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Offline madgrizzleTopic starter

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2017, 07:52:41 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;829387
Maybe I missed the point of this thread, but assuming you have a monitor or display device that supports both NTSC and PAL, what's the issue?

Heck, I thought I understood this stuff until this morning.  Its a Dell (I think S2240L) with VGA and HDMI.. and I use HDMI with the VA2000/CX.. Isn't PAL and NTSC an analog thing?

Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;829387
For Workbench and productivity software it won't matter, just select whatever screenmode you want, and for games you can select either PAL or NTSC with WHDLoad/Degrader/etc.


Learning something new every day about my Amiga (didn't know about the WHDLoad tooltype).  Wish I hadn't taken a 25 year hiatus.

Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;829387

Or is the question will a NTSC motherboard + NTSC VA2000/CX work with a PAL Megachip?  Guess, like you said, we'll find out!  ;)


AFAIK, there's no NTSC or PAL variety of VA2000/CX.. certainly didn't have to pick an option when I ordered it.

Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;829387
##SMDH, I can't believe we're still having issues with NTSC vs. PAL in 2017, lol. :laughing:


Hadn't heard of SMDH before.. when I googled it I got "Seriously Degraded Modem Hours"... which I thought was funny considering the era of the computers (I googled again and got the real definition)
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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 08:19:31 PM »
Quote from: madgrizzle;829391
Hadn't heard of SMDH before.. when I googled it I got "Seriously Degraded Modem Hours"... which I thought was funny considering the era of the computers (I googled again and got the real definition)

:roflmao:
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Offline BLTCON0

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 11:48:00 PM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;829369

If you are incredibly fortunate, you might find you already have an 8372AB fitted or 8372B.

The 8372AB is the 8372B, it's just the circuitry of the 8372B inside the packaging of the 8372A, so they separately suffixed a standalone "B" to signify it's a 8372B.

However, it's impossible to encounter such an Agnus in a production A2000. The 8372(A)B Agnus offers a single RAS line while the RAM design of the A2000 requires 2 RAS lines from the Agnus.
On the A3000, they solve this by recreating the separate RAS lines by combining the information from the RAS line and the two highest order address bits. But such circuitry doesn't exist in the A2000.


Quote from: Pat the Cat;829369

Even if the VA2000/CX does work with a PAL megachip, external NTSC equipment will not work, even if the machine is soft switched into NTSC mode (because then the megachip has issues switching an 8375 from PAL to NTSC, which is why there are 2 versions).

If this isn't accurate, then please tell me why there are 2 different versions of the megachip, PAL and NTSC. Just default timing settings?


Yes! No Agnus has the capability to auto-detect the master oscillator frequency! So designing a "plug and play" universal megachip isn't possible.
If it could autodetect whether the motherboard is equipped with a 28.63636 MHz (NTSC) oscillator or a 28.37516 MHz (PAL) one, it could of course also be designed to automatically adjust its bootup timings accordingly. But this would require an independent internal clock inside the Agnus and extra comparator circuitry, which is an unnecessary complexity.

So when you set an Agnus to PAL timings, you're simply more or less just telling it "look, I assure you that the master clock is 28.37516 MHz and I want PAL timings, so each scanline will be 1816 ticks long, even fields will be 313 scanlines high and odd fields will be 312 scanlines high, VBLANK time will be 25/24 scanlines and I want hardware enables/stops at ticks #X and #Y for each scanline"

Similarly, when you set an Agnus to NTSC timings, you're simply telling it "there's a 28.63636 MHz master clock so I want NTSC timings, so even fields will be 263 scanlines high and odd fields will be 262 scanlines high and scanline length will alternate between 1816 and 1824 ticks etc etc"
The above instruction set for example correctly produces the NTSC interlaced field pattern:
-first field (#0) is even, so it has 313 scanlines (odd number), so it begins and ends with a short line (1816)
-second field (#1) is odd, so it has 312 scanlines (even number), it begins with a long line (as field #0 ended with a short line) and thus ends with a short line
-third field (#2) is even, so it has 313 scanlines (odd number), it begins with a long line (as field #1 ended with a short line) and thus ends with a long line
-fourth field (#3) is odd, so it has 312 scanlines (even number), it begins with a short line (as field #2 ended with a long line) and thus ends with a long line

