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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: kreciu on October 11, 2017, 07:11:33 PM

Title: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 11, 2017, 07:11:33 PM
AmiWest is coming and maybe A1222 with it.

I was reading specs and there is written:

HDMI LCD Interface
• 24 bit colour depth
• Support for resolution up to 1280x1024
• HDMI 1.3 support

Is this some sort of integrated GPU?

What kind of Radeon cards will be supported? Radeon HD? There is plenty of them.

BTW. I hope it will come with back plate  (I could not stop myself!).
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: goldfish on October 11, 2017, 11:26:35 PM
hi

Bloody better come with back plate they have had long enough to source a supplier. It has gone very quiet on a1222 news I'm starting to think it's not going to happen.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Spectre660 on October 12, 2017, 12:32:18 AM
Some interesting information indirectly .

http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3847&start=10#p42550
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: CommodoreRock on October 12, 2017, 12:50:07 AM
I certainly hope it will still happen.  I was starting to get that sinking feeling too.  I have been waiting for an affordable modern Amiga since the now cancelled OS4 netbook.  I had no idea there was still any kind of next gen Amiga until I just on a whim decided to search Amiga computers several years ago.  I had. Never used one but I had a 64 then which I use to this day.  My first Amiga would be an A1222 (if you don't count the Minimig I bought back in 2011).

I'm also not fully understanding the images I've seen of the full system.  Can I infer that it's almost like a suitcase with an attched screen, like a big laptop?
That would be really cool.  Is that all for the 400 euros or would that be optional add on?  Lots of questions, but I am stoked for this to finally be an Amiga user.  The SAM systems and X1000 and X5000s look awesome, but I couldn't justify spending that much.  A1222 is priced perfectly.  Hope to hear something official soon.  I'm not an active member, but I've been following the Amiga goings on since about 2010.  Hope this comes soon.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on October 15, 2017, 06:27:33 PM
I hope also for the Tabor. I go to Germany to the amiga 32 messe, last weekend of this month. http://www.amiga32.de/WB.html
The price is not 400 euro for the computer. It is the price for only the motherbord with the cpu. I think complete 800-1000 euro. That is ok for me.
I have save the money.
 I hope the Amigaxone 1222 is there these month or shortly after.
But there is now news about the Tabort of a lange time and i this situation is " now news not good news " , i am afraid.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Spectre660 on October 15, 2017, 07:13:31 PM
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42065&forum=16#804098
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on October 15, 2017, 09:07:48 PM
Quote from: Spectre660;831771
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42065&forum=16#804098



Thanks for the info. The tabor is later, but she wil come. I am happy with that news.
Here a youtube movie with the a1222 at work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA3bTeJcD2c&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Acill on October 15, 2017, 09:25:48 PM
My understanding is the goal for price is $500 range for a complete system. You will still need monitor, keyboard and mouse, but its entire purpose is to get OS4.1 into the hands of as many as they can for a fair price.

I'd bet next week at Amiwest we get some news on this.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: SACC-guy on October 15, 2017, 10:18:26 PM
Update on the A1222! (from Trevors blog)

"It's been a while coming but we hope to present the AmigaOne A1222 at both the AmiWest and Amiga32 shows later this month. Actually, the A1222 has been displayed running Debian PowerPC Linux at numerous Amiga shows over the past two years. The machine also made a sneak appearance in the Amiga family group photo taken at the Amiga30th Anniversary celebrations at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California in 2015. I even had a video of AmigaOS4.1 running on the A1222 playing under Linux on the A1222 at VCF SE 5.0 retro show in Roswell, Georgia in April this year. This time however, the plan is to show AmigaOS 4.1 running on the AmigaOne A1222 in a live public demonstration for the first time. Although there is still some work needed to done on audio and Ethernet drivers before the AmigaOne A1222 can be commercially released, the FPU optimization appears to be progressing well."

Thanks Trevor for that update!!!
AmiWest2017
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: goldfish on October 15, 2017, 10:46:22 PM
Cant wait money is waiting. This is going to be like getting my first A500 all over again... performance looks fine to me..
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 16, 2017, 03:23:09 AM
Quote from: dirkzwager;831775
Thanks for the info. The tabor is later, but she wil come. I am happy with that news.
Here a youtube movie with the a1222 at work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA3bTeJcD2c&feature=youtu.be

It works quite nice. I hope it will be even better when second core will be used be AmigaOS. I really hope price will be "affordable" and we can finally SEE it available.

Quote from: goldfish;831780
Cant wait money is waiting. This is going to be like getting my first A500 all over again... performance looks fine to me..

More like A1200 ;)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: CommodoreRock on October 16, 2017, 03:57:11 AM
My impression too was that the complete system would be around $500 US from what I'd read so far.  I also thought the resolution was. Up to 1080P over HDMI 1.3.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: eliyahu on October 16, 2017, 12:27:15 PM
@CommodoreRock

the A1222 can support any resolution (for the most part) your graphics card can, thanks to the recent versions of the RadeonHD driver from A-EON. the comment about "1280x1024 resolution support" from earlier refers only to the on-board graphics controller, which i wouldn't bother with given its limitations and lack of HW acceleration. it's just a feature of the P1022 itself and is meant for embedded purposes. no one will be using it.

my A1222 is running a 1080p display quite nicely. ;)

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 16, 2017, 12:48:20 PM
I see, that is quite disappointing. I was hoping that integrated gpu could be useful  somehow. It would be nice to have itx motherboard in one of those super tiny cases.

If this gpu is "useless" and can't run even AmigaOS in reasonable way I would not bother in including it at all in this motherboard, but as usual not my choice to make.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on October 16, 2017, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: kreciu;831800
I see, that is quite disappointing. I was hoping that integrated gpu could be useful  somehow. It would be nice to have itx motherboard in one of those super tiny cases.

If this gpu is "useless" and can't run even AmigaOS in reasonable way I would not bother in including it at all in this motherboard, but as usual not my choice to make.

Of course it can be used.
Hardware acceleration isn't an absolute requirement.
And some of the PCI-E cards that are supported under OS4.1 can be had quite cheaply.

I can find Radeon HD 6450 cards on eBay right now starting at $13.95, which would allow dual OS4/Linux support.
And Radeon HD 7450 cards start at $15.

Personally, in half height cards, I rather like the HD 8490 or the R5 230 (both use the same core).

And R7 240 cards aren't that expensive.

BTW - I had thought the $500 price point was for the board only, if its for the entire system, all the better.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on October 16, 2017, 06:33:20 PM
The way i understand it was 400-500 euro for the card.
Like the amiga One X 5000 It is 1699 euro for the card and 2099 euro for complete systeem .
Of corse i hope for a cheap price

But we wil se ... Time wil bring ...
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 16, 2017, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Iggy;831821
Of course it can be used.
Hardware acceleration isn't an absolute requirement.
And some of the PCI-E cards that are supported under OS4.1 can be had quite cheaply.

I can find Radeon HD 6450 cards on eBay right now starting at $13.95, which would allow dual OS4/Linux support.
And Radeon HD 7450 cards start at $15.

Personally, in half height cards, I rather like the HD 8490 or the R5 230 (both use the same core).

And R7 240 cards aren't that expensive.

BTW - I had thought the $500 price point was for the board only, if its for the entire system, all the better.

I wonder what HW acceleration mean? OpenGL?

I'm not concerned about price of GPU that can be used as a someone who is considering $500 motherboard.

