AmigaOne clones?

[Tigger]

Troels_E wrote:

I really don't see why people can't understand that Hyperion have to take every step possible against piracy. Our userbase is VERY small and they have to ensure a certain revenue.

Understand, the dongle is not there to guarantee software sales, the dongle is there to guarantee hardware sales to Eyetech.  The dongle will be broken in a day, two days worst case.   Amiga Inc has encouraged piracy of their new OS by locking it to a hardware platform that has an Eyetech premium on it.   We could have the OS running on all the mac models, (and we will it just will be done as a pirate copy), instead we have a single source motherboard from our sole distributer as our last great hope.
     -Tig

[Kronos]

@Tigger

OS4(warez) on Apple-HW ?
Ain't gone work due to missing drivers for the HW.

OS4 on Teron-boards by TerraSoft ?
Should be easy and you might be right with 2 days.

OS4 on Pegasos ?
Should be possible, but a bit harder (different SB/BIOS).

[Tigger]

Kronos wrote:
@Tigger

OS4(warez) on Apple-HW ?
Ain't gone work due to missing drivers for the HW.

OS4 on Teron-boards by TerraSoft ?
Should be easy and you might be right with 2 days.

OS4 on Pegasos ?
Should be possible, but a bit harder (different SB/BIOS).

Kronos,

Though it will take some work, they have macs running Linux, Be etc, it will take some work, but drivers will get written for OS4 to put it on the Mac, with support from Amiga Inc we could have started out with that as one of the supported platforms.   I agree with your other comments.
        -Tig

[Kronos]

@Tigger

I had a discusion about that with Ben some time ago, and it seems that
Hyperion plan to keep the HAL closed up, making it very very hard to
write new base-drivers (PCI/IDE/..) for it.

I really doubt that there are enough people out there who are willing
to make it happen. Real shame when that (OS4 on Apple) could have
been the biggest market for OS4, and with an open HAL it would have
happened with next to no work for Hyperion.

[Tigger]

With a known hardware platform (the Teron board) plus the other version of the OS running on the PPC cards, its really not that big an issue.   Give a dozen Amiga geeks a weekend and its likely to happen, but it wont be 1000s of sales for Amiga Inc, because you cant buy AOS 4.0 with a USB dongle ready for installation on PPC hardware.  
     -Tig

[neofree]

Tigger:

This may be true, but I work for HP, and they told us themselves that they are #2 to IBM.  IBM isn't just sales of computers.  They do a lot of service and software related things too.  It may be true that Dell and HP sell more units, but overall company value IBM is at #1 currently.

[neofree]

Well, I've started a big topic...

After reading everyone's arguments I really do think that Amiga should rethink the proprietary move.  Amiga has said themselves that they are a software company now, and they would benefit by their software being easier to run on various platforms.  I don't mind paying $50-$100 for an OS.  But I do mind paying too much for hardware.

That all being said, I am studying computer electronics and plan to design a small computer in the next few years...  To those out there with a litle bit more of hardware knowledge...  How hard is design of motherboards for the PowerPC vs. Intel/AMD?  I've read enough about the PC that I think it would be a very hard task to design a PC clone.  (Plus hard to market.)  Is it comparibly difficult for a PPC motherboard?  And is PPC truely better then Intel/AMD?  If so, can someone explain why?

Thanks,

Neofree

[Tigger]

neofree wrote:
Tigger:

This may be true, but I work for HP, and they told us themselves that they are #2 to IBM.  IBM isn't just sales of computers.  They do a lot of service and software related things too.  It may be true that Dell and HP sell more units, but overall company value IBM is at #1 currently.

First of all the discussion wasnt about #1 company value, and frankly depending on what we are counting to represent company value, (sales, stock value, profits, etc) we can sort those 3 companies in many ways.  None of them are the #1 company in anything but their field.   We were talking about selling computers,  and worldwide sales this year, both Dell & HP (HP+Compaq) exceed unit sales of IBM.    The big 5 accounted for almost 50% of worldwide sales of appox 140 million computers.   Total Apple sales less then 3 million units, Dell sold over 4 PCs last year for every mac sold.      If you want to see us make your HP computers, come visit and I'll take you to see the HP lines at work.
      -Tig

[Tigger]

neofree wrote:
That all being said, I am studying computer electronics and plan to design a small computer in the next few years...  To those out there with a litle bit more of hardware knowledge...  How hard is design of motherboards for the PowerPC vs. Intel/AMD?  

I've read enough about the PC that I think it would be a very hard task to design a PC clone.  (Plus hard to market.)  Is it comparibly difficult for a PPC motherboard?  And is PPC truely better then Intel/AMD?  If so, can someone explain why?

