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Author Topic: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!  (Read 5319 times)

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Offline giZmo350Topic starter

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AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« on: August 13, 2017, 06:21:12 PM »
From EAB.....

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=88275

From AmigaWorld.de

http://www.amigaworld.de/blog/webseiten/amigaos-internetseite-eingestellt/

Translated from above link....

"The idea of the AmigaOS website came after the official pages disappeared from the Internet and left a gap for the user. Thus, it was still possible to obtain all official updates for AmigaOS 3.1, 3.5 and 3.9.

After over 12 years of presence in the net, Hyperion Entertainment approached me, pointing to the violation of the copyright of some archives for AmigaOS 3.1 and the request for removal. On request for an alternative source, unfortunately I could not be called. According to Hyperion Enterainment, you are also working on improvements to AmigaOS 3.1 - whether, when, or how the missing updates are incorporated, remains open.

I have decided to take the unofficial AmigaOS website completely from the net. Users will now have to contact the manufacturer and / or copyright owner directly. A big thank you to all who helped the website and for the very lively use of the offer."



And the Hyperion/Indivision P96 deal fell thru...

http://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1096284&postcount=2833

POPCORN!!!!  :lol:
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:10:29 PM by gizmo350 »
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Offline QuikSanz

Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 06:32:07 PM »
This does not sit well with me. Don't think I'll be patronizing the company until they fix this.
I still use classics and this stuff is important.

Chris
 

Offline giZmo350Topic starter

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Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 07:23:57 PM »
Hmmmm, actually looks like much ado about nothing... :lol:

Back to your regularly scheduled NoKo fears.... :roflmao:

« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 07:39:01 PM by gizmo350 »
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Offline TheMagicM

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Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 10:08:00 PM »
Dont see why it matters.   If you really want the software, you can google and find it.  

Hell I know of people who have OS4 running under Windows emulation and didnt pay for it.  lol.   By people I mean, 1, and heavens no, its not me.  LMAO. (yes, this thread isnt about OS4, but still, point made).
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Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 11:00:59 PM »
Quote from: gizmo350;829543
After over 12 years of presence in the net, Hyperion Entertainment approached me, pointing to the violation of the copyright of some archives for AmigaOS 3.1 and the request for removal.
The only thing that was asked for, just to be completely fair, was to remove four beta updates nobody should actually use anymore to begin with.

http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/comments/thread/AN-2017-08-00020-DE.html?frm_start=0

Quote from: gizmo350;829543
I have decided to take the unofficial AmigaOS website completely from the net.
That, however, was your own decision, and was neither asked for. Even though, again to be completely fair, it does contain copyrighted material of copyright you do not own. Hosting such material means that you can always contacted from the rights holder to take it down.

Quote from: gizmo350;829543
And the Hyperion/Indivision P96 deal fell thru...

http://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1096284&postcount=2833
Actually, I'm really amazed what you read into this. If I read it, it only means that Hyperion does not have resources to deliver what Jens was asking for. That does not suprise me the least. I actually doubt that there was a deal to begin with.

One thing I find really amazing: When I mentioned the idea of potentially integrating P96 a bit deeper into the Os probably a year ago, a lot of aggression popped up how one could dare trying to monopolize the rtg graphics "market" of the amiga. Bad, bad thing, how could I dare thinking...

Now, it seems all plausibe that Jens was potentially asking for something like that, probably for his "Amiga reloaded", and now that Hyperion has (obviously) no resources for making this happen, it is also considered bad.

It's probably about time that folks here try to find out what is really desired and what is not.
 

Offline kolla

Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 11:54:50 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;829555

It's probably about time that folks here try to find out what is really desired and what is not.


People want things that work, if embedding P96 into the OS means interfering with using CGFx, then no... I would not want that.
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Offline cha05e90

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Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 10:08:41 AM »
Quote from: kolla;829557
People want things that work, if embedding P96 into the OS means interfering with using CGFx, then no... I would not want that.


What means "interferring"? Most - if not all - CGX based software works with a Picasso96 installed systems (like one of my A2000's). Same is true for (most) CGX aware software that I use with AmigaOS 4.1 FEU1, which has no real "Picasso96" anymore - it is integrated into the OS itself (mostly graphics library).