If (when) I will get A1220 (or something similar) I don't intend to play games on this computer. MY intent is to use it for AmigaOS4.1 and software (web browser primary + everything that comes with it), instead of emulation.

So, if I could use COMFORTABLY AmigaOS4.1 + browser that will make very nice tiny computer (I have few "towers" in my house already) in one of those tiny ITX cases. Like on PC, I have ancient intel mobo (about 8 year old) and Win 10 run on integrated GPU wonderfully (GMA X4500) (4k don't play well using youtube ;) ).

We will see.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on October 16, 2017, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: kreciu;831828
I wonder what HW acceleration mean? OpenGL?

I'm not concerned about price of GPU that can be used as a someone who is considering $500 motherboard.

If (when) I will get A1220 (or something similar) I don't intend to play games on this computer. MY intent is to use it for AmigaOS4.1 and software (web browser primary + everything that comes with it), instead of emulation.

So, if I could use COMFORTABLY AmigaOS4.1 + browser that will make very nice tiny computer (I have few "towers" in my house already) in one of those tiny ITX cases. Like on PC, I have ancient intel mobo (about 8 year old) and Win 10 run on integrated GPU wonderfully (GMA X4500) (4k don't play well using youtube ;) ).

We will see.


Yeah, when they refer to acceleration they are talking about 2D and 3D operations, some of which can be accessed by OpenGL routines, but also by Warp3D (in its various incarnations).
Actually, all video cards after the R500 series only have 3D primitives, so any 2D library calls are generally rendered using 3D functions (on later cards).

While the integrated graphics from the P1022 will no doubt be more primitive than the Intel mobo you mentioned, they could still be used for basic software.

 But you're right, the price of the addition of a video card is really minor.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 16, 2017, 10:27:44 PM
Is there the list of Radeon GPUs that are supported by AmigaOS4.1 that could be used?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Rob on October 17, 2017, 11:05:09 PM
Quote from: kreciu;831800
If this gpu is "useless" and can't run even AmigaOS in reasonable way I would not bother in including it at all in this motherboard, but as usual not my choice to make.

The P1022 was chosen because it had audio hardware built into the chip which allows them to reduce complexity and cost.  The video processor just happened to be there as well.

It's not a good fit for OS4 unless you want to use the chroma keying feature for some industrial or commercial application so I don't even expect that a driver will be made for OS4 since.

The Radeon R5 230 seems to be supported now and is in the same price range as an HD6450 so I'd recommend the 230  which will allow the option of 3D acceleration if you later find a need for it.  I believe blender is the only serious application that currently supported 3D hardware.

Edit.

A list of supported cards is available here.

http://hdrlab.org.nz/projects/amiga-os-4-projects/radeonhd-driver/radeonhd-driver-hardware-compatibility/

Product codes for the specific cards are shown in brackets.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 17, 2017, 11:21:34 PM
I'm looking at some passively cooled GPU, and I hope I can find nice passive cooler for CPU.

I also hope that fpu issue will be solved.

I know this will sound strange, but are this motherboards REALLY designed from scratch for A-EON?

Is there any indication/rumors A1222 can be delivered as a whole "system" (case, GPU?)?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on October 18, 2017, 01:18:31 AM
Quote from: kreciu;831867
I'm looking at some passively cooled GPU, and I hope I can find nice passive cooler for CPU.

I also hope that fpu issue will be solved.

I know this will sound strange, but are this motherboards REALLY designed from scratch for A-EON?

Is there any indication/rumors A1222 can be delivered as a whole "system" (case, GPU?)?


A passively cooled video card is easy enough to find, and will work as long as your case ventilation is adequate.
A passive cpu cooler is a little trickier.
Its not a particularly hot SOC, and a large heatsink would help, but I'd just add a large, low speed fan to cut noise.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 21, 2017, 08:47:17 PM
So, after Trevor presentation not much new we need to wait for network and sound drivers and release date depend on those two. There is also an issue of fpu that is not solved yet.

We are going to get Radeon memory access (?) and new driver for Radeon RX.

He also mentioned that price will be around 400 Euro (or less/around), not bad.

What is new, we have to WAIT.

"Wait if over" - never :)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on October 22, 2017, 12:47:16 PM
I hope that it is a madder of months. Not years. With the x5000 it is month for the ethernet driver update. Perhaps it is the same problem.
Price from 400%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364; super. Perhaps it is without os4, i did read On the site. But for 29%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364; That is not the big problem. Time, time, time.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 22, 2017, 02:52:46 PM
When I listen about laptop project based on Tabor UT sounded that "Tabor" has everything to become DIY laptop. That would mean that integrated gpu is not that tragic.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: wawrzon on October 22, 2017, 03:12:48 PM
Quote from: kreciu;832046
When I listen about laptop project based on Tabor UT sounded that "Tabor" has everything to become DIY laptop. That would mean that integrated gpu is not that tragic.

a "laptop" with a 5 cm high body would be a laughing stock pretty everywhere in the open, not to mention it would be a "laptop" you would have to carry a car battery with for a power supply, since no power management. judging by the photos there is no elegant and practicable way around it. it will always remain bulky diy chest. instead one could simply put it in a slim itx case or whatever it fits in and treat it as portable enough.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: zylesea on October 22, 2017, 05:19:26 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;832048
a "laptop" with a 5 cm high body would be a laughing stock pretty everywhere in the open, not to mention it would be a "laptop" you would have to carry a car battery with for a power supply, since no power management. judging by the photos there is no elegant and practicable way around it. it will always remain bulky diy chest. instead one could simply put it in a slim itx case or whatever it fits in and treat it as portable enough.


I also had the impression that this DIY project is rather on the niveau of the turning of the millenium. Of course it's difficult to make such a thing, but the gap between a professional product and this DIY laptop seems to be rather huge. Anyway, for the fun and hobby...

But a real solution would be easy: Simply support existig professional laptops (like MorphOS and AROS do).
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 23, 2017, 12:57:28 AM
The more I listen about all of this "projects" (and complete lack of direction) there more I'm convinced I'm going to keep my Amiga Classic and EMULATE AmigaOS4.1. Maybe I will set up separate machine for it based on some cheap i5 itx mobo  and run it under linux/uea thingy... basically "ALICE" as a desktop.

Who selected PPC without fpu, that now it becomes limitation? Why Sam is not produced anymore? Do we really need multiple motherboards so dev. need to make "Ethernet/sound drivers" again and again?

I listened to one talk yesterday night about AmigaOS4.1 and emulation. Conclusion was that it is NOT about hardware it is about AmigaOS4.1 (3.x). Great, but why to even bother with emulation? Make it PC (or old mac) compatible so I don't have to emulate it anymore.

My excitement (at the moment) about A1222 = zero.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on October 23, 2017, 03:42:13 AM
Quote from: kreciu;832080
The more I listen about all of this "projects" (and complete lack of direction) there more I'm convinced I'm going to keep my Amiga Classic and EMULATE AmigaOS4.1. Maybe I will set up separate machine for it based on some cheap i5 itx mobo  and run it under linux/uea thingy... basically "ALICE" as a desktop.

Who selected PPC without fpu, that now it becomes limitation? Why Sam is not produced anymore? Do we really need multiple motherboards so dev. need to make "Ethernet/sound drivers" again and again?

I listened to one talk yesterday night about AmigaOS4.1 and emulation. Conclusion was that it is NOT about hardware it is about AmigaOS4.1 (3.x). Great, but why to even bother with emulation? Make it PC (or old mac) compatible so I don't have to emulate it anymore.

