AmigaOne clones?

[Tigger]

Alkemyst wrote:
ppl are focusing too much on the Protection to why they have no choice of PPC mobos to run Aos4 on.

If anyone thinks that the dongle code in the Aos4 rom is to just restrict choice & keep MAI & Eyetech the only mobo providers for AOS4
are ignoring the FACTS.

Even with out the protection code, Aos4 will still not run on the pegasos or any other PPC mobo that may come onto the market
unless Hyperiona gets a mobo & docs to write an amiga HAL for that mobo.

You are the one ignoring the facts, Terrasoft sells the identical MAI motherboard for $150 less, without the magic amiga dongle of doom.   It will run on that board, period if not for the dongle code, it will take the hackers a day to fix that issue.   Despite posting of old Eyetech messages (ie lies) lets be real clear hear, Eyetech is a distributer for MAI boards in this case, thats it.   The other MAI boards dont work with AmigaOS because Eyetech put a dongle on the board, period.

So infact they would not have to go Through all the trouble of a dongle to restrict choice.
They would just have to not write any HAL's for any other PPC mobos when they come to market.

So what would be the point in Making as much of Aos4 source code in portable C & having HAL Hardware Abstraction Layer if the whole plan is to run it on one mobo type.

Because when MAI upgrades their board they want to be able to move it to a new one, and MAI will upgrade it because their larger customers (Terrasoft among them) will want it, and little Eyetech will have to move to the new boards or not have boards to sell.   And your comments about the HAL and "portable" C would point to you having less knowledge about those topics then at very least most of the engineers on this board.
    -Tig
 

[Alkemyst]

[Thellenbow]

Tigger wrote:
 The fastest x86 chip is not only cheaper then the fastest G4, its also much more powerful.   Current Dual G4 Mac at 1.25 Ghz is getting eaten up by single 3 Ghz P4 systems at less cost.   In 4 days we may see faster Macs, but all I have to do to beat them is talk about dual P4s and its all over again.
 

Tig

IMHO, I think is functionality. P4's and AMD's might be faster, but they cannot do as many things. Not being an expert on processors, I could be wrong, but comparing the RIST vs CIST(?) design, the RIST has greater functionality and uses less energy. The fact that you don't need a bunch of cards to do things on a Mac, where as a PC can't do anything without a bunch of cards is the point.  ;-)

[Alkemyst]

And your comments about the HAL and "portable" C would point to you having less knowledge about those topics then at very least most of the engineers on this board.
-Tig

My comment about C & HAL have come from what Hyperion have said.

They said they re-done things in C & used HAL Technic to make it easyer to port in future.

Hyperion said that a NEW HAL would have to be made for each Make of PPC mobo

[Tigger]

Alkemyst wrote:
No the Facts are that this petition was started way before
a Terrasoft came on the sence to sell the mobo.

I have trouble believing that since Terrasoft has been working with MAI longer then Eyetech.   Are you saying that the petition was started when Eyetech still thought they could design there own board??

Only you have brought that up at this point & only now after months & months of this bebait.

Terrasoft stuff has been posted for months, we had the whole, we arent those boards, we designed those boards, etc from Eyetech, and then finally the truth came out with we are putting a special rom on the MAI board so you have to buy it from us.  

PPL are moaning about not being able to run it on PPC hardware of there choice.

From Amiga Incs (and frankly Hyperions) it makes no sense to lock the OS to the Eyetech board.   They get paid on unit sales, if they want to protect the OS from Piracy, put a real USB dongle on it, and let everyone buy it.  Wayne would have a dozen topics on how to run the OS on Dual Mac G4s, IMacs, Terrasoft boards etc, if that was the case.  Instead we have one supplier who blames Motorola for their inability to deliver boards one day before christmas.

As ppl think its just the dongle thats the issue with out understanding the HAL aspect.

