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Offline jcmTopic starter

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G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« on: January 23, 2017, 10:20:33 AM »
Hi all,

first, I apologize if this has been covered already.  

I have a GVP G-Force 030 Combo with a 68030 at 40Mhz. I got it used and it worked fine for 7-8 months when the A2000 started to hang. First, it was maybe once a week, then once a day and then once an hour.  And then, it would not boot at all.  A couple of friends had a look at it and when we changed the clock crystal from 40MHz to 25MHz, it boots but hangs after 5-10 seconds. Changing the CPU produces the same result.

Since there are not schematics to get for this card a friend who is quite competent when it comes to electronics has had a look and has guessed that it's the PAL circuits are damaged, which apparantly happens after a while when you overclock the thing. Another friend suggested it may be the MACH circuit that's damaged.

Anyone have any idea what the problem may be?  

Thanks,

Joacim
 

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Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2017, 10:55:35 AM »
Quote from: jcm;820498
Anyone have any idea what the problem may be?

Which GVP 030 Combo is this? GVP released three of them, a 25Mhz entry-level version, a 040 mid-level version, and a 50Mhz high-end version. I guess you probably have the 25Mhz version?

Does the Amiga boot without the board? What about the power supply? Did you try the GVP card in another system?
 

Offline jcmTopic starter

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Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2017, 11:22:47 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;820501
Which GVP 030 Combo is this? GVP released three of them, a 25Mhz entry-level version, a 040 mid-level version, and a 50Mhz high-end version. I guess you probably have the 25Mhz version?

Does the Amiga boot without the board? What about the power supply? Did you try the GVP card in another system?

It's the series II 40Mhz. The A2000 boots fine without the GVP board and we have tried the GVP board in another A2000 with the same results.

We have also checked the PSU and it is fine. I suspect the GVP card has been overclocked by a previous owner.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 12:33:52 PM by jcm »
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2017, 04:06:58 PM »
Tried it with the memory removed?

Is this one of the ones with memory chips soldered directly to the board? I remember someone else having a problem that pointed to those a while back. Not sure if it ever got resolved?

Also, have you tried cooling it? (fan, run with the case open, add a heatsink, etc.)
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline QuikSanz

Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2017, 04:51:45 PM »
If it's the same 1 I have then it should have 4MB soldered and room for 3 more. Is there anything new on the system? remove all cards and go with just the soldered memory.
 

Offline jcmTopic starter

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Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2017, 04:55:33 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;820512
Tried it with the memory removed?

Is this one of the ones with memory chips soldered directly to the board? I remember someone else having a problem that pointed to those a while back. Not sure if it ever got resolved?

Also, have you tried cooling it? (fan, run with the case open, add a heatsink, etc.)


Yes, it's the one that has 4MB pre-installed.  I have tried to remove the additional RAM I had installed and set all jumpers accordingly. No difference I'm afraid.
 

Offline jcmTopic starter

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Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2017, 04:56:16 PM »
Quote from: QuikSanz;820517
If it's the same 1 I have then it should have 4MB soldered and room for 3 more. Is there anything new on the system? remove all cards and go with just the soldered memory.


There is a Golden Gate II and a NE2000 network card installed. Have tried to remove all other cards and the result is the same I'm afraid.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2017, 06:30:52 PM »
One general problem for all Amigas is dodgy system clock signals that are distorted beyond the point which accelerator cards will accept. This varies by card, and can "drift" over time.

There are tolerances involved, and sometimes it is very much a case of "tuning your Amiga" to work with accelerators. The older through hole Amigas (A500, A2000, A3000, A1000) are more prone to this, and the A2000 is the biggest area board, so maybe hardest to get just right.

The A600, A1200, and A4000 are SMD, usually hold their frequencies better, but still might need some adjustment to get a very faster accelerator working. Sometimes the accelerator has off timings too. Gayle and Budgie issues means sometimes you HAVE to change a resistor or similar just to get the thing to work with an accelerator.

There wasn't much scope to test this issue at the time - not many people had storascopes or other diagnostic gear.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2017, 06:35:30 PM »
Pat brings up a good point.  If you're trying it on Rev. 4 A2000 boards, any difference if you try it on a >Rev. 6 series board?  The newer models have much cleaner signals.  Slight chance but maybe worth checking out?
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline Damion

Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2017, 09:18:05 PM »
Quote from: jcm;820498
Hi all,

first, I apologize if this has been covered already.  

I have a GVP G-Force 030 Combo with a 68030 at 40Mhz. I got it used and it worked fine for 7-8 months when the A2000 started to hang. First, it was maybe once a week, then once a day and then once an hour.  And then, it would not boot at all.  A couple of friends had a look at it and when we changed the clock crystal from 40MHz to 25MHz, it boots but hangs after 5-10 seconds. Changing the CPU produces the same result.

Since there are not schematics to get for this card a friend who is quite competent when it comes to electronics has had a look and has guessed that it's the PAL circuits are damaged, which apparantly happens after a while when you overclock the thing. Another friend suggested it may be the MACH circuit that's damaged.

Anyone have any idea what the problem may be?  

Thanks,

Joacim


If the card has been overclocked, you might be right about the PALs. At least regarding the A530, the factory 50MHz version had different PALs with an additional memory wait state. Some GVP engineers warned about "cooking the PALs" if choosing to overclock the 40MHz A530. (There's more in the usenet archive if you want to dig a bit. The A1200 "Jaws" series also follows a similar pattern, where the 40MHz card actually has slightly better memory performance than its 50MHz successor, due to an added wait state).