My excitement (at the moment) about A1222 = zero.

I'm not sure I get it either.
I've sent an inquiry to Acube and gotten zero response.
If they'd made another batch of SAM460 boards I would have bought one.

And I 'sort of' understand the need to recoup your development dollars and the money you've invested in cpus (since Tabor was started before the T10XX cpus were available).
But the lag time developing drivers would have been minimized by a T10XX based design, as those cpus share the same core as the X5000.
And they aren't much more expensive than the P1022 (as well as producing better performance per clock cycle, and having a higher maximum frequency).
Then there's the fpu issue...

I don't know for sure (since the developers haven't said), but I suspect this issue was a large part of the reason for the decision not to support this board under MorphOS.

FPU trapping and emulation? Let's face it, what we are more likely to see are specific recompiles intended just for Tabor.
Which means if you've got more than one OS4 system, you're going to need multiple binaries.
Buy an A.L.I.C.E. laptop, run emulation or own an X1000 or an X5000 AND Tabor and you may need two different binaries (or one larger one with code for both types of FPUs).

I do understand how much more the other e500 cored cpus cost (quite a bit more than the V2), but all this hassle just so that Aeon/Varisys can incorporate a dirt cheap embedded cpu in a board intended to sell for almost $500?

While Tabor will perform better than emulation (because emulation is intentionally limited to legacy PPC hardware), you have to wonder if an emulator designed to simulate a G4 or G5 level processor on an X86/X64 system wouldn't be just as cheap, perform better, and provide a future bridge to an ISA still actively developed.

And you may question why I'd justify paying four times what Tabor will cost for an X5000/40. But the price actually scales out, since the system provides about four times the potential computing power and is probably at least as powerful as what we'd get from a more modern emulation platform.

One thing I'd like to try, under a future X64 fork of MorphOS is a Qemu based emulation of a G4 processor based system.
I feel fairly confident that today X64 hardware could run our legacy PPC OS/software as a process under a modernized SMP enabled Amiga-like OS.

And we have to consider migration eventually, if not to X64, then to an alternative (and as much as I like Power, as its the only compatible ISA, its too expensive and ARM offers no real advantages over X64, unless you're completely focused on compact portable devices).

So we'll have to see  how this all plays out. I'm not sure that the sale of a few hundred e500V2 based boards is really going to help us long term. They aren't really powerful enough, when compared to other alternatives to really justify the price.
Honestly, if you're going to offer Raspberry Pi performance levels, at several times a Raspberry Pi's price, is that really the 'bargain' you think it is?

I'd rather spend the extra money, on an X5000 or even something as exotic as a TalosII board, and get something I know will be reasonably adequate for my use over a few years.

BUT, that's just me. You all do as you will, and we'll have to see how this goes. After all, I can't predict the future. If I could have in the past, we'd all been using Motorola descended cpus and UNIX-like micro kernel OS right now. :hammer:
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: yssing on October 23, 2017, 10:02:38 AM
Well i was hoping for more..
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kamelito on October 23, 2017, 12:20:07 PM
Daniel aka Daytona wrote in the youtube message stream that for now he didn't encounter any performance issue with the Tabor while porting Wings and Tower 57
Kamelito
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Niding on October 23, 2017, 12:25:14 PM
@kamelito

Indeed. If there are anyone on the amigascene I will listen to, its Daniel. Ive never encountered anyone that is to such a degree a "cut the bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!" kinda guy. And its very refreshing.

He did comment that he wasnt overly excited by the CPU choice, but at the end of the day he seemed content with the performance of the Tabor.

Maybe he will chime in with his own comments regarding this.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on October 23, 2017, 01:57:29 PM
Quote from: Niding;832092
@kamelito

Indeed. If there are anyone on the amigascene I will listen to, its Daniel. Ive never encountered anyone that is to such a degree a "cut the bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!" kinda guy. And its very refreshing.

He did comment that he wasnt overly excited by the CPU choice, but at the end of the day he seemed content with the performance of the Tabor.

Maybe he will chime in with his own comments regarding this.


It would be refreshing, as even I don't appreciate a constant stream of negativity.
And I've repeatedly said I wouldn't continue to post the facts contained in my last post, as it is a bit pointless. This IS happening.
And HEY, I still get what I want, so WTF, eh?

If its adequate for YOUR uses, and it fits your budget, I'd say go for it.
Do NOT make your choices based on mine.
We are very likely to have different goals and preferences.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Daytona675x on October 23, 2017, 02:41:17 PM
@kamelito
Quote
Daniel aka Daytona wrote in the youtube message stream that for now he didn't encounter any performance issue with the Tabor while porting Wings and Tower 57
That's not entirely correct ;) I did not mention Wings in that context. It was about T57, at least I meant it to be about T57 only.
Of course I encountered performance issues - but I was able to solve them by coming up with the native SPE build of T57. With that build there are no performance issues :)

@Niding
Quote
He did comment that he wasnt overly excited by the CPU choice, but at the end of the day he seemed content with the performance of the Tabor.
Right, of course I'd prefer a CPU with a std. FPU, who wouldn't. First of all that SPE thingy means lots of trouble.
The AOS4 pre-release version I got contains a first version of the FPU emulation. It's performance is good enough as long as not too much FPU code has to be emulated. But most important: it works reliable.

However, at this moment I am only happy with the Tabor's float-performanceif the code is either SPE native or only contains few FPU instructions to be emulated.

But, luckily, Thomas Frieden is working on, let's call it "FPU turbo emulation" (I don't know how much I'm allowed to say) and I know that he's making good progress with that. I'm pretty confident that this thing will solve most performance issues with non-native code.

And that's what I mean with "at the end of the day":
While at the moment the performance is fine for my T57 adventure, I'm confident that once Thomas finishes the work on emu-v2 it will also be good for most other float-hungry non-native stuff.
I'd suggest to give the Tabor a chance to show its full potential, and that means:

let the Hyperion guys first finish their work on the OS and don't be so negative yet. I bet they weren't overly excited by the CPU choice neither - but they are actually solving those issues, I guess some moral support won't hurt :)

The Tabor's CPU is pretty fast so IMHO chances are good that at the end of the day we'll end up with a system that performs ~ up to 1.5 times as fast as the 460 for native- or int-code and around 460-speed for code with rather huge amounts of code to be emulated in one way or the other.
Don't nail me on any of this though, it's just my opinion / my guess based on what I saw / experienced / know so far. We'll see.

So much to my opinion. Regarding those two games on Tabor:

T57: when using SPE directly then the performance is nice. When using std. FPU commands then performance is low, although not as low as one might expect considering all those exceptions and emulated FPU commands.

Wings: I didn't even try it on Tabor yet :) The problem with Wings is that it's based on good old Warp3D. So internally it does looooots of vertex transformations and stuff like that. This would be too much to ask from the current FPU emulation.
Now you might say: then do like you did for T57 and compile it for SPE.
Unfortunately that isn't that easy as it is for T57.
To make a long story short: compiled for SPE = code without those 32 FPU registers (SPE uses the GPRs). And this becomes a problem when calling library functions (e.g. Warp3D) which expect floats in FPU registers...
So either the game's float-code was emulated - then the data ended up in the emulated registers and all is good - but slow.
Or the game's float-code was SPE native - then the data ended up in a GPR - but the lib-function expects it inside an (emulated) FPU rgister, where it never appeared.
With T57 it was much easier because I do almost everything in software myself and the few libs I rely on aren't critical (or I wrote replacement functions).
I'll wait for the new turbo-emu before playing around with Wings on Tabor.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on October 23, 2017, 04:47:02 PM
The man does have a point about the performance of the e500V2 core outside of floating point.
Its basically the same as any other e500, and actually may outperform the e600 core (aka G4) on some functions.

