Mac Emulation / Daydream for NeXT

[olsen]

I don't know, blame wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP#Unix

I have no idea how fun it would be to run NeXTSTEP. Although you could probably find out by running the x86 version on a PC, 3.1+ or OpenStep.

I actually did a few experiments in this area recently (OpenStep), and some 15 years ago (NeXTSTEP).

You can install OpenStep for Intel in a virtual machine and give it a spin. You are limited to the very basic graphics hardware support offered by the installation disks, which takes a lot of fun out of using the system (it's greyscale 640x480 VGA). OpenStep and its precursors were intended to be used with a high resolution display, and without it, things become very uncomfortable very quickly.

Both OpenStep and NeXTSTEP are now so old that it is next to impossible to build or install any contemporary software on them. Say, you wanted to play MP3-encoded files or use SSH either as a client or a server application.

Today such software expects a POSIX-ish host, and both OpenStep and NeXTSTEP are far removed from that. These operating systems sit among the branches of the original Unix tree, with distant cousins such as HP-UX, IRIX or SunOS on other branches. Portable Unix software had to account for the minor and major differences between these platforms that shared common ancestors, but were at times so different that it took extra effort to port the code to those platforms.

Because NeXTSTEP is an "exotic" Unix, building client software required the respective project's "configure" script to run and produce useful results, which in turn would permit the code to be built. This step almost always ran into trouble, because either the respective script supposedly supported some version of NeXTSTEP, but that was not the version I was using, or the NeXTSTEP support was by now incomplete and untested. Tinkering with the script sometimes allowed for it to produce some useful build files, but once the compiler and linker got to work, the code failed to compile or link because it had never been ported or tested on NeXTSTEP.

I tried this with OpenSSH and LAME, but both failed in the early stages of the build process. That was in 2001. For OpenSSH one of the obstacles was in building the crypto libraries it needed, and that failed, too. One could, given enough time and patience, port such software properly, but this seems like a really tall order. Even the 'C' compiler is so old that you would have to port a more recent version first.

Long story short: in my opinion you can have a lot more fun with your Amiga than with the NeXTEP or OpenStep platforms today, and that used to be true even 15 years ago

[olsen]

I was just watching a youtube video about NeXTStep OS.   The default windows manager kind of reminders me of WindowMaker which was my preferred windows manager for Xwindows when I was big into Un*x and XFCE wasn't around. .

Guess which one came first

[olsen]

This works on virtual box with a bit of fiddling.

It is very fiddly indeed, and the result leaves a less than charming impression of the system and its power. It's like running AmigaOS 3.1 on an early version of UAE and drawing conclusions from what you see...

[darkage]

Guess which one came first

ha looks like NeXTstep, and windowmaker replicated its feel.. according to wikipedia..  

I had no idea..   I loved Windowmaker for yep its elegant feel & look.

actually IM surprised last stable release of Windowmaker is August 2015

[Pentad]

NeXT very interesting in terms of computing history.  

When I was at Purdue, the university purchase gobs of NeXT Cubes. We had computer rooms full of them and many of the Mac departments (think DTP stuff) were ready to move over to them.  However, the software never came and it ended up being a joke on campus.

I remember my advanced physics professor ranting about how Jobs said the price would be around $3k for each workstation since that was the feedback NeXT had received about price points from scholars. It shipped at over twice that for a basic unit which my professor said would doom the machine.  True to his word, the physics department never bought a single machine and the machines failed in the marketplace.

For me, this video is a perfect example of not only why NeXT failed but the insanity of Jobs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNeXlJW70KQ

I remember seeing this as a kid (I was 14 in ’85) and thinking how great this company was and how amazing Jobs was as a leader.

Flash forward today and this is an insane timetable. I mean they are talking about building and shipping a new computer in 18 months!  If one of my staff gave a timetable like this I would fire them on the spot.

I understand that Jobs is in his own reality but you have people like George Crow, Dan’l Lewin and Bud Tribble in this room and the fact they went along with this is stunning.  You do see some pushback from Joanna Hoffman (very sharp) and years later she said the film crew edited out a lot of her pushback to make Jobs seem more glorious as a leader.  It was one of the reasons she left NeXT (the insane timetables not the film editing).

We know of course they weren’t even close on their schedule or price. It must of been hell working with Jobs and trying to put together real forecasts and realistic schedules.  I can’t begin to imagine the stress.

Many years later I worked at Navistar in their advanced technology group (bringing cutting edge technology into the company) and the CIO decided to bet against Windows (Navistar was pretty dumb when I was there). We began rolling out OpenStep on new workstations. It was still pretty new and Next released a new video driver which ended up wiping the workstations.  The CIO lost everything he had been working on and that was the end of our pilot program with OpenStep.

-P

[AltRN8]

While I don't disagree with much of what you've said about Jobs and the issues around NeXT, I think it would be unfair to characterize NeXT as a failure. It definitely was a transformative machine and influenced much that came later on. Mac OS X is basically the latest version of NeXT which is highly used OS. The "World Wide Web" was built on the NeXTStep because it was easy to build such software on this platform. I'll admit I'm a Next fanboy but not so much to deny the problems NeXT had. (Seriously magnesium infused cases?)

That video you linked to was very interesting. I have a copy of that booklet Paul Rand pulled out in the video. It's a pretty cool document about the logo's evolution.

[psxphill]

The "World Wide Web" was built on the NeXTStep because it was easy to build such software on this platform.

"World Wide Web" (later Nexus) was the first browser, but it wasn't very good for a long time, never really popular & then Mosaic came along and people started using that instead.

