To Vampire or not

[Iggy]

* The claim is that an FPU is done, and was done more than 12 months ago.
* The only testing Gunnar is interested in, is that can be done in assembler code and that is a "killer app" for the Apollo Core FPU, the way Riva is a "killer app" for the AMMX instructions.
* The claim is that they offered the Apollo Core FPU 12 months ago to "the amiga coder community" (whoever they are?), but that noone showed any interest in it
* Gunnar wants to do a different FPU, a new one, even better, faster, more amazing etc.
* But only if there is enough interest in "the amiga coder community" to work man hours for the "team".
* Gunnar does not care one squat about old legacy programs that use FPU, for those, if anyone is interested, someone can very well slap together an FPU emulator.
* No FPU for current Vampires. The super duper new FPU is for the next generation of cards only, because Gunnar now sees potential in shiny new FPGAs that are coming.

All quite scary, if true. :confused:

[kolla]

All quite scary, if true. :confused:

I would be happy to be wrong, but this is the essence of what Gunnar has stated on IRC and on the Apollo Core forum. Sadly he has a tendency to delete what is written on the forum, so it can be worth while to take screenshots and copy text for future reference, wayback machine only visits so often

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931

[Iggy]

I would be happy to be wrong, but this is the essence of what Gunnar has stated on IRC and on the Apollo Core forum. Sadly he has a tendency to delete what is written on the forum, so it can be worth while to take screenshots and copy text for future reference, wayback machine only visits so often

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931

Thanks for the reference.

"While the APOLLO FPU was successfully used in some customer project, for usage in 68K AMIGA OS some more testing was found required.
The Apollo-team did ask for AMIGA coders community to help testing 12month ago - in this time no coders applied for this.
So it became clear that the FPU priority in AMIGA world is not very high.
This makes sense as the majority of AMIGA software does not use FPU at all.
While we have a FPU now, we also know that the FPGA technology will allow to reach floating point performance 1000 times faster than existing Motorola 68060 CPUs we need to look for a solution which we can use long time and which allow benefit from these FPGA technologies. Therefore its advisable to verify and review the design to make sure that its future-proof.

Yes, scary is definitely the word.
I might go as far as crazy, but that would just bring on the flames.

Why would "coders" be needed for testing?
"1000 times faster"? - Right now, infinitely faster, because it doesn't exist (at least not to the community at large).

"Future-proof" - His goal is a "future-proof" 68K design (or at least the fpu)?

Hmm...the question becomes, can I rely on someone with this level of stability?

[Niding]

Based on whats been said on IRC I get the impression that Gunnar sticks to his/their own priorities based on internal roadmap.
He has asked for FPU code, something that will push the limits, and noone has stepped up to make a case why he/they should prioritise FPU over other things they are working on. The list of things to do is long, and there has to be priorities made.
The conclusion seems to be; well, if noone can be bothered to work with them on FPU code, then its not really that important to warrant pushing it futher up on the roadmap.

Like Video+Audio thru HDMI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwbIdKz0AoY&t=40s

[trixster]

For me it's a No at the moment. I have nice classic accelerators for my A1200 and A4000 , my A4000 has rtg already. and I'm not massively interested in turbo charging my A500 as I like it at stock.

I say "at the moment" because I haven't ruled out vampire, I think it looks like excellent hardware but I'd like to see which way it goes and also see what materialises for A1200 and A4000 first. I'm in no rush.

[jack-3d]

I hope they will make FPU soon, not because of games and demos, but to silence 90% of the critics.

Anyway Vampire is good, but if you have 040/40 in your A2000 I would keep it and buy A500 or another A2000 for Vampire 500.

[Iggy]

I hope they will make FPU soon, not because of games and demos, but to silence 90% of the critics.

Anyway Vampire is good, but if you have 040/40 in your A2000 I would keep it and buy A500 or another A2000 for Vampire 500.

I hope they get to that stage myself, because while I am no longer in direct contact with Gunnar, I do wish him and the Apollo team all the best in their endeavors.
At one time, we had a common interest in seeing support across Amiga platforms.
But the majority of us left in the community (myself included) each have our own priorities  (and enough eccentricities) that we sometimes rub each other the wrong way.

Anyway, I see this issue (the lack of a fpu)as a valid complaint.

And I'm not sure I share this "Super 68K" fpga vision with Gunnar.
It wouldn't have enough compatibility with legacy hardware as he seems to envision it, and isn't that the point of going back to the 68K (for better legacy compatibility)?

[OlafS3]

All quite scary, if true. :confused:

Are you and Kolla now playing ping pong? Ping bash on Gunnar, Pong bash on Gunnar? It is getting boring...

if you do not like it do not buy it...

Gunnar always stated that people should not buy it for what it might offer in future but for what it offer

There are long waiting list with people only moaning that they have to wait not because of missing FPU. If someone bought it and is not happy with it I am pretty sure that he can sell it to more thankful people

Iggy you are MOS guy, PPC fan and Aros hater, a deadly combination regarding Vampire. If you do not like it do not buy it. But this game toegether with Kollar is becoming boring. Sometimes people like you and others moan about me praising Aros but you are not different and not better

[OlafS3]

I hope they will make FPU soon, not because of games and demos, but to silence 90% of the critics.