Freescale cpus continued to progress after the goal of an e700 core was dropped, and many of the features intended for that product ended up being incorporated into later e500s, the e5500, and the e6500.

The e500V2 was never intended for floating point intensive applications, but it can serve in mixed integer/floating point applications.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on October 23, 2017, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: Daytona675x;832098
@kamelito

let the Hyperion guys first finish their work on the OS and don't be so negative yet. I bet they weren't overly excited by the CPU choice neither - but they are actually solving those issues, I guess some moral support won't hurt :)



I will be very happy with the tabor.
D'ont understand me wrong but when i wisch a really fast system i stay with my mac or pc.
I think the footprint of the os ( amiga os ) is small and that is a big benefit. Of corse the internet ask more and more but the Amiga works well with:):) the software for .... the Amiga. There is no PhotoShop of Imovie etc ....
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: woof on October 25, 2017, 01:16:15 PM
>becomes a problem when calling library functions (e.g. Warp3D) which expect floats in FPU registers...
???!!!
You talk about Warp3D 68k that was using registers
but as Warp3D for OS4 got an "interface" it can be called with parameters on the stack as normal C functions , no?

Edit: Just checked Warp3D 68k = it dont use fpu registers when calling functions but cpu registers only

Alain Thellier
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Daytona675x on October 25, 2017, 05:03:25 PM
@Thellier
:confused: 68k? Interface?? Stack??? "Normal C functions"????
I talk about the PPC ABI used in AOS4.
In one single thing you're right though: *calling* *Warp3D* functions is not critical at all.
However this is not because floats aren't passed through registers, they are of course. It is because floats / doubles aren't passed by value in Warp3D - and this is even true for functions that only want single float / double values (which is a design specialty of W3D that I had forgotten about). Which is why in that particular case they aren't passed through float registers indeed. So I could give Wings a SPE try indeed (although the results are probably not satisfying because with some bad luck there are double-based memcpys inside the W3D driver).
However, the ABI incompatibility I explained remains and causes trouble, of course. Just replace "Wings" by the name of your favorite 3D game and replace "e.g. Warp3D" by "MiniGL" (which has tons of functions that expect floats by value) in my explanation and you have a better example why simple re-compiling often won't work.

@Iggy
Yup.  IMHO chances are good that the pretty high performance of that thing in  combination with Thomas Frieden's optimizations save the day :)

@dirkzwanger
Yes,  and let's not forget that this thing is meant to be an entry level  system. So if real fpu-hungry *non*-native stuff runs "okay", then it  should be fine. And let's also not forget that real critical stuff (e.g.  minigl) can certainly be modified to at least do a high amount of work  in native code.

All in all: let's wait and see and be optimistic (and there's certainly reason to be optimistic) :)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on October 25, 2017, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: Daytona675x;832165
@Thellier
:confused: 68k? Interface?? Stack??? "Normal C functions"????
I talk about the PPC ABI used in AOS4.

@Iggy
Yup.  IMHO chances are good that the pretty high performance of that thing in  combination with Thomas Frieden's optimizations save the day :)

@dirkzwanger
Yes,  and let's not forget that this thing is meant to be an entry level  system. So if real fpu-hungry *non*-native stuff runs "okay", then it  should be fine. And let's also not forget that real critical stuff (e.g.  minigl) can certainly be modified to at least do a high amount of work  in native code.

All in all: let's wait and see and be optimistic (and there's certainly reason to be optimistic) :)


Well...I didn't say high performance,  but we do have to consider that the majority of all code is not floating point.
And when coded for natively, the e500V2 core should certainly be adequate to the application.
We'll have to see what Thomas pulls out of his...hat? But I wouldn't worry to much about the performance hit in software that can't be recompiled (think about that, how much is there?), and it still just a part of the performance equation.
Factor in stronger integer performance than the SAM460, and things aren't that grim.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: number6 on October 25, 2017, 10:38:43 PM
@thread

Steven has offered to answer questions as best he can concerning Tabor:

 AmiWest 2017 clarifications (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72898)

#6
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on October 25, 2017, 11:41:55 PM
What really turned off my enthusiasm toward A1222 after AmiWest was general enthusiasm toward emulation of AmigaOS4.1 as a GOOD method of running AmigaOS. So, what is a point of developing ANY hardware for AmigaOS4.1? That was my impression.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Hans_ on October 25, 2017, 11:51:50 PM
Quote from: kreciu;832184
What really turned off my enthusiasm toward A1222 after AmiWest was general enthusiasm toward emulation of AmigaOS4.1 as a GOOD method of running AmigaOS. So, what is a point of developing ANY hardware for AmigaOS4.1? That was my impression.


I don't think there was a general enthusiasm toward emulation at the show. I do like the ALICE laptop, and Ken's speech at the banquet was really interesting. However, I still prefer real hardware (and the ability to run 3D apps/games at speed). That's why I've got my own PORtable Tabor Incorporating Amigaone laptop project (https://keasigmadelta.com/diy-laptop/). I like the A1222/Tabor because it's small enough to make a laptop/luggable with real hardware possible.

Hans
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: utri007 on October 26, 2017, 06:10:09 AM
I'm going to get A1222, in any case it will be upgrade for my Sam 440ep Flex.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: woof on October 26, 2017, 09:00:43 AM
Hi
@Daytona675x
 
You are certainly a good coder but you have difficulties to admit when you are wrong
"calling library functions (e.g. Warp3D) which expect floats in FPU registers"
is just a wrong statement as Warp3D (both OS3 and OS4 versions) never used FPU registers for calling functions

>MiniGL (which has tons of functions that expect floats by value)
True but there are not "expecting floats in FPU registers" too


Greetings
Alain Thellier
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: AdvancedFollower on October 29, 2017, 03:37:36 PM
Quote from: kreciu;832184
What really turned off my enthusiasm toward A1222 after AmiWest was general enthusiasm toward emulation of AmigaOS4.1 as a GOOD method of running AmigaOS. So, what is a point of developing ANY hardware for AmigaOS4.1? That was my impression.

I've been running AmigaOS 4.1 in WinUAE for a while, and I wouldn't call the experience "good". Biggest limitation is slow/limited I/O, and lack of hardware 3D and compositing. In terms of raw CPU performance, my Ryzen 1800X desktop is about 50% of the X5000 performance running Sortbench, but I/O and video are very slow compared to real hardware so the overall experience is slow, choppy and limited.

I think they're just trying to expand the reach of OS4 by having a cheap, convenient method of running AmigaOS 4. Plus the Alice laptop is nearly finished while the A1222 is not.