[darkage]

I remember my advanced physics professor ranting about how Jobs said the price would be around $3k for each workstation since that was the feedback NeXT had received about price points from scholars. It shipped at over twice that for a basic unit which my professor said would doom the machine.  True to his word, the physics department never bought a single machine and the machines failed in the marketplace.

I have a SGI O2, would be around mid 90's release.    haha lookup the original  RRP price I think it was around the $10,000 mark back in the day.

[nicholas]

ha looks like NeXTstep, and windowmaker replicated its feel.. according to wikipedia..  

I had no idea..   I loved Windowmaker for yep its elegant feel & look.

actually IM surprised last stable release of Windowmaker is August 2015

I still use GNUStep/WindowMaker on my little quadcore atom Transformer with 2GB of soldered ram. I love it.

[darkage]

I still use GNUStep/WindowMaker on my little quadcore atom Transformer with 2GB of soldered ram. I love it.

for some reason I stopped using Un*x for workstation purposes.   I didnt like Linux due to dependency hell and love BSD with ports style packages but theres more compatibility and mainstream projects for linux.    Still use it for server side tasks.

[AltRN8]

"World Wide Web" (later Nexus) was the first browser, but it wasn't very good for a long time, never really popular & then Mosaic came along and people started using that instead.

The HTML standard and approach to the web was invented on the NeXT. The browser wasn't the point the creation of the approach was and the NeXT platform helped enable that representation. Previous to this change we had text based representations like gopher. I loved gopher but the HTML approach was in the end more popular.

[AltRN8]

I just wanted to post a quick thanks to Pentad for posting the original thread. Got a chance to check out the work that's been done and it is really neat. Can't wait to try it out on some of my NeXT hardware.

[Pentad]

I just wanted to post a quick thanks to Pentad for posting the original thread. Got a chance to check out the work that's been done and it is really neat. Can't wait to try it out on some of my NeXT hardware.

I'm really glad you enjoyed it!  When I stumble across stuff like this I like to share it because I find it interesting but I'm always worried that nobody else will.  :-)

That video really hit me hard because I had seen it as a kid but I had no idea about how anything of this worked.  I mean I knew who Susan Kare, Joanna Hoffman, George Crow, and Bud Tribble were (and of course Jobs) so it seems pretty amazing they could create something like this so fast.

Flash forward 25 years, I stumble across it again and it is shocking that people would agree to 18 months to build a brand new computer (hardware), create a new OS, write all the software and ship it in 18 months.  Like, it's just insane. I have often wished I could talk with Bud Tribble and George Crow and ask them what they were thinking?

If it sounded like I was completely bashing NeXT that was not my intent.  In fact, in the "Steve Jobs History" I find NeXT to be probably the most interesting part.  I still think NeXT was a failure in the marketplace (as a hardware product and then as a software product).  However, I do agree that some great technology came out of it. Jobs was lucky that Apple didn't go with BeOS and that Gassée was a terrible negotiator.

I think one of the best technologies to come out of NeXT was making GUI applications easier to program.  Here is a great video of NeXT vs SUN  back in 1991 with Jobs talking about the future of programming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg

Cheers!
-P

[AltRN8]

I would say Apple is very lucky they went with NeXT and not with BeOS and that's coming from a guy who loved BeOS (I've got a BeBox to prove it!).

In many ways it was Apple being bought by NeXT not the other way around. I wasn't really an Apple person until Mac OS X (basically because I was such a fan of NeXT). I've been willing to pay the ridiculous apple tax just to use the OS. Fortunately my job has provided many of the machines I use so I've not had to pay that tax often.

I can't agree more with you in regard to the timeline. Jobs was insane about it but to be honest he did have some valid points in the video. They should have taken some of this into consideration before forming the company though so ultimately the unrealistic deadline was his own fault. I've always felt like he targeted the higher ed community because they frankly were not too savvy at the time. His heart wasn't in that space it was just an open market for them to exploit.

[Pentad]

I would say Apple is very lucky they went with NeXT and not with BeOS and that's coming from a guy who loved BeOS (I've got a BeBox to prove it!).

In many ways it was Apple being bought by NeXT not the other way around. I wasn't really an Apple person until Mac OS X (basically because I was such a fan of NeXT). I've been willing to pay the ridiculous apple tax just to use the OS. Fortunately my job has provided many of the machines I use so I've not had to pay that tax often.

I thought BeOS was pretty amazing for the time.  I had it on Intel and compared to Windows at the time, it was simply mind blowing.  Really, it was very much like the Amiga in 1985.

I too enjoy macOS and Apple hardware. I really like the MBP and have purchased a new one every year since the MBP introduction. I make my money from my MBP so I just can't be down.  Apple hardware is step above the rest and something I can depend on.

However, the last two years I have been disappointed.  I felt the 2015 MBP was over priced for the hardware it had.  I spent $4500 on a 2016 MBP and ended up returning it.  I just thought it was too much for the hardware it offered.  I like Tim Cook but I don't think their computer line is something he cares about.

I get it.  I know they make their money on iOS but sometimes I miss Apple Computer, Inc. They had cutting edge computers and really pushed the industry.  With Apple, Inc., their computer line seems more like an afterthought.

For a company with the kind of money they have, you would their computer line wouldn't fall stagnant.

I apologize for the rant.  :-)

-P

[nicholas]

for some reason I stopped using Un*x for workstation purposes.   I didnt like Linux due to dependency hell and love BSD with ports style packages but theres more compatibility and mainstream projects for linux.    Still use it for server side tasks.

Not sure what Linux has to do with this but what is this "dependency hell" you speak of?

GNUStep and Windowmaker are both available for the multiple forks of BSD btw.