It is just the dongle issue, if there werent a dongle issue, the HAL issue would be handled by the community.   Linux runs on the Macs, on the other PPC boards, there is enough info out there to make an Amiga OS run on the other PPC machines, its not that big an issue.    The real issue is that even once 4.0 is out, I cant buy it without buying a very expensive (and slow) motherboard.    Every single day of the year, Apple sells more PPC computers then Eyetech will sell for the entire year of 2003.   There are over 15 million PPC macs sitting around, is that really a market that they should be uninterested in running their OS on???   Dont want OS 4.0 on a laptop???
     -Tig
       

[Alkemyst]

I have trouble believing that since Terrasoft has been working with MAI longer then Eyetech. Are you saying that the petition was started when Eyetech still thought they could design there own board??

Most ppl here knew nothing about Terrasoft & the MAI mobo untill lately.

No where on the petition does it mention Terrasoft & for a non dongled version of the board to run a non dongled version of Aos4 to run on it.

If the petiton was about the fact Terrasoft sells the same mobo  & no aos4 for it then yeah the petition would have a point, but it does not.

From Amiga Incs (and frankly Hyperions) it makes no sense to lock the OS to the Eyetech board. They get paid on unit sales, if they want to protect the OS from Piracy, put a real USB dongle on it, and let everyone buy it. Wayne would have a dozen topics on how to run the OS on Dual Mac G4s, IMacs, Terrasoft boards etc, if that was the case. Instead we have one supplier who blames Motorola for their inability to deliver boards one day before christmas.

Amiga.inc & Hyperion already said if a supplier comes forward with a USB dongle for there mobo then that would be concidered.
 
 

It is just the dongle issue, if there werent a dongle issue, the HAL issue would be handled by the community. Linux runs on the Macs, on the other PPC boards, there is enough info out there to make an Amiga OS run on the other PPC machines, its not that big an issue. The real issue is that even once 4.0 is out, I cant buy it without buying a very expensive (and slow) motherboard. Every single day of the year, Apple sells more PPC computers then Eyetech will sell for the entire year of 2003. There are over 15 million PPC macs sitting around, is that really a market that they should be uninterested in running their OS on??? Dont want OS 4.0 on a laptop???
-Tig

 
Aos4 is not open source & is not linux.
 

 
 

[Tigger]

Alkemyst wrote:

Most ppl here knew nothing about Terrasoft & the MAI mobo untill lately.

Lets be real clear on this, this topic is not about the petition, this topic is about OS 4.0 being donglized to the Eyetech board.   And just because you didnt know about Terrasoft, doesnt mean that the MAI board didnt exist before the petition.

Amiga.inc & Hyperion already said if a supplier comes forward with a USB dongle for there mobo then that would be concidered.

Explain how that would work, lets see, I would have to pay Hyperion to write a USB dongle driver for their OS, then they would have to release a special version that used the USB Dongle (not to be confused with Cool AmigaOne Rom Dongle (TM)) for its antipiracy feature, and then I have to buy computers (or motherboards) that anyone can buy themselves and put them together and sell them so noone gets AOS 4.0 without my cool dongle with it.
Instead they could have sold 1 package with the dongle and this whole issue would have been moot.

Aos4 is not open source & is not linux.

Gee, thats news to all of us here, we were all confused and thought the Aos4 was open source and Linux.    See you really dont understand why what I said was important to the HAL do you???   Windows isnt Open Source either, yet someone you can run windows on some pretty weird devices if you know what you are doing, and work on it.   But you can buy windows by itself, just like you can pretty much all OS's, except Aos 4.0, got to buy an AmigaOne with it or run it on an old Amiga with a Phase 5 board (and I'm still pretty sure we'll see some form of copy protection on that) or that it will be "different"   then the AmigaOne version.
     -Tig  

 
 

[Kronos]

, except Aos 4.0, got to buy an AmigaOne with it or run it on an old Amiga with a Phase 5 board (and I'm still pretty sure we'll see some form of copy protection on that) or that it will be "different" then the AmigaOne version.

Offcourse that will bê different:
a) It won't have drivers for VIA/MAI (IDE/PCI/PS2).
b) It will need a real KickROM (3.1)
c) The bootstrap is completly different to th one used by PCCBoot.

[Alkemyst]

Lets be real clear on this, this topic is not about the petition, this topic is about OS 4.0
being donglized to the Eyetech board. And just because you didnt know about Terrasoft, doesnt mean
that the MAI board didnt exist before the petition.

I siad most ppl i did not say that i did not know.