Thanks,
Neofree

Its not any harder to use PPC vs x86, the issue is that if you really want to do a motherboard (with PCI slots etc) you are going to need northbridge and southbridge chips or roll your own (I wouldnt suggest choice 2) and there are alot more x86 bridge chips then PPC (MAI and Apple (which isnt really Apples, but thats what it says on the chip, and I'm tired of explaining the chips real heritage).   I believe are the only two modern ones).   The fastest x86 chip is not only cheaper then the fastest G4, its also much more powerful.   Current Dual G4 Mac at 1.25 Ghz is getting eaten up by single 3 Ghz P4 systems at less cost.   In 4 days we may see faster Macs, but all I have to do to beat them is talk about dual P4s and its all over again.   However I am going to make a comment about you designing a new computer.      DONT.    Its a silly quest, its Cervates all over again, and it really is just a windmill.   If you want to design something yourself, design something useful.   Get a Analog Devices or TI kit and make it into a sound card that works like you want, or build an embedded system that digitizes video, or figure out how to make some cool PCI card work in the AmigaOne or Pegasus, or get a PCI build card, and make a PCI card that does something useful to you, someone else, or just fun to play with.   At least a dozen people on this board have designed a computer motherboard, for most it was a waste of time that could have been used on not repeating what 100's if not 1000's had already done.  
    -Tig

           

[neofree]

I think company value is (or atleast was recently) more important then you think.  HP and Compaq were both hurting really badly.  There was a good chance of at least one of the companies getting close to bankrupcy.  IBM had a lot less trouble during this time.  "The New HP" has recovered, but it's value today is only what one of the two were seperately before the downfall that happened before the merger.  IBM is very strong in enterprise solutions.  They take on huge contracts.  And the service industry (such as taking on the responsibility of an entire IT department of another company) is growing a lot and is keeping these companies where they are.  Last I knew, IBM was aproximately 2 times the value of the "New HP".  I think it was HP's own Carly who recognized this and wanted to make a strong effort in making HP mean as much as IBM.  I don't know if they'll do it but hey they can try.  

Neofree

[neofree]

About the computer, I was only planning on making an 8 or 16 bit machine with very inexpensive components.  It is mostly for a sense of accomplishment, but there is a special market it will actually have a chance to make some money in.

Neofree

[Madgun68]

Say anything negative about any pathetic amiga company Elbox, Amiga inc, Eyetech, etc and your straight away chopped down by people who clearly WILL defend anything that Amiga companies do (GOOD OR BAD) to make them sound like they are some sort of "I love Amiga" hippy,

Right. As if you'd have anything POSITIVE to say.. Ever. I don't see how a "I love Amiga" hippy is any better/worse than a "I hate Amiga" hippy. Then again, what else would you have to post about?

For ####s sakes people look at my avatar and now try and defend your beloved hero`s, people clearly should not be defending thieves.

Ho ho ho. A thief, err, pot's calling the kettle black.

[Minion]

I have to say that when working as a HP/Compaq engineer, when I meet IBM engineers on site they're generally arseholes.

@Paul_Gadd
Put a sock in it will you

[L8-X]

Regarding the Eyetech aspect, I seem to remember reading somewhere that at the first attempt at making the A1 was a total disaster for them, the H/W design wasn`t very good they had trouble with northbridges or southbridges or london bridges can`t really remember. Anyway they also had HUGE probs with the firmware which never ran at all, and in the end Eyetech lost a bundle on it.

Then they saw the teron which was all in a far better board and they could get it at a reasonable price, so they went for that instead.

They could have just let it all end and pull out of the market altogether, but they stuck at it. I don`t know what deals A.inc/hyperion/Eyetech did, but I do know this....if I owned a Co. I would be trying to get the best deal possible for my money spent investing in the market. If I can get all sales of the OS tied to MY h/w I`m gonna be pretty happy.

I think that maybe A.inc had to let Eyetech have sole h/w rights for a short period, at least 1 yr or so so that they get the chance to recoup some cash.
I also don`t think that there will be many "clones" if any at all, for the simple reason there isn`t enough users to support them.

[Fats]

L8-X wrote:

Then they saw the teron which was all in a far better board and they could get it at a reasonable price, so they went for that instead.

What I always read was that when they discovered the Teron, MAI only had very expensive demo boards ($6000USD) and not cheap boards and that from then they co-developed a cheaper board by deciding on the SPECS and then let the layout and production of the board be done by an Asian company (which is very normal in this branche).
Or is there proove that the cheaper boards existed before the contacts between Eyetech and MAI ?

[L8-X]

Had a dig around and this is what is said on the Eyetech site......

Is the AmigaOneG3-SE the same as the MAI Teron Cx? No. During the period leading up to the OS4 development agreement being signed we evaluated the Articia S northbridge chip for possible use in a redesigned AmigaOne. We concluded that it was the most cost-effective chip for the design and proceeded to draw up some new specifications for an uprated, more cost-effectively engineered AmigaOne, the AmigaOneG3-SE. Clearly using the Articia S instead of Escena's custom northbridge design meant that both the schematic design and the PCB layout would be entirely new. MAI logic are a chipset manufacturer, not a PPC motherboard manufacturer, but they had commissioned a low volume, high cost evaluation board, the Teron Cx, to help sell their chipsets. The Teron Cx was never designed to, or intended to, go into volume production. We therefore asked them if they could recommend a design company who was familiar with using the Articia S in PPC motherboard design. They recommended the same (Far Eastern) company that designed their Teron Cx evaluation board.

The new Eyetech AmigaOne design obviously shares a lot of commonality with the Teron Cx board, but more than a cursory glance at the specifications (ATA speed, integrated ethernet, custom firmware, number of active PCI/AGP slots etc) - and the price - of both boards should be enough to convince most people that they really are different designs.

However if you remain unconvinced you are of course perfectly welcome to purchase the Teron Cx evaluation board. It costs $3900, misses many features of the AmigaOneG3-SE, and won't run OS4.

@Fats

My explanation wasn`t explained very well!  :-)