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Offline Chucky

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2017, 10:44:44 AM »
ANYWAY!  I will stop here..

I will do my part.   I got mail etc asking if I am interested of this deal for my 3660 project and.  well   (tipping me of it.. )  and.  NO.

if you can solder: you can do a 060 for your bigbox Amiga for aprox 190eur. not the fastest.  actuallyt the slowest.. :)   but it works-  and stuff is happening.

I know that I need to add memory (and a ROM disabling that damn FPU at boot), remove old components and replace with CLPD etc.   and I am NOT negative as ths "competes" with the 3660.  actually I would glad if I just could sit down and relax if someone else did it, but thinking like that: nothing happens.

This thread just proved what I suspected. but I do wish them good luck.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2017, 11:29:38 AM »
Quote from: Chucky;832792

At a1k I notice comments about FPU and MMU.  there IS demand.  and so far we users.. do NOT have FPU  and Gunnar really showed that he is NOT interested in implementing a MMU (or.-. MPU!) compatible to older software as his is SOO much better.  and it might be right..  still people asks for it. WANTING to do new software.  still "no.  my stuff is much better"


With regards to FPU; Upgrade your core to 2.7 WHEN it is released, and then pass judgement on the FPU implimentation. If you as a coder (or organizer) have spesific compiler/development issues with regards to the FPU internals, then listing spesific issues would be great.

With regards to MMU; the roadmap forward for MMU implimentation isnt clear to be honest. I remember when there where a big discussion regarding lack of FPU several months back. Gunnar eventually got tired of all the bickering from us (myself included), and just said "No FPU for you!" etc. Obviously he just kicked sands in our eyes cause we had the patience of children, not really accepting that WORK IN PROGRESS takes time. I see on ADA forum that the democoders say "Ive been working on this on and off for x months" etc. Designing a core probably takes time too, just saying.

So just cause MMU as Enforcer requires it is available or offered in Betatesting demostration, doesnt mean it wont surface eventually, just like the FPU did.

So I defintly would like to hear your detailed mapping of whats needed to be tweaked for the demoscene with regards to the FPU, ONCE Gold 2.7 with SoftFPU (with currently unknown level of hardFPU for V2).
 

Offline Chucky

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2017, 11:42:06 AM »
Speaking as a demosceener:

WHY do we do demos on our amigas?  well we love to show off what we can do with the limits. you know. poor chipmembus, bitmapmode etc etc.

we love to show off what we can do theree.  if suddnely the chipmem is a 100+MHz bus etc.  nah.   then I can use a PC and do shadercoding.  there is no  more "fun" into that.

same with the CPU..   a demoplatform is 2 different machines todaty mainly:

1. OCS machine, meaning 7MHz 68000 with 512k chip and 512k fakefast (not even fastmem)
2. AGA machine (14MHz chipmem, 32bit) 2MB Chip, and 50MHz 68060 with FPU.  50MHz  and aprox 64MB of RAM.

so it must deliver a exact version of ANY of this to be accepted.   more speed can be fun.  but the FPU must perform exactly MMU is more used to figure out bugs when developing utils.. not so much for demos.


but.  vampire and 080 needs utils to be used.  so that's why the MMU is important for the very few doing the actual coding.

so in short:  demoscerns WANT their restrictions, we do not care about AMMX and stuff..

for utils using all the new stuff to get new software (like browswers)  programmers needs debuggingtools they are used to have.
 

Offline grond

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2017, 11:45:00 AM »
Quote from: Chucky;832792
well  I still see people having that same issues that I had.  so those incompabilities is not solved yet.
 If they really appear on the newest core release, then you should report those issues. And, if you want to make a good job while you are at it, try whether the same problem appears if you run the suspect code on WinUAE with 040-jit setting. This is because most reported incompatibility are just coding bugs where the software cannot deal with a CPU that is way faster than the programmer expected. The highest-ranking probability of such coding flaws is where coders start a blitjob without checking whether the preceding one has been finished already because they assume that whatever the CPU is doing in parallel will keep the CPU busy long enough for the preceding blitjob do end in time.  
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and I constantly hear that it is "MORE COMPATIBLE" when it doesn't behave like any 68k.  so how can it be more compatible?

for me Compatible = Behaves like THAT product..

