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Author Topic: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update  (Read 91185 times)

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Offline kreciu

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #209 from previous page: January 02, 2018, 09:52:49 PM »
I would rather see work progress on AmigaOS4.2 and finished AmigaOS4.1 for looooooooooooooooooooooong  awaited A1222.

How long it takes to make a network driver? 3 years?
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Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #210 on: January 02, 2018, 10:21:00 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;834628
I would rather see work progress on AmigaOS4.2 and finished AmigaOS4.1 for looooooooooooooooooooooong  awaited A1222.


Hyperion are all about OS3 now, they don't care much about OS4 anymore :)
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Offline ferrellsl

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #211 on: January 02, 2018, 10:34:26 PM »
Quote from: kolla;834632
Hyperion are all about OS3 now, they don't care much about OS4 anymore :)



They obviously didn't care about OS4 either based on it's current state after 15 years of nothing but band-aid patches to allow it to run on ever increasingly rare and expensive PPC CPUs.

Hyperion's only concern is how to squeeze more cash out of Amiga users....classic and NG.
 

guest11527

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #212 on: January 02, 2018, 10:35:43 PM »
Quote from: kolla;834632
Hyperion are all about OS3 now, they don't care much about OS4 anymore :)

I kind of doubt this, actually. Frankly, I have no insight into the company policy or what the plans with 4.x are.
 

guest21274

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #213 on: January 03, 2018, 02:23:21 AM »
This is the best thread I've seen in ages.  Please keep posting more about Amiga OS development.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #214 on: January 03, 2018, 11:28:47 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;834635
Frankly, I have no insight into the company policy or what the plans with 4.x are.


Neither do anyone else, apparently.
And from that one can conclude that not much is really going on.
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Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #215 on: January 03, 2018, 11:33:28 AM »
In my view, and this is both for OS3 and OS4, it would be better to decouple the various OS elements and let individual developers work on their components individually, without too much coordinated "upper management". Components should be individually replaceable anyways.
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A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
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CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
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Offline gregthecanuck

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #216 on: January 03, 2018, 01:25:51 PM »
Hey guys, a question on IDE device. There is a discussion on the Apollo IRC/forums on the poor IDE performance with modern flash drives. Any thoughts on this? Maybe an updated IDE device?

I have patched in the basics of the discussion below. Thanks and have a great day!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with AMIGA OS IDE is the following:

The old AMIGA OS SCSI /IDE device does "split" any access into 512 byte transfers.

So if the file system says  PLEASE LOAD 64 KB then the SCSI DEVICE will devide this into 128 individual LOAD commands each doing 512 Byte. This works but it lower the possible performance more a problem is WRITING as instead doing 1 write of 64 KB the existing SCSI device will split this into 128 writes each being 512 byte.

Modern flash devices do not support 512 byte block internally. They have internally bigger block - e.g. 4 KB.

To support 512 byte writes the flash device will internally read the 4 KB block / erase it / alter the 512 Byte into it / and the write it back to the flash device.

This means this splitting into miriads of 512 byte writes - is really bad for todays CF/SDD/ SDcard flash drives. This is all known.

This problem is known and was also reported to Hyperion 2 years ago.
 

guest11527

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #217 on: January 03, 2018, 02:57:53 PM »
Quote from: gregthecanuck;834657
Hey guys, a question on IDE device. There is a discussion on the Apollo IRC/forums on the poor IDE performance with modern flash drives. Any thoughts on this? Maybe an updated IDE device?

What we currently have is a slightly reworked version of the scsi.device which supports natively LBA48 bit transfers, TD64, does not have the MaxTransfer bug and does not return nonsense-results if requesting a non-zero LUN, it also lacks a "division by zero" crash for some devices. Plus probably a couple of other fixes I forgot.

However, there is currently no man-power to rework the low-level part of the block transfer. The only difference between eight 512 byte transfers in row and a 4096 block transfer is in the low-level signalling of the IDE transfer, so the benefit of larger block transfers is not clear at all. The scsi device, if transfering 8 blocks in a row, already uses a block-transfer command for IDE - but this already holds for the V40 version out in the wild.