... and the sequence repeats, i.e. fifth field (#4) is identical to #0 etc, so we get the periodic sequence:
- long field ending on short line
- short field ending on short line
- long field ending on long line
- short field ending on long line


Given all that, it's impossible for an Agnus to 'refuse' to be set to PAL timings if an NTSC oscillator is presence, and vice versa.
This leads to the 1% faster "nearly PAL" (when oscillator = NTSC but Agnus timings are PAL)
and 1% slower "nearly NTSC" (when oscillator = PAL but Agnus timings are NTSC) timings, which may well be video-hardware incompatible.
But these are the only video-illegal modes.

Any NTSC video hardware finding an Amiga with an NTSC oscillator and an NTSC-timed Agnus (regardless if it was set via jumpers or soft-switched via the KS 3.x menu) will work just fine.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2017, 02:14:11 PM »
Quote from: BLTCON0;829413
The 8372AB is the 8372B, it's just the circuitry of the 8372B inside the packaging of the 8372A, so they separately suffixed a standalone "B" to signify it's a 8372B.

However, it's impossible to encounter such an Agnus in a production A2000. The 8372(A)B Agnus offers a single RAS line while the RAM design of the A2000 requires 2 RAS lines from the Agnus.
On the A3000, they solve this by recreating the separate RAS lines by combining the information from the RAS line and the two highest order address bits. But such circuitry doesn't exist in the A2000.

(scratches head, checks pin outs from link).

Correct. However, it is STILL worth checking to see what actual Agnus is fitted already, and whether or not there are any board modifications, and also what revision of motherboard is actually in use.

Quote
If this isn't accurate, then please tell me why there are 2 different versions of the megachip, PAL and NTSC. Just default timing settings?
Quote from: BLTCON0;829413



Yes! No Agnus has the capability to auto-detect the master oscillator frequency! So designing a "plug and play" universal megachip isn't possible.


OK. So this particular Amiga will ALWAYS default to PAL and start up in that video mode. Unless madgrizzle wants to fit a switch that lets them start up in either PAL or NTSC.

Quote from: BLTCON0;829413
...
The above instruction set for example correctly produces the NTSC interlaced field pattern:...


Bottom line is, after modifcation with the listed Megachip version (PAL) this particular A2000 might not work correctly with external expansions that demand a correctly timed interlaced NTSC signal. IE, external video expansions. OR graphics slot expansions, because essentially the graphics slot on an Amiga is the external set of connector pins with a few extra control pin signals.

Whether or not madgrizzle gets a working HDMI signal that they can use with their monitor... Will depend on the HDMI adaptors connection and operation.

I don't fancy your chances madgrizzle, but you've taken the plunge already, and it might just work fine.

Or it might not. Whether or not you need to change your display is pretty much in the hands of chance right now. You might need to fit a switch to get the Megachip 2000 to choose NTSC or PAL at startup, that doesn't seem like too much of a big deal to me.

It's just a LOT of people have had issues trying to get decent HDMI output from an Amiga, and adding a chip RAM expansion which defaults to the "opposite" video mode of the built in crystal is just asking for extra trouble. In my opinion.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 02:28:40 PM by Pat the Cat »
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Offline madgrizzleTopic starter

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2017, 07:48:46 PM »
I hear you Pat and appreciate your comments.  I probably was too quick to pull the trigger, but it is what it is.  The nice thing about the VA2000/CX is that its an fpga and the developer is still active.  I'd be more concerned if I had a legacy graphics card, but right now, I'm hopeful with the parameters that can be set for the VA2000/CX that I can get it to work.  There are setting for mode (resolution), hsize, vsize, hoffset and voffset..

Is it correct to say that the megachip itself (not the chip, but the board) is the same regardless of being PAL or NTSC?  So if I find a NTSC Agnus I can pop it in and get a working NTSC megachip?
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Offline BLTCON0

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2017, 10:17:46 PM »
Quote from: madgrizzle;829474
I hear you Pat and appreciate your comments.  I probably was too quick to pull the trigger, but it is what it is.  The nice thing about the VA2000/CX is that its an fpga and the developer is still active.  I'd be more concerned if I had a legacy graphics card, but right now, I'm hopeful with the parameters that can be set for the VA2000/CX that I can get it to work.  There are setting for mode (resolution), hsize, vsize, hoffset and voffset..