Of course in theory, emulation could be expanded until it becomes really good. Implement pass-through for the GPU and storage, with the only emulated part being the PPC CPU itself rather than trying to emulate a full A4000 with Blizzard PPC. But that doesn't seem to be the route they are going.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Daytona675x on October 29, 2017, 09:10:08 PM
Quote from: woof;832201
Hi
@Daytona675x
 
You are certainly a good coder but you have difficulties to admit when you are wrong
"calling library functions (e.g. Warp3D) which expect floats in FPU registers"
is just a wrong statement as Warp3D (both OS3 and OS4 versions) never used FPU registers for calling functions

>MiniGL (which has tons of functions that expect floats by value)
True but there are not "expecting floats in FPU registers" too


Greetings
Alain Thellier

OMG, boy, I really don't have time for this crap, but well:
I don't know what your problem is (but somehow it seems to have something to do with a ego issue or things like "projection") but before you write more nonsense I suggest you do four things:

1. read before you write. I said that I was wrong with Warp3D.lib indeed since it doesn't pass floats by value even for functions like e.g. W3D_SetAlphaMode, which was sth. I forgot. As I wrote before.

2. read the specs. Hint #1 (http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/The_Hacking_Way:_Part_1_-_First_Steps#Registers) and Hint #2 (http://refspecs.linux-foundation.org/elf/elfspec_ppc.pdf).

3. take a your favorite C compiler suited for PPC AOS4, write some lines of code containing a nice glTranslatef(1.0f,2.0f,3.0f), look at the assembly output. Do you still want to really tell anybody that float parameters are not passed through float registers?

4. come back here and better delete your previous statements.
While you probably are a more or less decent coder you should probably stick to topics you know more about.

Cheerio

p.s.: to the other readers: of course, as I said before, the problem with SPE compiled code calling functions with float parameters inside FPU-compiled code (and vice versa) exists, it exists as I outlined, it exists with e.g. MiniGL, floats are passed through registers (if there are FPU registers...), no matter what Allain Thellier keeps saying here.
The only thing I was mistaken was taking Warp3D.lib as an example; MiniGL however is a good example. Which is what I wrote before, but just in case anybody else besides that pal here likes to skip reading that part :P
Good part of my little mistake: I might give Wings a shot on Tabor - but guess what: I already said that too :P
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on October 30, 2017, 03:09:22 PM
i was saturday in Germany. Amiga 32 Messe. Super.
I think 600-700 people ( i read on this site it was 520 people, still a lot ). You can buy a lot soft- and hardware. You can speak to the people of Hypirion, Aeon, Morphos, sellers .... A lot of fun. Al so speakers and a demo of the Tabor.
From Hypirion and Trevor from Aeon i understand that the Aone 1222 normaly is to buy early 2018.
 Trevor sad again that the price for the bord is 400 euro.
Happy new year for us amigians
I test the ALICE and i go for the real stuf. PPC and os4.1

By the way i dit buy a ACA 500+ for my amiga500 Plus. Fun fun fun
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on February 20, 2018, 01:21:47 AM
OK. Time to "stir" it again. Any new about Tabor :)? When EARLY 2018 ends, I hope before July ;)?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: AdvancedFollower on February 20, 2018, 09:33:49 AM
Last I heard, NIC and sound drivers still weren't working as of late 2017. Either someone only works a few hours every month on those, or they have taken more man-hours to develop than the entire OS 4.1... :confused:
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kolla on February 20, 2018, 05:05:30 PM
@kreciu

Could you add a space or two in that insanely long signature of yours, so that browsers can wrap the pages you post on better? :p
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: gertsy on February 21, 2018, 06:50:47 AM
Quote from: kolla;836357
@kreciu

Could you add a space or two in that insanely long signature of yours, so that browsers can wrap the pages you post on better? :p


+1
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: gertsy on February 21, 2018, 06:52:27 AM
Quote from: kolla;836357
@kreciu

Could you add a space or two in that insanely long signature of yours, so that browsers can wrap the pages you post on better? :p


+1

And get rid of that Win98se line. It's not impressing anyone.  ;)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: yssing on February 21, 2018, 08:35:04 AM
Quote from: kolla;836357
@kreciu

Could you add a space or two in that insanely long signature of yours, so that browsers can wrap the pages you post on better? :p


I second that, his signature breaks the browsers view when I read on my phone.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on February 21, 2018, 03:48:59 PM
Quote from: yssing;836381
I second that, his signature breaks the browsers view when I read on my phone.


Doesn't affect my low end Samsung.
I say leave it, I know other people that have reinstalled Win98 too.
It's a good platform for DOS games.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on February 21, 2018, 06:43:01 PM
Quote from: kolla;836357
@kreciu

Could you add a space or two in that insanely long signature of yours, so that browsers can wrap the pages you post on better? :p


Your wish is my command.

Is it better?

I will NEVER remove Win98SE... never :P
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on February 21, 2018, 06:44:24 PM
Quote from: Iggy;836401

It's a good platform for DOS games.


EXACTLY.

So, no Tabor anytime soon :(
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: trekiej on February 21, 2018, 07:21:35 PM
How is the dual core gaming performance? I guess they would have to use Linux to know that.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: trekiej on February 28, 2018, 03:00:52 AM
Is it possible that Tabor will have a new FPU library to solve the incompatibility problem?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on February 28, 2018, 04:21:42 PM
Quote from: trekiej;836748
Is it possible that Tabor will have a new FPU library to solve the incompatibility problem?


I think that at this point it is better to ask this: Is Tabor possible?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kolla on February 28, 2018, 04:40:41 PM
Quote from: kreciu;836407
Your wish is my command.


Oooh...! :D

Quote

Is it better?


Yes, much better, thanks! :)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on March 01, 2018, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: kolla;836760
Oooh...! :D



Yes, much better, thanks! :)


You are welcome!
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: trekiej on March 01, 2018, 06:35:05 PM
Quote from: kreciu;836757
I think that at this point it is better to ask this: Is Tabor possible?


Why is it not possible?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on March 01, 2018, 09:08:25 PM
Quote from: trekiej;836788
Why is it not possible?

Yes, why not? We waiting for so long, when it is not possible they never start with the a1222 or the project whose cancel a long time ago.
I think ...
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: trekiej on March 01, 2018, 11:00:46 PM
If it works well with Linux then sell it.
edit:
Does it need a special version of OS4.1?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: BozzerBigD on March 01, 2018, 11:11:00 PM
Quote from: dirkzwager;836790
Yes, why not? We waiting for so long, when it is not possible they never start with the a1222 or the project whose cancel a long time ago.
I think ...
One word explains the delay, DRIVERS! Most AmigaOne machines have historically been released with incomplete driver software for onboard networking chips and even sound chips! This time there is no space for a networking board to be added so the onboard chip HAS TO be supported from day one! This is not something anyone in the Amiga community can deliver quickly. The Prisma Megamix was delayed for months if not years due to drivers and that was just an add on board!
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: AdvancedFollower on March 02, 2018, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: BozzerBigD;836793
One word explains the delay, DRIVERS! Most AmigaOne machines have historically been released with incomplete driver software for onboard networking chips and even sound chips! This time there is no space for a networking board to be added so the onboard chip HAS TO be supported from day one! This is not something anyone in the Amiga community can deliver quickly. The Prisma Megamix was delayed for months if not years due to drivers and that was just an add on board!