If you want to avoid the additional wear of flash devices, I would recommend to use the FFS with 8 BlocksPerSector, which is - up to some low-level IDE transfer details - identical to the 4096 byte transfer.
 

Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #218 on: January 03, 2018, 03:39:58 PM »
Quote from: Gulliver;834620
@Thomas Richter
@olsen

A journaling filesystem woulld certainly improve reliability.

But why not better kill more birds with one stone?

A versioning filesystem would be a much better overall solution, because not only it would allow the user to roll back to previous versions of files in case of system corruption, but it also means that if the filesystem does the work twice (comitting to disk), you at least do the job completely and not halfway like in a journaled filesystem, and also keep the benefit of having an older backup automatically.

The drawback, is of course, increased disk space usage, but is that really a problem in an Amiga system where files are really small in size and when storage media keeps getting bigger each day? And of course, you can also provide some algorithm for garbage collection when the amount of backup exceeds certain amount to free some space.


I don't quite see this yet. There is not a lot of wiggling room within the constraints the FFS on-disk data structures impose upon you. With a log of changes growing as write operations take place, you will have to deal more and more with managing disk space. This is where this file system design is really weak. There are no data structures to assist making optimal storage allocations under certain constraints (e.g. allocate closest to the tail end of the file, allocate closest to the file header block, pick the largest consecutive chunk of free space, etc.). As far as the FFS is concerned, the storage space is broken down into two big sets of almost identical size with no block preferable to the other.

If I remember correctly how log-structured file systems work, I can see how they are more attractive for use with SSDs. You rarely rewrite anything, if at all. The downside is that you have to deal with accessing the versions (through the existing file system API? we can't conveniently upgrade dos.library), representing the available storage space (minus the versioned data which could be reclaimed) and with scrubbing the log. You have to have all three, and each of these is quite challenging to implement.

By comparison, journaling with write-ahead logging would be much simpler to implement. It could be integrated into the metadata block access operations and the remainder of the file system, its APIs and data structures would remain unchanged.

I'd rather prefer to tinker with something that I understand up to a point, and which is extensible, than having to invent a big bag of new stuff, all of which would need a lot more testing just to make sure that it works as intended, including how it deals with defects.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #219 on: January 03, 2018, 05:00:13 PM »
I think it's funny that Gunnar complains about old scsi.device, shouldn't he be more concerned with getting the SD card device driver of the Vampire cards working properly? Anyways, nothing stops his team of brilliant engineers from doing their own version of scsi.device for the Vampire cards.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 05:04:19 PM by kolla »
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A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
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Offline Gulliver

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #220 on: January 03, 2018, 05:51:25 PM »
@olsen

It is true, a journaled filesystem is much more straightforward in its design and much easier to implement, besides, it doesnt require a change in the API. Whilst a log or versioning filesystem would be great, I understand the amount of challenge it would represent in an Amiga enviroment is well into the realm of uncharted territory.

Sometimes it is better to just do what you know best. :)
 

Offline TrashyMG

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #221 on: January 03, 2018, 05:54:21 PM »
Quote from: kolla;834668
I think it's funny that Gunnar complains about old scsi.device, shouldn't he be more concerned with getting the SD card device driver of the Vampire cards working properly? Anyways, nothing stops his team of brilliant engineers from doing their own version of scsi.device for the Vampire cards.


I think it's funny you compulsively slam anything the Apollo team does on every Amiga forum you belong to.

And as far as I know the sagasd device driver is working properly.
 

Offline gregthecanuck

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #222 on: January 03, 2018, 10:38:07 PM »
@TrashyyMG

And the request was a generic one. This affects all users with solid-state drives.
 

Offline gregthecanuck

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #223 on: January 03, 2018, 10:39:51 PM »
@Thomas Richter

I understand about man-power.

Please consider this for future enhancements as it does affect all users with solid-state drives (excessive wear, low performance).

Thanks
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #224 on: January 04, 2018, 06:58:10 AM »
Quote from: TrashyMG;834672

And as far as I know the sagasd device driver is working properly.


Except that it's slow, unreliable and you cannot boot from it. Yes, I suppose that passes as "properly" :)

Glad you find entertainment value in my Apollo Core slamming.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
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MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
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