News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License

[Chucky]

Hmm still dont get your point. In that case wouldnt a 060 be the same? not much software is tuned for 060 either. Mostly a couple of demos and some datatypes..

You still argue in a way that i think you think the Apollo core is only AMMX and 64bit instructions.. and when not using that it it pointless???

If it runs 040 code faster then a real 68040 or 060 code faster then a 68060 is that so bad?
It has every instruction from the 68k motorola family included in the core. (Except TAS2 and MMU)

"couple demos"  there is a LOT of 060 demos..  and for me  that is what I use my Amiga for.... (except coding on DiagROM )

the 080 still lacks FPU!..  when I bought my Vampire I read a promise about AGA and FPU..    what I understand.  we will get AGA and a PARTIAL FPU. as there is no room for the fpu..  (but room for crap.. ie stuff that never will be used.  instead of that real fpu....)

and no mmu..  and programmers needs mmu..

so..  a crippled cpu. that behaves more lika a buggy emulator (NO!  I know FPGA is not emulation..  it BEHAVES like it!)


what do YOU guys use your beloved Amigas for?   be HONEST now..
I would guess:  games, demos and mostly just..  fiddeling with it..
production use?  web?  nah!

[UberFreak]

I bought an 060 card some years back just to watch demos, as thats my main interest with "retro" machines.

But guess what?
Most of the AGA/060 demos in recent years seem to be targeting overclocked 060 or WinUAE.
I watch the stream from Revision every year, then I run the demos on my Cyberstorm 060 and most of them run like crap compared to the stream.
Later I found out the specs of the compo AGA Amiga, which is overclocked!

So for me, the A1200 version of the Vampire (with full FPU) is great, since I'll be able to enjoy all these demos running smoothly, at half (or less) the price of an 060 card with latest mask CPU that can be overclocked.

[Chucky]

most is aimed for 50MHz..

but I happen to know that the revision compomachine is clocked to 66MHz

my A4000 is clocked at 72..  my demoparty macine is 50MHz (also compomachine on the Edison demoparty here in Sweden)

I have done 100MHz overclocks to some CS MK2 to people as they want.

anyway. 50 is usually the maingoal for most demos anyway.
(elude always runs slower as they refuse to do the needed cheats..  so they "need" the 100MHz one

ofcorse  fastermachine runs the stuff .. faster

[Nickman]

"couple demos"  there is a LOT of 060 demos..  and for me  that is what I use my Amiga for.... (except coding on DiagROM )

060 demos is not that interesting for me so i guess i dont keep track of how many there are.

the 080 still lacks FPU!..  when I bought my Vampire I read a promise about AGA and FPU..    what I understand.  we will get AGA and a PARTIAL FPU. as there is no room for the fpu..  (but room for crap.. ie stuff that never will be used.  instead of that real fpu....)

Then someone lied to you or fooled you. Sorry to hear. For me when i bought it i was clear on that i bought what was available right then. Not something that could be available in the future.

As you are an FPGA expert and know the size of the different components in the core can you please enlighten us about what the "crap" is and how big that is?

SAGA?
AMMX?
64-Bit Support?
Instruction Bonding?
Instruction Fusing?
Big Instruction-Cache?
Big Data-Cache?

and no mmu..  and programmers needs mmu..

Im guessing DiagRom would have been impossible for you to do without an MMU?

so..  a crippled cpu. that behaves more lika a buggy emulator (NO!  I know FPGA is not emulation..  it BEHAVES like it!)
what do YOU guys use your beloved Amigas for? be HONEST now..
I would guess:  games, demos and mostly just..  fiddeling with it..
production use?  web?  nah!

Playing some games, listening to mods, looking at demos, Painting in DPaint, Configuring my WB to look like i want it, showing it of to friends and family and my daughter.

[kolla]

So I can fit your card in a500 or a600 ? You are comparing apples and oranges.... Or you are just a bit slow ?

Lovely excuse this.

So were all the vampirized A500 and A600 systems you speak of running OS3.9 before their owners downloaded and installed ApolloOS? I suppose all A500 and A600 owners has 020/030 boards already?

[Chucky]

As you are an FPGA expert and know the size of the different components in the core can you please enlighten us about what the "crap" is and how big that is?

SAGA?
AMMX?
64-Bit Support?
Instruction Bonding?
Instruction Fusing?
Big Instruction-Cache?
Big Data-Cache?

no I am no FPGA expert..  but 64bit support etc must take space.. and if they can fit parts of the FPU.  skipping all that bells and whistles  must take space that the rest should fit..

Im guessing DiagRom would have been impossible for you to do without an MMU?

Diagrom is a VERY VERY VERY special thing. as it runs without any OS whatsoever..  as..  it is REMOVED.. there IS no kickstart..  there IS no possability to run that stuff..  without the debugger in UAE it would be more or less impossible to do surtain things..  

Playing some games, listening to mods, looking at demos, Painting in DPaint, Configuring my WB to look like i want it, showing it of to friends and family and my daughter.

yes.. so.. simply: will not use AMMX etc etc you either...
as dpaint etc does not use it..  and as sources most likly are gone: will never use it.

so putting alot of effort AND FPGA space for.. "nothing"

[kolla]

You are doing it again. I take the freedom to correct your statement: your template does not work on your Vampire having an outdated core.