So I assume it is all matter of stub/wrapper design, which we have since ages between Picasso and CyberGrafX.
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Offline olsen

Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 11:05:55 AM »
Quote from: cha05e90;829564
What means "interferring"? Most - if not all - CGX based software works with a Picasso96 installed systems (like one of my A2000's). Same is true for (most) CGX aware software that I use with AmigaOS 4.1 FEU1, which has no real "Picasso96" anymore - it is integrated into the OS itself (mostly graphics library).

So I assume it is all matter of stub/wrapper design, which we have since ages between Picasso and CyberGrafX.

The entire "family" of solutions (Domino, Picasso II, MacroSystem Retina, EGS, CyberGraphX, Picasso96) which replace the built-in Amiga chip set graphics output with what used to be SVGA graphics hardware needs a very specific operating system version to work with.

The oldest solutions would support Kickstart version 2.04 as well as Kickstart versions 3.0 and 3.1. Those solutions which still saw updates in the recent past no longer support Kickstart version 2.04.

In order to make the change from the built-in Amiga chip set to the SVGA graphics hardware possible, scores of run-time patches are applied to the operating system, and the code which is hooked into the operating system also makes assumptions about the layout and contents of undocumented data structures.

For example, a set of run-time patches makes opening screens possible on Picasso96, which rely upon the specific contents of several CPU registers when memory is allocated for the screen to use. As it is, this only works with intuition.library versions 39 and 40, as built with a 'C' compiler last updated in 1987. Use a different 'C' compiler and Picasso96 will suddenly start using chip memory for screens because the CPU register contents expected by the run-time patches no longer match.

Picasso II and CyberGraphX support screen dragging, just like it does on the Amiga built-in chip set (if you can still recall that!). The code which made this work was originally developed for Kickstart 2.04 (by Thomas Sontowski), but when Kickstart 3.0 came around it ceased to work. The internal data structures attached to the fundamental screen data structure had changed (in 1992), which broke the run-time patch that enabled screen dragging support. While a solution for this unexpected incompatibility was eventually found, it relied upon a set of undocumented data structures.

The dependencies on run-time patches and undocumented data structures are going to cause trouble sooner or later if/when graphics.library and intuition.library are modified and rebuilt. There will be a need, and there arguably already is a need, to allow the Amiga operating system to play better with the kind of new hardware which we will see arriving this and next year (keeping my fingers crossed).

In Commodore's times it was already hard to make clever hardware solutions work, because the Amiga operating system was tightly integrated with the custom chip set, and there was no apparent need to go beyond it. Commodore itself failed at making the transition to what was called "retargetable graphics" (RTG for short), and 3rd party developers such as Village Tronic succeeded in spite of this. When Commodore went out of business, these third party solutions were no easier to make and evolve. I was there, and there are scores of stories about the strange bugs that popped up during development to baffle everyone involved. These run-time patches, etc. were some of the most complex solutions you could imagine.

It is no easier today than it was back in the 1990'ies to graft code onto an operating system not intended to be extensible in the graphics arena in the first place.

It cannot stay that way indefinitely: making the operating system more friendly towards the use of today's hardware rather than having the developers spent an awful amount of time jumping through hoops, will have to happen.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:09:33 AM by olsen »
 

guest11527

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Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 12:43:41 PM »
Quote from: olsen;829565
For example, a set of run-time patches makes opening screens possible on Picasso96, which rely upon the specific contents of several CPU registers when memory is allocated for the screen to use. As it is, this only works with intuition.library versions 39 and 40, as built with a 'C' compiler last updated in 1987. Use a different 'C' compiler and Picasso96 will suddenly start using chip memory for screens because the CPU register contents expected by the run-time patches no longer match.
As an update to that, I crafted around 2000 an interface extension to AllocBitMap() that would allow a cleaner handling of the matter, but it requires both a change in P96 (where this interface is actually already present in the sourcecode) and in intuition (where this interface would have to be used, but it is not).

Unfortunately, I do not know about the internal workings of CGfx, but I would expect similar trickery. One way or another, if this area is not touched, it currently prohibits the further development of intuition. Even further, adding something elementary like "off screen dragging of windows" is a piece of cake with layers V45, but it requires a recompilation of intuition. Given that the compiler for intuition is no longer available (Greenhill C), one can no longer guarantee that exactly the same register layout P96 (and likely CGfx) depend upon will be used in newer versions.

Alas, deadlock!