So either the Apollo-Team is stupid or lying. Hey, wait, there is a third option: you are applying a definition of the word "compatible" that obviously cannot be the same one as used by the Apollo-Team. Obviously it would be impossible to behave more like something than the very thing itself, right? So if you keep pondering this for a second it should become apparent that it means that it does not behave like an 060 because it does not bork when it sees e.g. a 64bit multiplication. It does better, it just executes the instruction.    
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Amnyway. you are right. 060 cards is getting insanly expensive.. and I am doing whatever I can to solve that.  but the thing is. the vampirecards are soon approaching that very same pricetag...
 How is 300EUR approaching anything? Yes, other versions with more capable hardware might cost more. Do you think this "trend" deducted from two distinct points will continue if alternative 080-based accelerators will hit the market?  
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Anyway my point is still:  IF they want people to use their core. DO listen to more people.
 There is no Vampire that has not been sold. And, frankly put, the input to be expected is none that we couldn't come up with ourselves: make it compatible. Sure, but this takes work and work takes time. It is as simple as that. In the a1k thread Gunnar pointed out that he can do the compatible MMU now but this would mean changing priorities. If somebody believes that more money can be made with an accelerator that has a compatible MMU, this somebody would have to fund the development. Right now the AGA reimplementation seems to be much more important because there are many times as many people wanting a stand-alone Amiga or an AGA upgrade for their OCS/ECS hardware than people that cannot do without the legacy-compatible MMU.  
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I am very often to demoparties etc. I talk to coders etc  and I still have to fine ONE democoder remotly interested in doing something.  as it breaks the bonderys of why they even care about the amiga.

Why would anyone want to cater a market with a new CPU that doesn't want to have any restrictions removed? I understand that some people find it interesting to code for an unexpanded A500. At the upper end of this pretty much the same people find it interesting to code for an A1200 with an 060/50. Well, so be it. Even availability of 75 MHz 060 didn't change the latter. This clearly isn't the market for a new CPU.
 

Offline gregthecanuck

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2017, 11:51:12 AM »
Hey Chucky -

Well in fact the demo platforms have 3 configurations:

1. OCS machine  (7MHz), etc...
2. AGA machine (14MHz), etc...
3. AGA 060 machine (50MHz), etc...

And now the Vampire opens up the possibility of a fourth level:

4. SAGA 080 machine (100MHz) etc...

I would like to think that some (definitely not all) demo coders would be interested in taking their demos to the next level. Compared to multi-GHz PCs this is still a very restricted platform and does pose its own challenges and also opens up new possibilities.

But let's just see how things evolve over the next few months after V2.7 is out.

Cheers!
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2017, 11:53:35 AM »
Oh I get what you are saying from that point of view :)

Im a big fan of C64 demos, and its amazing what they can do with that limited hardware.
Or more recently Altair - Zener Drive https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei3IqD_zSkk

But take Kioea by Mad Wizards. A while back it was uploaded by ShK using the WIP core in July. It worked, but was laggy/buggy, and could make you cry watching it butcher that amazing demo; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Ye2c5K8GI

Now fast forward to October/November and it has improved massivly;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtCWfmnYOsk

Its really nice and smooth!

Then take the latest masterpiece from Haujobb and Ghostown - Beam Riders; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJsZXgSaELE

It requires 1260, and it will just flip its middlefinger to my Blizzard 1230 III.
I could run in WinUAE or buy 1260 (or can I without selling my liver?).
Enter Vampire.

As for the future development for the demoscene vs Vampire; You could still just develop within the constraints of 1260 code, not utilizing the extra features of the 68080, but get a bigger audience that aint watching 99% of the demos in Youtube (Of which Im one sadly).

So there doesnt need to be a "either or" situation. You can still limit yourself.

But again, I do understand the charm of platform constraints and challenging yourself.
 

Offline Chucky

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2017, 11:56:21 AM »
well yes. mainly it is ocs or expanded A1200. long time since I saw anything "stock A1200" (too sad.. I like that platform)

but no.  Vampire 080 will not be a demosceneplatform when I talk to democoders:  they are simply not interested.. as then they could do shaders on a PC instead.. there is no sport in it. and it is what it is all about: it must be HARD to do.

there might be SOME 080 demo. as there was some PPC ones. but all will be as wild-entrys I guess.

actually  more and more are dumping the 060 awell.  it seems that OCS is the platform they more aim for.  they want TIGHTER limits.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2017, 11:59:04 AM »
Quote from: Chucky;832801
well yes. mainly it is ocs or expanded A1200. long time since I saw anything "stock A1200" (too sad.. I like that platform)

but no.  Vampire 080 will not be a demosceneplatform when I talk to democoders:  they are simply not interested.. as then they could do shaders on a PC instead.. there is no sport in it. and it is what it is all about: it must be HARD to do.

there might be SOME 080 demo. as there was some PPC ones. but all will be as wild-entrys I guess.

actually  more and more are dumping the 060 awell.  it seems that OCS is the platform they more aim for.  they want TIGHTER limits.


