is a better design, though implementing it at this time would delay 3.1.4 noticably and would risk instabilities. So, not now.

[guest11527]

Mmmm.  Then what's the point in developing a new version at all?  As the saying goes, you've gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. :lol:

A new version of what? Anyhow, how we continue from here depends also on how 3.1.4 is received. If this goes well, we may probably plan for a major release (3.14?).

Anyhow, this is all speculation at this time.

[Tenacious]

Mmmm.  Then what's the point in developing a new version at all?  As the saying goes, you've gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. :lol:

I don't see much new software appearing anymore.  If 3.1.4 is not mindful of backward compatibility, who's going to patch the existing applications for this release?  

I'd rather have a bug-fixed and compatible OS instead of one that adds features that breaks software.  All of the other Amiga flavors are still in existence.  If I want a really different tasting omelet, I can always turn on the Mac, Windows or a Rasberry Pi, etc.  The alternatives are almost endless.

My 2 cents...

[ExiE_]

A new version of what? Anyhow, how we continue from here depends also on how 3.1.4 is received. If this goes well, we may probably plan for a major release (3.14?).

Anyhow, this is all speculation at this time.

This is actually chicken and egg problem. There is no point to buy 3.1.4 if it is not full replacement of OS3.9 AND/OR there is no clear path to future. And the future can't be guaranteed due unknown 3.1.4 profitability AND Hyperion (possible profit can go to other projects like OS4 or litigation...)

[guest11527]

This is actually chicken and egg problem. There is no point to buy 3.1.4 if it is not full replacement of OS3.9 AND/OR there is no clear path to future.

Sorry to disappoint you. Just to make one thing clear: 3.1.4 is not supposed to be a replacement for Os 3.9. It cannot. We do not have Reaction, and a lot of other distributions for 3.9. Nor is it supposed to be. You can certainly install it on top of 3.9 if you like.

In particular: 3.1.4 will not come with Reaction. It will not come with Reaction-based preferences. It will not come with Genesis. It will not come with BenchTrash, ZipTools or ViNCEd. It will not come with AmiDock, WarpOs, the xpk-libraries or AsyncWB, or AWeb. There will be no MP3 player, no CD-Player, no AVI-Player. It will not come with the mmulib.

This is a bare-bone core operating system, same bare-bone as 3.1 was. If you need further components, you'll find plenty in Aminet. Actually, part of the goal is to leave "distribution building" to third parties, as we have really limited development capacity.

Furthermore, nobody is willing to guarantee you anything in Amigaland, how can we possibly do that? We're doing the best we can, that is all I can promise.

Thus, if you expect a new, fully blown distribution, you are wrong here. All I am going to promise is a bug-fixed release of Os 3.1. It was never announced as anything beyond that.

Thus, if you expect the best invention since deep dishes (as we say in Germany) - no, it's not. But it is the latest, newest and most robust deep dish anyone can possibly sell you. You probably have to fill it yourself, though.

[kolla]

Concerning Linux: I believe I told you very well what I dislike about it, namely that the developers - insead of stabilizing the platform - continue to re-invent new solutions for old problems that have long been solved. Linux makes programmers happy - not users. I do not want this to happen with AmigaOs.

Who are these unhappy Linux users you speak of? Apart from yourself, a programmer.

Your fear that AmigaOS will make programmers happy is rather funny - have you not noticed yet, that programmers left a long time ago? I *wish* for an AmigaOS that would make programmers happy, so they could come back. Happy programmers are a must if you want happy users. If you ONLY want happy Amiga users, you should work with people of bling-bling distros like ApolloOS, AmiKit, BetterWB, ClassicWB etc.

X11 vs. Wayland. Cups vs. lpr. Alsa vs. jack. initv vs. systemd. A lot of wasted resources.

You mean X11 vs. SunView, Athena vs Motif, MIR vs Wayland, IPP vs LPD, ALSA vs. OSS, JACK vs PulseAudio, sysv init (+ openrc and many others) vs systemd - why stop here? Linux vs. UNIX, GNU vs BSD, Windows vs MacOS, Atari vs Amiga... oh, talking about wasting resources - MorphOS vs OS4 vs AROS, CGFx vs P96, AS225 vs AmiTCP vs Miami vs Roadshow, BGUI vs. gtlayout vs. MUI vs ClassAct vs whatever, Reqtools vs ASL vs ...

The goal of re-inventing the wheel is obviously to get a better wheel, sometimes that happens, other times not.

[kolla]

I'm accepting that a build done on any POSIX system through vamos is now part of the process of building the 68k Amiga operating system. Irony be damned

Again, that is not what I find ironic, lots of AmigaOS work was done on SunOS anyways.

What I find ironic, is that of all the systems out there to use, ThoR uses Linux, an OS kernel he never fails to go out of his way to bash around (presumably after being butt-hurt over his own kernel code stopped working as he failed to maintain it over time - a concept the Linux project strives for, keeping upper layer programmers happy rather than kernel coders). You would think ThoR would be much happier with a more conservative and less change-happy environment, such as most of the BSDs are.

[Ami Joe]

Just love this Idea !
as long as my beloved ScalaIC, VideoTracker, VidiAmiga12 still work then iam all for it..

Good luck Thom !!

Now iam going back to lurking for another 8 years

[nyteschayde]

Sorry to disappoint you. Just to make one thing clear: 3.1.4 is not supposed to be a replacement for Os 3.9. It cannot. We do not have Reaction, and a lot of other distributions for 3.9. Nor is it supposed to be. You can certainly install it on top of 3.9 if you like.

In particular: 3.1.4 will not come with Reaction. It will not come with Reaction-based preferences. It will not come with Genesis. It will not come with BenchTrash, ZipTools or ViNCEd. It will not come with AmiDock, WarpOs, the xpk-libraries or AsyncWB, or AWeb. There will be no MP3 player, no CD-Player, no AVI-Player. It will not come with the mmulib.

This is a bare-bone core operating system, same bare-bone as 3.1 was. If you need further components, you'll find plenty in Aminet. Actually, part of the goal is to leave "distribution building" to third parties, as we have really limited development capacity.

Furthermore, nobody is willing to guarantee you anything in Amigaland, how can we possibly do that? We're doing the best we can, that is all I can promise.

Thus, if you expect a new, fully blown distribution, you are wrong here. All I am going to promise is a bug-fixed release of Os 3.1. It was never announced as anything beyond that.

Thus, if you expect the best invention since deep dishes (as we say in Germany) - no, it's not. But it is the latest, newest and most robust deep dish anyone can possibly sell you. You probably have to fill it yourself, though.

Thom, dont get caught up replying to angst ridden Amiga folks that would slam you for doing the rest of the community a favor. I have always appreciated your explanations and training and any updates will be appreciated by those that use the system.

There will always be trolls and those with troll like behavior who will slam those who offer what is seen by them as a less than perfect solution. Oh well, everyone gets an opinion I suppose.

Thank you any your teammates for all your hard work. I look forward to spending some money on the released product if it is not free.