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AuthorTopic: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor  (Read 6302 times)

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Offline dirkzwager

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2017, 06:33:20 PM »
The way i understand it was 400-500 euro for the card.
Like the amiga One X 5000 It is 1699 euro for the card and 2099 euro for complete systeem .
Of corse i hope for a cheap price

But we wil se ... Time wil bring ...
Amiga 4000/040 with picasso 4, Amiga 500 with ACA 500 plus, Powerbook G4 17* 1,67 Mhz and MorphOs,
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 07:14:10 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;831821
Of course it can be used.
Hardware acceleration isn't an absolute requirement.
And some of the PCI-E cards that are supported under OS4.1 can be had quite cheaply.

I can find Radeon HD 6450 cards on eBay right now starting at $13.95, which would allow dual OS4/Linux support.
And Radeon HD 7450 cards start at $15.

Personally, in half height cards, I rather like the HD 8490 or the R5 230 (both use the same core).

And R7 240 cards aren't that expensive.

BTW - I had thought the $500 price point was for the board only, if its for the entire system, all the better.

I wonder what HW acceleration mean? OpenGL?

I'm not concerned about price of GPU that can be used as a someone who is considering $500 motherboard.

If (when) I will get A1220 (or something similar) I don't intend to play games on this computer. MY intent is to use it for AmigaOS4.1 and software (web browser primary + everything that comes with it), instead of emulation.

So, if I could use COMFORTABLY AmigaOS4.1 + browser that will make very nice tiny computer (I have few "towers" in my house already) in one of those tiny ITX cases. Like on PC, I have ancient intel mobo (about 8 year old) and Win 10 run on integrated GPU wonderfully (GMA X4500) (4k don't play well using youtube ;) ).

We will see.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 07:17:39 PM by kreciu »
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IBM PC :)
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2017, 10:03:33 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;831828
I wonder what HW acceleration mean? OpenGL?

I'm not concerned about price of GPU that can be used as a someone who is considering $500 motherboard.

If (when) I will get A1220 (or something similar) I don't intend to play games on this computer. MY intent is to use it for AmigaOS4.1 and software (web browser primary + everything that comes with it), instead of emulation.

So, if I could use COMFORTABLY AmigaOS4.1 + browser that will make very nice tiny computer (I have few "towers" in my house already) in one of those tiny ITX cases. Like on PC, I have ancient intel mobo (about 8 year old) and Win 10 run on integrated GPU wonderfully (GMA X4500) (4k don't play well using youtube ;) ).

We will see.


Yeah, when they refer to acceleration they are talking about 2D and 3D operations, some of which can be accessed by OpenGL routines, but also by Warp3D (in its various incarnations).
Actually, all video cards after the R500 series only have 3D primitives, so any 2D library calls are generally rendered using 3D functions (on later cards).

While the integrated graphics from the P1022 will no doubt be more primitive than the Intel mobo you mentioned, they could still be used for basic software.

 But you're right, the price of the addition of a video card is really minor.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2017, 10:27:44 PM »
Is there the list of Radeon GPUs that are supported by AmigaOS4.1 that could be used?
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
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Offline Rob

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2017, 11:05:09 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;831800
If this gpu is "useless" and can't run even AmigaOS in reasonable way I would not bother in including it at all in this motherboard, but as usual not my choice to make.

The P1022 was chosen because it had audio hardware built into the chip which allows them to reduce complexity and cost.  The video processor just happened to be there as well.

It's not a good fit for OS4 unless you want to use the chroma keying feature for some industrial or commercial application so I don't even expect that a driver will be made for OS4 since.

The Radeon R5 230 seems to be supported now and is in the same price range as an HD6450 so I'd recommend the 230  which will allow the option of 3D acceleration if you later find a need for it.  I believe blender is the only serious application that currently supported 3D hardware.

Edit.

A list of supported cards is available here.

http://hdrlab.org.nz/projects/amiga-os-4-projects/radeonhd-driver/radeonhd-driver-hardware-compatibility/

Product codes for the specific cards are shown in brackets.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 11:08:19 PM by Rob »
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2017, 11:21:34 PM »
I'm looking at some passively cooled GPU, and I hope I can find nice passive cooler for CPU.