Wanting to limit themselves, and see how far they can push any given hardware is a valid argument for sure.
Like some that do Textmode, DOS demos with software rendering etc on PC.
 

Offline Britelite

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2017, 12:02:05 PM »
Quote from: Niding;832800
As for the future development for the demoscene vs Vampire; You could still just develop within the constraints of 1260 code, not utilizing the extra features of the 68080, but get a bigger audience that aint watching 99% of the demos in Youtube (Of which Im one sadly).

The problem being that you would still need a real 060-card to make sure the demo actually works correctly on the target platform. This is pretty much why I dislike the added crap, as I'd rather see something replicating the 060 as close as possible.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2017, 12:07:22 PM »
Im sure you are not intrested to spend too much time trying to educate a code illiterate guy like me on this topic, but;

Does/might the added crap throw off timings and functionalities of current 680x0, or is it cause its an unknown variable as to how a routine will actually run?
 

Offline Crom00

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2017, 12:10:43 PM »
Hi Guys... regarding OS 3.9 not working with Vampire... or not being compatible... Installing OS3.9 was the first thing I installed on Vampire and I got it working, and I am by no means an expert.
 

Offline Britelite

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2017, 12:13:59 PM »
Quote from: Niding;832804
Does/might the added crap throw off timings and functionalities of current 680x0, or is it cause its an unknown variable as to how a routine will actually run?

There's always the risk of something not working as it should. I mean, even if I do most of my development using WinUAE, and pretty much know it emulates everything pretty good, I still do a lot of checking on actual hardware just to make sure.

But my main gripe is maybe more with the perceived focus of this whole project, where added features seem to be more important than true compatibility (with the 68060).
 

Offline Chucky

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2017, 12:14:33 PM »
Quote from: Crom00;832805
Hi Guys... regarding OS 3.9 not working with Vampire... or not being compatible... Installing OS3.9 was the first thing I installed on Vampire and I got it working, and I am by no means an expert.


try that will all boingbags etc...
my template works on ALL amigas  68000 (ok except the few libraries requiring 020.. but it BOOTS if you have enough memory)  to 68060   EC or LC or RC.   it works.   and the 3.9 libs that are 020 (2 I think?) is the only CPU optimised software in this template.. (I have then anotyher dir to install cpu dependent versions if wanted...

but this template does NOT work on vampires..
 

Offline Niding

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Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2017, 12:21:52 PM »
Quote from: Britelite;832806
There's always the risk of something not working as it should. I mean, even if I do most of my development using WinUAE, and pretty much know it emulates everything pretty good, I still do a lot of checking on actual hardware just to make sure.

But my main gripe is maybe more with the perceived focus of this whole project, where added features seem to be more important than true compatibility (with the 68060).


Fair enuff.

But the compability seems to be improving, based on the evolvement of how it runs Kioea for example. Hence Work In Progress :)
Seems to me that both compability and new "crappy" features is being tweaked as time passes. Ofcourse less "crap" would have increased the pace for the evolving of the compability, but it seems to me that they have found a  good balance, espesially after Jari Eskelinen decided to teach himself Assembly thru working on FEMU.
And since Jari decided to put effort into FPU related code, the Apollo Team diverted their attention to assist him, which includes HardFPU for v2, and it looks like full HardFPU on v4.
 

Offline Crom00

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2017, 12:23:45 PM »
Quote from: Crom00;832805
Hi Guys... regarding OS 3.9 not working with Vampire... or not being compatible... Installing OS3.9 was the first thing I installed on Vampire and I got it working, and I am by no means an expert.


One thing I have noticed with the Vampire scene is that there is a big backlash by collectors of old hardware, they get really defensive about their 68060's and old gear. I used to have an 060, ppc card. The vampire trounces it, and a Vampire accelerator offers better value for dollar.

There are enough non haters to produce a Terrible Fire style 080 card that would be a nice addition to the range of Amiga classic stuff out there...

For those sitting on the fence the FPU stuff is a work in progress but most anything I ever ran on my 060 capable of running integer works with Vampire.

By releasing a free version I reckon a 68080 will become a standard. No one else is really producing, lots of talk and multi-decade projects with slow progress. Perhaps this development will inspire growth.
 

Offline Chucky

Re: News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License
« Reply #74 from previous page: November 08, 2017, 12:27:50 PM »
noone producing?? I see a lot of stuff happning with hardware..