You are useing  TerraSoft  as an argument for the Petition when no other person was, when the
petition was made.

Explain how that would work, lets see, I would have to pay Hyperion to write a USB dongle
driver for their OS, then they would have to release a special version that used the USB Dongle (not
to be confused with Cool AmigaOne Rom Dongle (TM)) for its antipiracy feature, and then I have to buy
computers (or motherboards) that anyone can buy themselves and put them together and sell them so
noone gets AOS 4.0 without my cool dongle with it.
Instead they could have sold 1 package with the dongle and this whole issue would have been
moot.

they could have sold 1 package with the dongle and this whole issue would have been
moot.

Cool some one sees a nice looking PPC mobo buys Aos4 + USB dongle for all gets home & oh boy no HAL
yet made for it.

Or HAL was made by the community but Aos4 run flaky on that modo.
Ill just email Hyperion & complain.

Gee, thats news to all of us here, we were all confused and thought the Aos4 was open source
and Linux. See you really dont understand why what I said was important to the HAL do you??? Windows
isnt Open Source either, yet someone you can run windows on some pretty weird devices if you know
what you are doing, and work on it. But you can buy windows by itself, just like you can pretty much
all OS's, except Aos 4.0, got to buy an AmigaOne with it or run it on an old Amiga with a Phase 5
board (and I'm still pretty sure we'll see some form of copy protection on that) or that it will be
"different" then the AmigaOne version.
-Tig

i didnt say how important the HAL is Hyperion did.

Even in the x86 stand Windows does not run right on all mobos.
who gets the blame when that happends windows most of the time.

I would not want Aos4 to get blamed when it was the HW at fault or the badly coded HAL.

But avgjoe would know nothing about HAL & would not know that the AmigaPPC he/she had just bought
 had a badly coded HAL.

Hyperion would get email from loads of ppl blaming them.

The reason such things work on the linux platform cos most linux users are not the avg joe & know a
bit more about computers.

But in the end your aproach makes copying as easy as can be CD to CD.

The point of protection is NOT IF it will be will not be cracked.


The point is to make it hard as you can for the cracker & the user of the cracked version.


I can see by some of your comments that you have not been follwing all the events of the Aone & Aos4.
alot of your question have already been answered  by hyperion, here & on the Aos4 ML.

[Tigger]

Alkemyst wrote:

i didnt say how important the HAL is Hyperion did.

Hyperion??  Or Lawyer boy???   We were explaining HAL to Ben a year ago, so dont take too much of his vast technical knowledge (NOT) to heart.

But in the end your aproach makes copying as easy as can be CD to CD.

No, read my approach, AmigaOS 4.0 bundle is
1) Manual
2) CD
3) USB Dongle

Its no easier to pirate then the AmigaOne method but I now have doubled the distributers for the official boards, plus we'll see it run on Pegasus, plus we'll see someone (maybe even Terrasoft) run it on the Macs.   Is this really that hard to understand.

The point is to make it hard as you can for the cracker & the user of the cracked version.

And the Rom is basically bad in two ways.  One you have have the dongle on your motherboard, your dongle goes bad, you have to send your computer back.  Two you have limited you customers to people with Teron PPC boards with dongles soldered to them, not people with Teron PPC boards, not people with PPC boards, but one specific distributers board.  What happens when Terrasoft or one of the other distributers buys alot of boards and the smallest buyer (ie Eyetech) gets none that month.   Gee no amigas this month, but thats ok, because when we get ours we'll have a CARD on our boards.  

I can see by some of your comments that you have not been follwing all the events of the Aone & Aos4.
alot of your question have already been answered  by hyperion, here & on the Aos4 ML.

I see you believe whatever a belgian lawyer tells you whether it makes technical sense or not.    The original AmigaOS has been moved to at least 3 different non-amiga hardware platforms the best known beeing the Dracos, its strange they needed only the RKMs to do this in all 3 cases, yet Ben believes that its impractical for the new AmigaOS to run on anything but one board from one distributer.
     -Tig

   





[/quote]

@Tigger

when you say HAL he probably thinks of a movie

[Alkemyst]

i Get my info from the Aone & Aos4 ML.

Maybe you should to.


And the fact is dongle or no dongle if there is a lot of Os4 copying then its all over.