I also hope that fpu issue will be solved.

I know this will sound strange, but are this motherboards REALLY designed from scratch for A-EON?

Is there any indication/rumors A1222 can be delivered as a whole "system" (case, GPU?)?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 11:38:39 PM by kreciu »
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2017, 01:18:31 AM »
Quote from: kreciu;831867
I'm looking at some passively cooled GPU, and I hope I can find nice passive cooler for CPU.

I also hope that fpu issue will be solved.

I know this will sound strange, but are this motherboards REALLY designed from scratch for A-EON?

Is there any indication/rumors A1222 can be delivered as a whole "system" (case, GPU?)?


A passively cooled video card is easy enough to find, and will work as long as your case ventilation is adequate.
A passive cpu cooler is a little trickier.
Its not a particularly hot SOC, and a large heatsink would help, but I'd just add a large, low speed fan to cut noise.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2017, 08:47:17 PM »
So, after Trevor presentation not much new we need to wait for network and sound drivers and release date depend on those two. There is also an issue of fpu that is not solved yet.

We are going to get Radeon memory access (?) and new driver for Radeon RX.

He also mentioned that price will be around 400 Euro (or less/around), not bad.

What is new, we have to WAIT.

"Wait if over" - never :)
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Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline dirkzwager

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2017, 12:47:16 PM »
I hope that it is a madder of months. Not years. With the x5000 it is month for the ethernet driver update. Perhaps it is the same problem.
Price from 400%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364; super. Perhaps it is without os4, i did read On the site. But for 29%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364; That is not the big problem. Time, time, time.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:03:07 PM by dirkzwager »
Amiga 4000/040 with picasso 4, Amiga 500 with ACA 500 plus, Powerbook G4 17* 1,67 Mhz and MorphOs,
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2017, 02:52:46 PM »
When I listen about laptop project based on Tabor UT sounded that "Tabor" has everything to become DIY laptop. That would mean that integrated gpu is not that tragic.
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PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
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Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
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IBM PC :)
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2017, 03:12:48 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;832046
When I listen about laptop project based on Tabor UT sounded that "Tabor" has everything to become DIY laptop. That would mean that integrated gpu is not that tragic.

a "laptop" with a 5 cm high body would be a laughing stock pretty everywhere in the open, not to mention it would be a "laptop" you would have to carry a car battery with for a power supply, since no power management. judging by the photos there is no elegant and practicable way around it. it will always remain bulky diy chest. instead one could simply put it in a slim itx case or whatever it fits in and treat it as portable enough.
 

Offline zylesea

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2017, 05:19:26 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;832048
a "laptop" with a 5 cm high body would be a laughing stock pretty everywhere in the open, not to mention it would be a "laptop" you would have to carry a car battery with for a power supply, since no power management. judging by the photos there is no elegant and practicable way around it. it will always remain bulky diy chest. instead one could simply put it in a slim itx case or whatever it fits in and treat it as portable enough.


I also had the impression that this DIY project is rather on the niveau of the turning of the millenium. Of course it's difficult to make such a thing, but the gap between a professional product and this DIY laptop seems to be rather huge. Anyway, for the fun and hobby...

But a real solution would be easy: Simply support existig professional laptops (like MorphOS and AROS do).

Offline kreciu

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2017, 12:57:28 AM »
The more I listen about all of this "projects" (and complete lack of direction) there more I'm convinced I'm going to keep my Amiga Classic and EMULATE AmigaOS4.1. Maybe I will set up separate machine for it based on some cheap i5 itx mobo  and run it under linux/uea thingy... basically "ALICE" as a desktop.

Who selected PPC without fpu, that now it becomes limitation? Why Sam is not produced anymore? Do we really need multiple motherboards so dev. need to make "Ethernet/sound drivers" again and again?