Anyway Vampire is good, but if you have 040/40 in your A2000 I would keep it and buy A500 or another A2000 for Vampire 500.

they asked if someone could offer them a showcase for FPU like RIVA was for AMMX. Long long silence including Kollar and others. Just talking and requesting. Then Gunnar stated it is on To Do List but to do it right it needs time to integrate and test. They have limited resources and think other parts are more important for people but it will be done later. MMU never ever was promised, I know that 100% but despite of that certain people are claiming that Apollo is useless rubbish without it and Gunnar promised it. Clear answer... It is not and Gunnar never promised it. But that will people not hinder to still claiming it. Fortunately the important people are normally too busy to read all the nonsense.

[Iggy]

Are you and Kolla now playing ping pong? Ping bash on Gunnar, Pong bash on Gunnar? It is getting boring...

if you do not like it do not buy it...

Gunnar always stated that people should not buy it for what it might offer in future but for what it offer

There are long waiting list with people only moaning that they have to wait not because of missing FPU. If someone bought it and is not happy with it I am pretty sure that he can sell it to more thankful people

Iggy you are MOS guy, PPC fan and Aros hater, a deadly combination regarding Vampire. If you do not like it do not buy it. But this game toegether with Kollar is becoming boring. Sometimes people like you and others moan about me praising Aros but you are not different and not better

I'm thrilled that you're bored, since maybe it will slow down the spread of such nonsense.
I am in no way an AROS hater, I currently am contributing to the drive to keep a roof over Kalamatee's head, and I have a few friends in the AROS development community.

If you can point to one comment bemoaning AROS that I've made, repeat it.

As to Gunnar's weird "I have it, but you can't get it, because my end goal is the imposible" logic, hey if you have a problem with me for calling out someone on their public statements, that is your problem.

BTW - I don't care what bores you, we aren't here for your entertainment.
Its a public forum, so stop trying to bully me, because you don't have logic on your side in this one.

[OlafS3]

I'm thrilled that you're bored, since maybe it will slow down the spread of such nonsense.
I am in no way an AROS hater, I currently am contributing to the drive to keep a roof over Kalamatee's head, and I have a few friends in the AROS development community.

If you can point to one comment bemoaning AROS that I've made, repeat it.

As to Gunnar's weird "I have it, but you can't get it, because my end goal is the imposible" logic, hey if you have a problem with me for calling out someone on their public statements, that is your problem.

BTW - I don't care what bores you, we aren't here for your entertainment.
Its a public forum, so stop trying to bully me, because you don't have logic on your side in this one.

no you entertain yourself and Kolla

that is not better

And yes I remember comments from you that downtalk Aros. I will look for it just for the fun to proof you wrong

[Iggy]

no you entertain yourself and Kolla

that is not better

And yes I remember comments from you that downtalk Aros. I will look for it just for the fun to proof you wrong

You do that, it will keep you occupied.
And in the meanwhile, I'll still be supporting NG OS' (even though I've got my preferences, the worst that you're going to find is that I've placed AROS second). :hammer:

[Djole]

Its funny reading all these posts, there are 2 men (whiners) crying about something Gunnar might have said while the Vampire is growing every day, bringing new features and new users. Its clear the goal is to bring out a standalone board as fast as possible with a fast 68k, improved AGA, sound, a new compatible platform. Its clear it will never be 100% compatible, but compatible is a relative thing, a1200 is not 100% compatible to a500, 060 is not 100% compatible with 020 etc....The main complaint is the FPU which might come when other priorities are done. I wonder what the haters will whine about then ? Its clear vampire is a great success and it has set a new standard in Amiga hardware and software. If Aros continues to develop at a fast pace, we will have a open Amiga platform with modern hardware and open OS.

[curtis]

Okay.  I have my answer and really appreciate those who were able to stay on target.

However, this thread has become just another fanboy argument so it's time to ask the moderators to CLOSE THIS THREAD.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SamuraiCrow]

Adding to what Djole just wrote, there was a comment in the now deleted and restarted FPU thread on the Apollo-Core forum that modern software for floating point seldom uses raw FPU functions anyway but instead usually uses SSE2 on the Intel as a minimum so that 4 times the computation can take place.  I doubt there is room on the current generation of FPGAs to do a full floating point vector unit so it is likely that Gunnar is just finishing up what he can do with the current generation before he even thinks about starting the next generation.  Sometimes I wish I had his discipline to finish one thing before starting the next.

[Iggy]

Adding to what Djole just wrote, there was a comment in the now deleted and restarted FPU thread on the Apollo-Core forum that modern software for floating point seldom uses raw FPU functions anyway but instead usually uses SSE2 on the Intel as a minimum so that 4 times the computation can take place.  I doubt there is room on the current generation of FPGAs to do a full floating point vector unit so it is likely that Gunnar is just finishing up what he can do with the current generation before he even thinks about starting the next generation.  Sometimes I wish I had his discipline to finish one thing before starting the next.

Thanks Sam, that's all I've ever said (or whined depending on your POV :angry:).

Okay.  I have my answer and really appreciate those who were able to stay on target.

However, this thread has become just another fanboy argument so it's time to ask the moderators to CLOSE THIS THREAD.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"so it's time to ask the moderators to CLOSE THIS THREAD"

I think I mentioned that awhile ago (that you'd already had your answer), so you have a point.
But I don't let character assassination go easily.

And since apps under AROS68K often require an fpu...

Anyway, I guess we aren't supposed to ask for it, even if its been mentioned as an intended feature.
So, for now (since the guy that started the thread DID get his answer), I'll let it drop.
And those that want to remind Kolla, SamCrow, myself (or anyone else that's brought it up) what b*stards we are for mentioning it, go for it (he whined ;-) ).