THE USB dongle can be cracked as well.
 
the hope is that enough ppl will buy Aone/Aos4 before it cracked.
 
some ppl say no protection at all very good for the users in the sort term but bad for the Aos4 coders thus no more Aos versions thus bad for the users.
& let it run on every type of PPC mobo huge choice for the users millions of AmigaOs users running copied version of Aos4.
 
But very little money for the Aos4 coders.
 
All firms do whats best for them first to keep then afloat.
The customers & users always come second weather you see it or not.

The only time they ever give customers/users what they want is if THEY can see gain by it & that gain is always £ first & form most.

 
Sometimes you get what you want & sometimes you dont.

If i had a new car making firm but all i could afford was to only sell it in one colour then that has to be that.
but there will  be ppl who would not buy the car cos of the colour & will say to that im cutting my own throat cos
im not given them more choice of colour & will be limiting my sale cos if it.

But they just dont undertand the cos upfront of given them wehat they want would kill my firm off out right.
When the sales of my one colour only car makes me just enough money to offer more choice of colours then i will do so.
Then i can afford to give the  customers more of what they want.
But i will only give them what they want if it brings me more money.

I will not give them what they want just cos its what they want if there would be no gain in money.
 
Aos4 is like a new Babe it need restriction just like a new babe untill it grown enough with in those
restriction to be able to stand on it own 2 feet.

in alot of cases in the computer & console market, giving to users & customers what the want strate away cost a HUGE amount of money.
Even  selling the Hardware at a Loss to keep it cheap to make it back on the software later on.

But to do that you will need HUGE reserves of money to hold out untill the scale of sales make a profit.

Aos4 can not do that.

[Tigger]

Alkemyst wrote:
i Get my info from the Aone & Aos4 ML.

Maybe you should to.

That would be the same mailing list that gave us such important tidbits as "this isnt an MAI board", "we designed this board all ourselves", "we manufacture the AmigaOne", "all boards will be delivered before Christmas"   Yeah you are right, I dont find it full of alot of factual data there.  

And the fact is dongle or no dongle if there is a lot of Os4 copying then its all over.

THE USB dongle can be cracked as well.

Sure, just like the Cool Amigaone Rom Dongle (CARD), but the USB dongle allows people to buy the OS to try their other platforms, there is no such product with the CARD (tm) approach that Eyetech has implemented and so anyone who wants to try and run AmigaOS on a PPC board they have around will be FORCED to pirate the OS.   Gee that seems like a good way to prevent piracy, dont let people buy the OS.
 

the hope is that enough ppl will buy Aone/Aos4 before it cracked.

If that were true then they should make it available to the most amount of people they can, they are not, AOS4.0 is good for Eyetech and thats about it.
 

& let it run on every type of PPC mobo huge choice for the users millions of AmigaOs users running copied version of Aos4.
 
But very little money for the Aos4 coders.
 
All firms do whats best for them first to keep then afloat.

First of all there are not millions of AmigaOS users, there have not been millions of AmigaOS users for years, add to that that over 1/2 the professional Amiga Users out there have no interest in the Amiga One because it wont run their hardware.    I have yet to figure out why limiting the amount of people who can run your OS (Amiga Inc/Hyperion) is the way for the OS company to maximize profit, they dont teach that in economics here, maybe you can explain it.   I want to buy a copy of AmigaOS 4.0, but not an AmigaOne, why wont they let me do that, doesnt that seem like it would increase sales, and thus make more money for the company???   Or is Eyetech giving kickbacks to Amiga Inc for each unit, which is why we are paying $150 premiums on CARD enabled Teron boards??
     -Tig

     

[T_Bone]

Minion wrote:
I have to say that when working as a HP/Compaq engineer, when I meet IBM engineers on site they're generally arseholes.

Yea, I'm sure where they work made all the difference in the world. I'm sure there are no arseholes working at Compaqard?
 :-o

[Paul_Gadd]

Lambs to the slaughter,

Eyetech and Amiga inc are liars and the quicker you hero worshipers deal with that the better,

Face facts the TeronONE board and OS4 is a SCAM to force Amiga zealots to buy already out of date machines.

Paul_Gadd right on man.