So what about the supposed cost savings from going with a small board without add-on card slots? Sure, this makes the board cheaper to produce, but driver development isn't free either.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: BozzerBigD on March 02, 2018, 10:59:05 AM
All AmigaOne machines have had the outlay of developers working on the  onboard chips the only difference this time is that the board can't ship  until the network chip code is complete. This shouldn't affect the cost of  the Tabor. The driver work is normally paid up front as detailed in the  link below:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42440&forum=32

AmigaKit Quote from 1st March 2018
Quote
A-EON Technology Ltd contracted Costel Mincea of Hyperion Entertainment  CVBA to create the SANA network driver for X5000 and A1222 and  additionally complete the X1000 driver project.  The contract was signed  at the Amiga 30th event in Peterborough, UK in August 2015.  Payment  was made for the contract in full within the following month and as I  understand work has been ongoing steadfastly since on all three projects  with breaks in the development for the various X5000/A1222 ISO  preparation work and Kernel debugging/testing.  With respect to Cyrus  and Tabor, a few complications on converting the large complex/bloated  Linux driver code to a suitable Amiga SANA driver format were cited as  the initial roadblocks if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on March 02, 2018, 04:29:57 PM
Quote from: AdvancedFollower;836803
So what about the supposed cost savings from going with a small board without add-on card slots? Sure, this makes the board cheaper to produce, but driver development isn't free either.


That is exactly what I was thinking. TWO years (2.5) of waiting for Tabor. There is plenty of LAN/sound cards that could be used. It almost looks like Tabor is dead :(, but I still hope it will be out.

In some way I like idea of small computers, but Tabor looks like to me, more and more underpowered etc. even for Amiga use.

I wish Tabor had some nice Radeon on-board. THEN that would be a nice, tiny Amiga for years to come.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: yssing on March 02, 2018, 04:41:52 PM
Yes this constant waiting is getting a bit old..
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on March 02, 2018, 07:45:18 PM
Quote from: yssing;836819
Yes this constant waiting is getting a bit old..


I know, but I waited for my BlizzardPPC 15 years so, 2.5 years is nothing ;).
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on March 02, 2018, 09:54:36 PM
Quote from: kreciu;836823
I know, but I waited for my BlizzardPPC 15 years so, 2.5 years is nothing ;).


Yes, and how long did it take OS4 to be considered out of beta?

Look guys, blame Mincea, he signed the contract to develop the drivers AND claimed to be responsible for the poorly functioning beta driver the developers have for the X1000.
Tabor HAS to ship with a network driver.
You might be able to resort to a USB doggle, but that is far from ideal.

Right now we need functioning network drivers for the X5000 and Tabor for both Linux and OS4.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on March 02, 2018, 11:55:19 PM
Quote from: Iggy;836825
Yes, and how long did it take OS4 to be considered out of beta?

Depend who you ask. For me AOS4.1 Final Update 1 is still BETA. Considering this, I wish there still would be some development of AOS4.1 for classics. I'm serious, it is not like we are going to stop using them even if Tabor will be released. There is still PLENTY of work that could be done :). Especially when I hear about updates for OS3.1! IMO AmigaOS4.1 Final will be final, IF/when it will support 99% classic hardware :). THIS IS FINAL (including both CPUs on BPPC ;) - why not?)

Quote
Look guys, blame Mincea, he signed the contract to develop the drivers AND claimed to be responsible for the poorly functioning beta driver the developers have for the X1000.
Tabor HAS to ship with a network driver.
You might be able to resort to a USB doggle, but that is far from ideal.

Right now we need functioning network drivers for the X5000 and Tabor for both Linux and OS4.

Is this about money or lack of time or both? Last few months there is only... SILENCE about Tabor.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on March 03, 2018, 01:02:17 AM
Quote from: kreciu;836826
...Is this about money or lack of time or both? Last few months there is only... SILENCE about Tabor.


Well, they were paid in full according to Aeon, so its not about money.
And porting to a e500v2 cored cpu can't be that different than porting to an e5500 cored cpu.

So...my guess is it really is the network driver that is stumping them.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: AdvancedFollower on March 03, 2018, 04:57:31 PM
Quote from: kreciu;836818
That is exactly what I was thinking. TWO years (2.5) of waiting for Tabor. There is plenty of LAN/sound cards that could be used. It almost looks like Tabor is dead :(, but I still hope it will be out.

In some way I like idea of small computers, but Tabor looks like to me, more and more underpowered etc. even for Amiga use.

I wish Tabor had some nice Radeon on-board. THEN that would be a nice, tiny Amiga for years to come.

Quote
The contract was signed at the Amiga 30th event in Peterborough, UK in August 2015.

Honestly, 2.5 years is way too long to wait for a NIC driver. The actual amount of code that has to be written isn't that great, and open source Linux drivers could probably be used for reference.

I work at a company that does software development (though I'm not directly involved with development myself), and they regularly complete major development projects in a few hundred to a thousand hours, which when split between a few people means a few months max. If we spent years on a single development project, we'd be out of business.
Either the person responsible isn't dedicating enough time to development (less than a few hours per week), or simply doesn't have the skills and experience necessary for driver development.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: number6 on March 03, 2018, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: AdvancedFollower;836842
Honestly, 2.5 years is way too long to wait for a NIC driver. The actual amount of code that has to be written isn't that great, and open source Linux drivers could probably be used for reference.

I work at a company that does software development (though I'm not directly involved with development myself), and they regularly complete major development projects in a few hundred to a thousand hours, which when split between a few people means a few months max. If we spent years on a single development project, we'd be out of business.
Either the person responsible isn't dedicating enough time to development (less than a few hours per week), or simply doesn't have the skills and experience necessary for driver development.


For what it's worth, this is the explanation from a dev point of view, in case you did not read the entire original thread:
Jamie Krueger (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=42440&forum=32&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0#809175)

#6
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on March 03, 2018, 06:03:46 PM
Quote from: AdvancedFollower;836842
Honestly, 2.5 years is way too long to wait for a NIC driver. The actual amount of code that has to be written isn't that great, and open source Linux drivers could probably be used for reference.


In all fairness, having a Linux model doesn't always offer as much utility as people think.
Of all the NG OS', AROS seems to be the operating system that benefits most from Linux examples.
The PPC OS' usually require tighter more streamlined solutions.

But this difference is why I favor NG OS', as Linux uses an ever growing brute force model, while NG OS' descend from a 68K OS where resources were much tighter and coding efficiency had to be maximized.

And my own coding is suited to this as I always wrote for modularity, breaking down tasks into separate sub parts.
What worked well once to limit resource demands on 68K OS' now serves well in SMP OS' to maximize threading.

Also, I think we've had some really creative coders in the Amiga community, and some of them are still here turning out improved solutions.

Further, I just exchanged a message with Ralph Schmidt today, and I made a point of thanking him for his use of a micro kernel in MorphOS. With no apologies to Torvalds, I still think this is a more efficient and stable way to base an OS (unlike the massive monolithic kernel Linux is based on - where the kernel alone is larger than AmigaOS in its entirety).

We have a history of thinking outside of the box, basically descended from our heritage with the first commonly available multimedia computer.
And even some of our dead end were pretty cool (like I would have loved to see the QNX based fork of AmigaOS continue to be developed).

SO...what's the point of this post? Well, Linux models reflect their inefficient UNIX heritage. And as someone who moved from 68K Xenix based systems to more efficient 68K OS' that were being promoted for process control applications, I KNOW there are better ways to do things than the mainstream standards.

Basically, just because Windows, OSX/MacOS and Linux (at a very distant third) dominate the market, it DOESN'T mean we have to model our approaches on these OS'.
Sometimes different can be better.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on March 03, 2018, 06:04:35 PM
Sorry, a crash led to a duplicate post.