I listened to one talk yesterday night about AmigaOS4.1 and emulation. Conclusion was that it is NOT about hardware it is about AmigaOS4.1 (3.x). Great, but why to even bother with emulation? Make it PC (or old mac) compatible so I don't have to emulate it anymore.

My excitement (at the moment) about A1222 = zero.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 01:02:54 AM by kreciu »
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2017, 03:42:13 AM »
Quote from: kreciu;832080
The more I listen about all of this "projects" (and complete lack of direction) there more I'm convinced I'm going to keep my Amiga Classic and EMULATE AmigaOS4.1. Maybe I will set up separate machine for it based on some cheap i5 itx mobo  and run it under linux/uea thingy... basically "ALICE" as a desktop.

Who selected PPC without fpu, that now it becomes limitation? Why Sam is not produced anymore? Do we really need multiple motherboards so dev. need to make "Ethernet/sound drivers" again and again?

I listened to one talk yesterday night about AmigaOS4.1 and emulation. Conclusion was that it is NOT about hardware it is about AmigaOS4.1 (3.x). Great, but why to even bother with emulation? Make it PC (or old mac) compatible so I don't have to emulate it anymore.

My excitement (at the moment) about A1222 = zero.

I'm not sure I get it either.
I've sent an inquiry to Acube and gotten zero response.
If they'd made another batch of SAM460 boards I would have bought one.

And I 'sort of' understand the need to recoup your development dollars and the money you've invested in cpus (since Tabor was started before the T10XX cpus were available).
But the lag time developing drivers would have been minimized by a T10XX based design, as those cpus share the same core as the X5000.
And they aren't much more expensive than the P1022 (as well as producing better performance per clock cycle, and having a higher maximum frequency).
Then there's the fpu issue...

I don't know for sure (since the developers haven't said), but I suspect this issue was a large part of the reason for the decision not to support this board under MorphOS.

FPU trapping and emulation? Let's face it, what we are more likely to see are specific recompiles intended just for Tabor.
Which means if you've got more than one OS4 system, you're going to need multiple binaries.
Buy an A.L.I.C.E. laptop, run emulation or own an X1000 or an X5000 AND Tabor and you may need two different binaries (or one larger one with code for both types of FPUs).

I do understand how much more the other e500 cored cpus cost (quite a bit more than the V2), but all this hassle just so that Aeon/Varisys can incorporate a dirt cheap embedded cpu in a board intended to sell for almost $500?

While Tabor will perform better than emulation (because emulation is intentionally limited to legacy PPC hardware), you have to wonder if an emulator designed to simulate a G4 or G5 level processor on an X86/X64 system wouldn't be just as cheap, perform better, and provide a future bridge to an ISA still actively developed.

And you may question why I'd justify paying four times what Tabor will cost for an X5000/40. But the price actually scales out, since the system provides about four times the potential computing power and is probably at least as powerful as what we'd get from a more modern emulation platform.

One thing I'd like to try, under a future X64 fork of MorphOS is a Qemu based emulation of a G4 processor based system.
I feel fairly confident that today X64 hardware could run our legacy PPC OS/software as a process under a modernized SMP enabled Amiga-like OS.

And we have to consider migration eventually, if not to X64, then to an alternative (and as much as I like Power, as its the only compatible ISA, its too expensive and ARM offers no real advantages over X64, unless you're completely focused on compact portable devices).

So we'll have to see  how this all plays out. I'm not sure that the sale of a few hundred e500V2 based boards is really going to help us long term. They aren't really powerful enough, when compared to other alternatives to really justify the price.
Honestly, if you're going to offer Raspberry Pi performance levels, at several times a Raspberry Pi's price, is that really the 'bargain' you think it is?

I'd rather spend the extra money, on an X5000 or even something as exotic as a TalosII board, and get something I know will be reasonably adequate for my use over a few years.

BUT, that's just me. You all do as you will, and we'll have to see how this goes. After all, I can't predict the future. If I could have in the past, we'd all been using Motorola descended cpus and UNIX-like micro kernel OS right now. :hammer:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 03:45:40 AM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline yssing

Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2017, 10:02:38 AM »
Well i was hoping for more..