Is it correct to say that the megachip itself (not the chip, but the board) is the same regardless of being PAL or NTSC?  So if I find a NTSC Agnus I can pop it in and get a working NTSC megachip?


Yes the board is the same and will happily take as a drop-in replacement the other Agnus.
Matching pairs are:

390544-01 (PAL) and 390544-02 (NTSC) , non Vbb, 2 MB 8375 Agnus
318069-10 (PAL) and 318069-11 (NTSC), Vbb, 2 MB 8375 Agnus

My very own Megachip was originally equipped with a 390544-02 NTSC Agnus (bought it from the US). Used it in soft-switch mode (*) on my otherwise PAL A500 for a while, then replaced it with a 318069-10 one without any issues and eventually with the "proper" 390544-01 one just cause I found one cheap.


(*) Of course, soft-switching after boot up is not recommended as specific software may already have determined the mode and expect it remains unchanged. But if you stick to soft-switching via the early bootup menu, it'll be as good as having an NTSC Agnus.

I doubt the VA2000/CX cares much about that stuff, anyway. Seems to me it just keeps sampling the RGB info on the videoslot and sends it "resized" into a VA2000 videobuffer for display under some native mode, essentially acting as a scandoubler.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2017, 02:41:08 PM »
Quote from: BLTCON0;829488
Yes the board is the same and will happily take as a drop-in replacement the other Agnus.

Not if he's got a skinny Agnus A2000.
 
 I don't think madgrizzle has, seem to recall him mentioning a motherboard upgrade, but the thing is, people do sometimes search for existing answers, and for such people, buying a Megachip 2000 upgrade isn't an option.
 
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Offline BLTCON0

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2017, 08:43:34 PM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;829513
Not if he's got a skinny Agnus A2000.

board = the megachip board, not the A2000 motherboard
 
Quote from: madgrizzle

Is it correct to say that the megachip itself (not the chip, but the board) is the same regardless of being PAL or NTSC? So if I find a NTSC Agnus I can pop it in and get a working NTSC megachip?
 

Offline madgrizzleTopic starter

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 07:08:57 PM »
Just installed megachip.  Booted up to workbench with no issues.  After boot, Amiga Workbench shows 1,912,888 graphics mem.  I was able to run Cannonfodder, which requires 2 MB of chip ram.
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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2017, 07:16:41 PM »
Quote from: madgrizzle;829874
I was able to run Cannonfodder, which requires 2 MB of chip ram.

Always a good test.  I seem to recall buying a Megachip years ago for my A500 for just the same reason.  :lol:
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Offline madgrizzleTopic starter

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2018, 10:37:20 PM »
To add some additional information to the topic, as I have been working on getting a 3000 going, I haven't done anything with my 2000.  I went ahead and connected the output of the 23-pin video to a GBS8220 to see what the PAL megachip would do and though it took some tweaking, the video works well with the workbench.  Whatever incompatibility there might be due to a PAL agnus inside an NTSC amiga is handled by the GBS.  I also tried a game on it (Defenders of the Crown) and it worked as well.  However, you cannot set a tooltype of NTSC for it.  I assume if there is no tooltype, it defaults to PAL and that seems to work.
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Offline midway

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2018, 05:25:06 AM »
Cannonfodder ? That ran on my 1MB Chip mem A2000 in the 90s ?
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2018, 11:33:53 AM »
Quote from: midway;835980
Cannonfodder ? That ran on my 1MB Chip mem A2000 in the 90s ?


With WHDLoad it needs 1.5MB, AFAIR.
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Offline kirk_m

Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2018, 12:11:30 AM »
I've got a PAL megachip in my NTSC A2000...no issues whatsoever.  I also have a PAL megachip in an NTSC A500...again, no issues.
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Offline madgrizzleTopic starter

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Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2018, 02:10:57 PM »
What do you have it connected to?  Are you going direct to a monitor or something else?
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Offline kirk_m

Re: PAL vs NTSC Megachip
« Reply #29 from previous page: February 12, 2018, 08:55:08 PM »
On the 500, I have an Indivision ECS.  On the a2000, I have it passing out through an SCART to one of those HDMI upscalers.
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