Jim
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: AmigaEd on March 03, 2018, 06:12:08 PM
Quote from: number6;836844
For what it's worth, this is the explanation from a dev point of view, in case you did not read the entire original thread:
Jamie Krueger (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=42440&forum=32&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0#809175)

#6


I read what the dev is writing but I tend to agree with AdvancedFollower's assessment. I'm an engineer working for a company developing both hardware and Software and if I've learned one thing over the years, that is if you leave the timeline for any commercial project in the hands of the engineers you will be waiting a long time.

I am consistently amazed at how quickly projects can advance when good project management practices and collaboration are in place. These are the two elements I often see lacking when it comes to Amiga projects.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: AdvancedFollower on March 16, 2018, 09:45:19 AM
http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2018-03-00028-EN.html

Ouch! I wonder if this is connected to the delay of the A1222...
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: psxphill on March 16, 2018, 10:22:15 AM
Quote from: AmigaEd;836847
I read what the dev is writing but I tend to agree with AdvancedFollower's assessment. I'm an engineer working for a company developing both hardware and Software and if I've learned one thing over the years, that is if you leave the timeline for any commercial project in the hands of the engineers you will be waiting a long time.

It depends on the engineers and what you have asked them to do.

I always found that the timeline for my projects were impacted more by management having crazy ideas for how things should be implemented.

If I was developing the network driver for this I'd start with the easiest way, even if it meant using a "bloated linux driver" and it only ran at 100mb/s etc. If people want to wait for a gigabit driver before purchasing then that is their choice & I would make it clear that a better driver was still in development but may never happen.

Once the hardware is out there then someone else might even develop a better network driver.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Bennymee on March 16, 2018, 12:05:13 PM
Quote from: psxphill;837399
It depends on the engineers and what you have asked them to do.

I always found that the timeline for my projects were impacted more by management having crazy ideas for how things should be implemented.

If I was developing the network driver for this I'd start with the easiest way, even if it meant using a "bloated linux driver" and it only ran at 100mb/s etc. If people want to wait for a gigabit driver before purchasing then that is their choice & I would make it clear that a better driver was still in development but may never happen.

Once the hardware is out there then someone else might even develop a better network driver.


My thoughts, besides that, none of my Amiga's -  NG machines >3MB/sec.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on March 16, 2018, 07:29:34 PM
Hyperion forcibly deleted from Belgium's company register

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2018-03-00028-EN.html

i hope this has no effect on the tabor
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Arnuph1s on March 17, 2018, 01:53:38 AM
Hopefully the A1222 boards won't need re-capping by the time the OS catches them up.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: ferrellsl on March 17, 2018, 01:59:54 AM
Quote from: dirkzwager;837426
Hyperion forcibly deleted from Belgium's company register

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2018-03-00028-EN.html

i hope this has no effect on the tabor


Maybe this explains the delays in the drivers and FPU code for the Tabor....and it won't stop Hyperion from doing what they do best, which is file law suits.  They certainly haven't done OS4 any favors since they released it 14 years ago.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Kremlar on March 17, 2018, 02:53:22 AM
Quote from: Arnuph1s;837434
Hopefully the A1222 boards won't need re-capping by the time the OS catches them up.


:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on March 17, 2018, 09:08:27 AM
Some times i am tired of waiting on the A1222. But we (i)have no choice. Probely i go start a Pi project with Amibian.
I had the choice to by Vampire in september. I din't by it because of the tabor that came out at amiga32 in Germany in october '17. When i now what i now today i better had by the vampire.
I hope the A1222 come out shortly
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Skateman on March 17, 2018, 09:30:27 PM
this... "Hyperion forcibly deleted from Belgium's company register" is old info and solved already.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: wawrzon on March 18, 2018, 12:33:17 PM
people will continue to believe what they prefer no matter what.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Acill on March 18, 2018, 03:36:41 PM
Maybe, but its now been three years since the 1222 has been done. It doesnt take a competent software developer over three years to get drivers in a usable state for sound and ethernet. I call this total and complete incompetence myself.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: trekiej on March 18, 2018, 05:02:37 PM
What does it take to find out what is going on?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Fats on March 19, 2018, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: trekiej;837497
What does it take to find out what is going on?


The company seem to be listed on the KBO: Hyperion Entertainment (https://kbopub.economie.fgov.be/kbopub/toonondernemingps.html?lang=en&ondernemingsnummer=466380552)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: yssing on March 19, 2018, 07:38:13 PM
Yes we have been waiting for a very long time.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: spudje on March 20, 2018, 07:52:35 AM
Quote from: Skateman;837469
this... "Hyperion forcibly deleted from Belgium's company register" is old info and solved already.

Honestly, they seem to be solving but nothing. It's clear they're pretty lousy in running a business just from administration perspective with the trackrecord (bankruptcy, deleted from register,...) they have the past few years, whether or not they still are a valid registered company, ending up in these situations does not proof of professionality. And the only thing they care for is growing their own dick. Going after all these trademarks and now just recently sueing basically almost every other Amiga company. They have absolutely nothing whatsoever going on that is good for the wider Amiga benefit. To the contrary they're currently seem to be totally destroying all the convergence that started to happen within the community the past few years.

It's clear they have no interest in AOS4 for Tabor A1222 and AOS 4.2 as that just leaves them with less money for legal activities....

If only Trevor could simply acquire Hyperion, kick out the bad apples, and apply his so much more constructive approach to the OS as well...
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: nicholas on March 20, 2018, 12:19:03 PM
Quote from: spudje;837542
Honestly, they seem to be solving but nothing. It's clear they're pretty lousy in running a business just from administration perspective with the trackrecord (bankruptcy, deleted from register,...) they have the past few years, whether or not they still are a valid registered company, ending up in these situations does not proof of professionality. And the only thing they care for is growing their own dick. Going after all these trademarks and now just recently sueing basically almost every other Amiga company. They have absolutely nothing whatsoever going on that is good for the wider Amiga benefit. To the contrary they're currently seem to be totally destroying all the convergence that started to happen within the community the past few years.

It's clear they have no interest in AOS4 for Tabor A1222 and AOS 4.2 as that just leaves them with less money for legal activities....

If only Trevor could simply acquire Hyperion, kick out the bad apples, and apply his so much more constructive approach to the OS as well...


Some of us have been saying this since 2001 but were drowned out by emotionally challenged halfwits for the most part.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on March 20, 2018, 08:32:55 PM
Quote from: nicholas;837543
Some of us have been saying this since 2001 but were drowned out by emotionally challenged halfwits for the most part.


Now, now, Nik,
That argument will only get you called a blue team troll, even if it's true.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on March 20, 2018, 08:53:18 PM
It's getting to the point where I'm surprised people are still interested / still waiting on it.  I've given up on a few other products like that - by the time they finally came to market my interests had moved on. :(
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: goldfish on March 20, 2018, 09:55:26 PM
Tabor is BoXer MKII shown but never delivered
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: AmigaEd on March 20, 2018, 11:10:57 PM
Quote from: trekiej;837497
What does it take to find out what is going on?


Hyperion making a statement that either supports or refutes the alleged situation. Simple as that.

(Of course, the current trend seems to be to wait until you're called out in main stream media three years after the fact and then dismiss it by saying that your company only provides a platform and not the material. Then shrug your shoulders and say "well, only an insignificant 50 million users were affected".)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: F1Lupo on March 21, 2018, 02:29:46 AM
Quote from: Iggy;837551
Now, now, Nik,
That argument will only get you called a blue team troll, even if it's true.