Quote from: olsen;829565
Picasso II and CyberGraphX support screen dragging, just like it does on the Amiga built-in chip set (if you can still recall that!). The code which made this work was originally developed for Kickstart 2.04 (by Thomas Sontowski), but when Kickstart 3.0 came around it ceased to work. The internal data structures attached to the fundamental screen data structure had changed (in 1992), which broke the run-time patch that enabled screen dragging support. While a solution for this unexpected incompatibility was eventually found, it relied upon a set of undocumented data structures.
Further note on that: What CGfx offers here is not "like it does on the Amiga chipset" simply because contemporary (at the time, and even nowadays) PC chipsets do not support it. The best VGA can do is reset the bitmap pointer in the middle of the screen. This gives you the ability to display at most two screens (not arbitrarily many, as on Amiga) with exactly the same resolution (unlike the Amiga, which allows mixing low-res and hi-res) and exactly the same palette (unlike the Amiga, which allows palette switching). The only resolution would be to compose the screens manually with a fast blitter (or 3D hardware, as available today, but not back then).

The morale of the story is: Yes, CGFx supports some sort of screen dragging, but a considerably limited version of it, and there is no way to extend it towards a fully useful dragging support given the limitations of the hardware of the past days.

With custom hardware (aka Vampire) the cards are all mixed anew, however graphics currently lacks a suitable interface to abstract the copper away and to retarget this to a different hardware. IOWs, without a serious redesign of graphics, this is also a no-go, unless somebody wants to sacrifice CGfx and/or P96 compatibility.



Quote from: olsen;829565
It cannot stay that way indefinitely: making the operating system more friendly towards the use of today's hardware rather than having the developers spent an awful amount of time jumping through hoops, will have to happen.
I second that. However, given the workpower available at the moment, and the political implications of at least breaking one rtg system, I believe the chances to make serious progress in this area are rather limited.

I personally consider it desirable, but given the opposition received I would prefer to keep out of this.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 03:46:40 PM »
Great answer Olsen,
A nice, concise description of the issues at hand.
In the 80's and early '90s I used other 68K OS' for process control, and as those were designed to be modular, incorporating alternate graphics systems was a bit easier.
As you've pointed out AmigaOS was never designed with graphics upgrades in mind, but it could be altered to make that upgrade easier to support.
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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 04:05:10 PM »
So, before this thread gets too far off-topic, it appears that Hyperion has stuck out its foot and squashed the one easy-to-find, trusted resource for downloads of stuff like BB1/BB2 for 3.9, whatever the 3.5 updates were, and all of the minor updates for 3.1, correct?  Awesome, good job.  Of course these things can be found on Google, and most Amiga users have probably downloaded backups of what they need... but just...  UGH.  :angryfire:
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 04:13:17 PM by Oldsmobile_Mike »
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Offline eliyahu

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Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 04:19:39 PM »
@Oldsmobile_Mike

no, they didn't. all they did was request he take down four, specific files that contains binaries they have rights to.  and if they don't enforce their rights, they lose them. anyway the site owner decided to throw a tantrum and took everything offline instead of just removing the four files and now everyone is pissed and blaming hyperion.

as always cgutjahr's excellent amiga-news has the details: http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2017-08-00020-EN.html

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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 05:15:38 PM »
Quote from: eliyahu;829575
the site owner decided to throw a tantrum

An Amiga user?  Throw a tantrum?  Shocking, that would never happen!  :laughing:


End result is the same though - anyone want to host these files before they get lost to eternity?  Maybe they could be uploaded to Aminet?  (haha, I know, chances of that ever happening are slim to none).  ;)
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Offline kamelito

Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 05:30:53 PM »
@Olsen
I remember Domino driver that stop to work under OS 3 with a guru.
I did trace the code during hours trying to fix it. I made it not to crash but the mouse pointer stopped being displayed. I used to kill interrupt to be able to trace the driver code under Monam. Great memories, I remember something called SontoskyWB.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: AmigaWorld.de OS3.X patches gone! - Thanks Hyperion!
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 09:37:15 PM »
Quote from: eliyahu;829575
@Oldsmobile_Mike

 anyway the site owner decided to throw a tantrum and took everything offline instead of just removing the four files and now everyone is pissed and blaming hyperion.

-- eliyahu

i really love that. each time a vivid os4 supporter gets disapointed by some odd action reaching beyond his own sentiment and, at least for a while, refrains from further engagement, which is, in fact not a duty, but his very own responsibility and (last but not least) some risk, he immediately gets accused as throwing tantrums, not being supportive enough, treachery and all kinds of stuff .. by the former fellow supporters. well, guys, maybe you are talking to a mirror or a future yourself? there is enough examples of such an awakening..