I use "gold 2.5", is that outdated too?

[kolla]

But sorry. NO  I guess the 080 will be as standard as the PPC..

some few datatypes etc.  some small programs. and MAYBE a few demos.  but that's it

Datatypes supporting AMMX should already have been here by now, one would think.

And that is the biggest problem - independent development with Apollo Core is tricky, to get any knowledge you essentially have to sign a social contract with "the team", something most developers are not keen on doing, having seen how many have tried alreadt and gotten the burn.

MorphOS to a degree suffered from the same for a period, but at least documentation, toolkits, and a vast number of *software developers* (not hardware engineers) were available.

[IanP]

...yes.. so.. simply: will not use AMMX etc etc you either...
as dpaint etc does not use it..  and as sources most likly are gone: will never use it.

so putting alot of effort AND FPGA space for.. "nothing"

Electronic Arts released the source code for version 1 so they probably do have the other source code archived.

DPaint is not developed anymore AFAIK  but the DPaint inspired GrafX2 was very recently ported to Amiga 68k and that uses SDL. I believe SDL has or is being optimised for the 68080.

[kolla]

Then someone lied to you or fooled you.

And that might very well have been the official wiki faq. I pointed out several times that it was incorrect, and it was changed several times too, but always leaving the impression that *some* FPU was right around the corner, even at times when Gunnar expressed on IRC that he was fed up and rather saw no FPU core on V2 at all.

[Chucky]

Electronic Arts released the source code for version 1 so they probably do have the other source code archived.

DPaint is not developed anymore AFAIK  but the DPaint inspired GrafX2 was very recently ported to Amiga 68k and that uses SDL. I believe SDL has or is being optimised for the 68080.

Or they just randomly found that source and.  heck we release this..

btw what C compiler supports the apollo-stuff?

[Chucky]

And that might very well have been the official wiki faq. I pointed out several times that it was incorrect, and it was changed several times too, but always leaving the impression that *some* FPU was right around the corner, even at times when Gunnar expressed on IRC that he was fed up and rather saw no FPU core on V2 at all.

yes    an as it changed..  well.  I lost trust.  but OK  gunnar now say: you buy it as it IS..  so true..
as it IS now is: no fpu, no MMU (and NO AGA!)  (YES I was at A32  I saw it working. but it is not a release.. so "as it is" for us.....

[Chucky]

Anyway I lovethis:  

- "Vampire is most compatble"
-- "Ehh this does not work"
- "you are doing it wrong!!!" (when it shuld be: "oh damn. we have an issue here"
- "It is most compatible"


so even if you present incompabilities...  there is deniers...

and my point is:  with every change:  you introduce NEW ways of being incompatible..

[Niding]

And that might very well have been the official wiki faq. I pointed out several times that it was incorrect, and it was changed several times too, but always leaving the impression that *some* FPU was right around the corner, even at times when Gunnar expressed on IRC that he was fed up and rather saw no FPU core on V2 at all.

Well, Im sure you know that Gunnar and the team got a roadmap of sorts they follow, but IF someone steps up and offer real assistance for a certain aspect, they will help out/tweak their roadmap.

Jari decided to do the SoftFPU, which set him apart from most of us; instead of just talking/posting on forums, he decided to DO something/code.
This spurred the team to help him, effectively Jari convinced them to change their roadmap cause he put REAL effort into enhancing the Apollo/Vampire expirience.

If YOU had done the same, Im sure they would reconsider/tweak their focus, but we that offer nothing but words cant expect them to upend their direction.

As for Chucky; You realise that the SoftFPU isnt a real problem IF Gunnar/team finds enough space on the V2 for the performance critical aspects to put on HardFPU. Gunnar did say to effect "dont count on HardFPU on v2, currently its internal build. Hopefully it pans out" etc. Im paraphrasing tho. The performance increase of Kioea is evidence of the improvements.

Why you seems to consciously ignore this aspect is puzzeling to me. Britelites comments makes sense to me. He is concerned with the POTENTIAL issues running routines on a real 060 vs 080. Thats a fair point, but since its Work In Progress those potential compability issues might be adressed.

[OlafS3]

Anyway I lovethis:  

- "Vampire is most compatble"
-- "Ehh this does not work"
- "you are doing it wrong!!!" (when it shuld be: "oh damn. we have an issue here"
- "It is most compatible"


so even if you present incompabilities...  there is deniers...

and my point is:  with every change:  you introduce NEW ways of being incompatible..

then it is. People decide if they want to spend their money on this "incompatible" platform and up to now most people are very happy with it (with few exceptions of course). Everybody who is not happy with it can sell it again with no losses, I assume that need is above supply at the moment. Keeping it and constantly moaning is strange to me, even more so if you do not own it and not interested to buy it but still moaning. Guys, search for another constructive hobby please. It is boring...

[kolla]

Jari decided to do the SoftFPU, which set him apart from most of us; instead of just talking/posting on forums, he decided to DO something/code.

And alb42? Did he not code?

I don't contribute code to closed source projects in general, and certainly not to a project that has the intention of hijacking this platform hardware wise.