+1 though......ah never mind erased my initial post to avoid Red vs Blue on this thread...all I'll say is ACube and then A-Eon chose AmigaOS4.1 and I've supported and enjoyed using (still do )both companies products quite happily
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: trekiej on March 21, 2018, 03:28:59 AM
Maybe we will have a Press Release at a Convention soon.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: AdvancedFollower on March 21, 2018, 08:59:40 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;837552
It's getting to the point where I'm surprised people are still interested / still waiting on it.  I've given up on a few other products like that - by the time they finally came to market my interests had moved on. :(


Yeah, I was really excited about Tabor when I first read about it in late 2015. Now it's 2018 and nothing much has happened. There's just no point in waiting any more, just move on to something else and forget about this pipe dream.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on March 21, 2018, 04:25:25 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;837552
It's getting to the point where I'm surprised people are still interested / still waiting on it.  I've given up on a few other products like that - by the time they finally came to market my interests had moved on. :(

Trevor few months ago showed A1222 running, and it supposed to be on AmigaWest 2017, so people are waiting.

As far as network driver, Trevor showed A1222 with internet working on it. It looks like driver is relatively functional, so "finishing" it should not take MONTHS.

I think Amiga will never leave Limbo, it is time to accept it. I have to say, that all this issues, are good example how not to do things "in real life". In some hobby land, sure... but real life? :hahaha: :hahaha:

Ps. Anybody wants to buy IBM PC + green monitor - 100% functional, books etc. Including CF memory interface for ISA slot? :)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: adonay on March 21, 2018, 06:19:42 PM
This makes me think about the Elbox Dragon
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: number6 on March 23, 2018, 12:34:45 PM
@thread

Info about Tabor and ethernet (and more):

Trevor's blog - We are Amiga! (http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/?m=201803)

#6
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: utri007 on March 23, 2018, 04:41:27 PM
NIC driver developer has changed.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: blakespot on March 23, 2018, 07:53:56 PM
Quote from: number6;837700
@thread

Info about Tabor and ethernet (and more):

Trevor's blog - We are Amiga! (http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/?m=201803)

#6


My GOD, I want that Fat Agnus poster so badly! Don't suppose there's a high res image floating around?


bp
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Comi on March 23, 2018, 08:32:40 PM
Ethernet is there! So what missing-audio driver? No news about that? Is that Hyperion's part of work?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Jeff on March 23, 2018, 09:48:55 PM
Quote from: blakespot;837739
My GOD, I want that Fat Agnus poster so badly! Don't suppose there's a high res image floating around?


bp

I have it too! It came with my book.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: yssing on March 23, 2018, 09:55:15 PM
Not that much news about the Tabor, a release date would be nice, so we know how long we have to put money aside :)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: dirkzwager on March 24, 2018, 07:30:07 AM
:confused:No date, or indication of time.
Network is almost ready ... not much news of te a1222.
It is still a live, that is for sure
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on March 31, 2018, 02:13:51 PM
Something is happening...

http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/?m=201803

Good!
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on March 31, 2018, 06:56:21 PM
So, there is a hope.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on April 01, 2018, 12:52:23 AM
Quote from: number6;837700
@thread

Info about Tabor and ethernet (and more):

Trevor's blog - We are Amiga! (http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/?m=201803)

#6

I found the part about RX video card support more interesting myself.
But as most of you know, Tabor doesn't really do it for me.

Hans' work though...always impressive.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: adonay on April 01, 2018, 11:12:54 AM
I fail to see how any os4 capable computer would not be a botleneck . And what Amiga application would take advantage of a RX based card?  Most advanced games we have Are from the late 90s . Not to mention our dogslow chipsets and lack og multithread support
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on May 08, 2018, 12:23:55 AM
I wish Trevor would update his blog...

Trevor: "I can't believe it's already March, just where has the time gone? "

Kreciu: I can't believe it's MAY! ;)
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on May 08, 2018, 01:58:06 AM
Quote from: adonay;838119
I fail to see how any os4 capable computer would not be a botleneck . And what Amiga application would take advantage of a RX based card?  Most advanced games we have Are from the late 90s . Not to mention our dogslow chipsets and lack og multithread support

Current hardware doesn't really take full advantage of any of the high end video cards from the 6750 up.
So what?
If I had the choice of a Radeon HD 7750, and R7 250, or an RX580, I'd prefer the RX580. For one thing, it's a current card.
And if we aim lower, say an RX550, it shouldn't be too cpu limited.

That said, since I'm a MorphOS user, and I haven't bought an X5000/20 because I'm hoping for an X5000/40, if I had one  I'd probably drop down to something like an HD 4770. I'd get a driver with overlay support and and video card that's reasonably suited the cpu's capabilities.

I've used a 7750, it's not that much more impressive. And the R7 250 kind if a dog, slower than my R7 260X, which in turn can't touch an HD7850.

What I'm hoping for is R600 (or possibly R700) AGP support for our legacy systems, and 3D acceleration for all the new Radeon HD cards that have been added to the support list.

All that being said, I still think what Hans de Ruiter has accomplished under OS4 in terms of video card support is remarkable.

Pity there isn't someone with that level of talent writing network and sound drivers. You might have those dreadful P1022 based boards in your hands if those issues were resolved.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on September 16, 2018, 10:30:21 PM
Anything new about A1222? ANYTHING?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Iggy on September 16, 2018, 11:01:59 PM
The A1222 should make an appearance at AmiWest 2018, for those of you that give a *#@.

I myself quietly await the X5000/40, which is already in some developer's hands.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: kreciu on September 17, 2018, 04:56:03 PM
I was hopping to see it available last year. How long is it from its first announcement... 3+ years?

Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: jj on September 25, 2018, 12:34:41 PM
According to the Checkmate lot, Trev Dick has  guaranteed it will be ready by May next year
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: F0LLETT on September 25, 2018, 01:50:30 PM
"Checkmate lot"

Checkmate?
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: number6 on September 25, 2018, 02:31:43 PM
"Checkmate lot"

Checkmate?

He's referring to Steve Jones. (your kickstarter banner upper right)

the quote from Trevor (https://www.facebook.com/CheckmateA1500Plus/photos/a.494524351023291/507666403042419/?type=3&theater)

#6
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: F0LLETT on September 26, 2018, 09:39:09 AM
"Checkmate lot"

Checkmate?

He's referring to Steve Jones. (your kickstarter banner upper right)

the quote from Trevor (https://www.facebook.com/CheckmateA1500Plus/photos/a.494524351023291/507666403042419/?type=3&theater)

#6

Interesting, this is all news to me, which it shouldn't be.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: outlawal2 on September 26, 2018, 03:54:38 PM
What is news to you?   The Checkmate case initiative and Kickstart? 
Or Trevors comment that the Tabor will be ready by May 2019?

??
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: F0LLETT on September 27, 2018, 09:22:39 AM
What is news to you?   The Checkmate case initiative and Kickstart? 
Or Trevors comment that the Tabor will be ready by May 2019?

??

Tabor comment.
Title: Re: Lets talk about A1222 - Tabor
Post by: Leifern on May 15, 2019, 06:40:33 PM
So it is now may of next year and no news. The checkmate ase is looking really nice and I would happily buy one If I knew there was an A1222 coming that I could fit in the case. I wrote A-EON a couple of weeks ago but have recieved no reply. I do hope they make some official announcement soon.