You might get lucky and find it's something else, but I'm sure the card was checked the for anything obvious (poorly seated PAL, RAM, or jumper, bad solder joints, etc).
 

Offline jcmTopic starter

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Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2017, 05:12:44 PM »
I got some time today to fiddle around some more. I removed the two 4MB RAM sticks and set jumpers accordingly. I also disabled SCSI harddrive present.

With 40Mhz clock crystal installed, system at least boots to insert-diskette-screen but CPU, FPU and the thing at RP2 (see enclosed photo) gets crazy hot.

[ATTACH]5535[/ATTACH]

With 25Mhz clock crystal installed, CPU and FPU stay at reasonable temperature levels but the RP2 thing gets crazy hot when I try to boot from a workbench diskette.

So - progress but still not progress I suppose.

[ATTACH]5536[/ATTACH]

I forgot to mention that I had the memory buffer chips (I think it was, anyway) replaced as my electronics friend thought they was the source of the problem. They are in the red box in the other photo attached to this post.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2017, 06:35:10 PM »
RP2 is a resistor pack, and shows damage. It has been getting hot all of it's life, probably. These are typically used to pull a signal up to (+5V) or down to (GND) if no other part of the system is directly driving the signal line at the time. On the inside they are very simple, just a bank of resistors lined up to one common rail. Saves a lot of connections than using individual resistors.

Typically, some RP designs have lower or higher resistance values than are necessary for continuous operation. Also, if they are sinking more power (Volts X Amps = Watts) then they were designed for, they will get very very hot and eventually some of the individual resistors in them start burning out. Resistors have a wattage value. If they sink more current and draw more power (watts) than they are rated for, they will die, sooner rather than later.

The snag with resistor packs is, every resistor in one has a similar resistance. Sometimes you want a bit higher, to reduce the amount of power being drawn. Swapping out just one resistor isn't possible without hacking the motherboard. If you do replace RP2, try it 2 ways - one with the same resistance values, one with about double that or less. The double one will run cooler, but might not be able to "assert" the line correctly.

You might find some of the logic chips around that area, which connect the fast RAM sockets to the rest of the system, have gone bad. You can get 74 series chips in both TTL and CMOS. Most equipment was fitted with TTL. CMOS take way less power and does the same job, but requires careful handling as it is static sensitive (this is an issue when noobs start poking around with hardware).

What revision of A2000 are you using it on? Problem might not be the card, it might be a mod done to bring early rev 4 boards up to rev 6 standard. Or there might be issues with both Amiga motherboard and card daughterboard.

The root cause I think is, accelerators need slow downs when talking to or reading from the Amiga custom chips, or chip RAM. That part of the bus only goes at 7MHz (AGA goes 14MHz), so accelerators have to slow down access to those areas, or the information gets garbled on transfer. For some reason, that used to work, but does not anymore.

The problem is vastly reduced on the A3000 and A4000, which were ALWAYS designed for faster CPUS to access the Amiga parts of a system without a hitch. OK, sometimes you have to plug in newer Busters, but the design side was there from the start. Those were designed asynchronous from the ground up. A2000s just were not, it was something they were adapted to by modification.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 07:00:42 PM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline jcmTopic starter

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Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2017, 06:58:45 PM »
I spoke too soon on this. I removed the FPU and lo and behold, everything boots and the circuits stay cool.

Until I tried to do some diagnostics and realise that the A2000 isn't actually using the GVP 030 Combo-card at all.  Put everything back and the machine indeed still boots but it still doesn't recognise the GVP 030 Combo is even installed.

I'm totally stumped here, but obviously something is very broken.

Sad face, etc.
 

Offline jcmTopic starter

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Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 07:07:25 PM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;820632
RP2 is a resistor pack, and shows damage. It has been getting hot all of it's life, probably. These are typically used to pull a signal up to (+5V) or down to (GND) if no other part of the system is directly driving the signal line at the time. On the inside they are very simple, just a bank of resistors lined up to one common rail. Saves a lot of connections than using individual resistors.

Typically, some RP designs have lower or higher resistance values than are necessary for continuous operation. Also, if they are sinking more power (Volts X Amps = Watts) then they were designed for, they will get very very hot and eventually some of the individual resistors in them start burning out. Resistors have a wattage value. If they sink more current and draw more power (watts) than they are rated for, they will die, sooner rather than later.

The snag with resistor packs is, every resistor in one has a similar resistance. Sometimes you want a bit higher, to reduce the amount of power being drawn. Swapping out just one resistor isn't possible without hacking the motherboard. If you do replace RP2, try it 2 ways - one with the same resistance values, one with about double that or less. The double one will run cooler, but might not be able to "assert" the line correctly.

You might find some of the logic chips around that area, which connect the fast RAM sockets to the rest of the system, have gone bad. You can get 74 series chips in both TTL and CMOS. Most equipment was fitted with TTL. CMOS take way less power and does the same job, but requires careful handling as it is static sensitive (this is an issue when noobs start poking around with hardware).

What revision of A2000 are you using it on? Problem might not be the card, it might be a mod done to bring early rev 4 boards up to rev 6 standard. Or there might be issues with both Amiga motherboard and card daughterboard.

The root cause I think is, accelerators need slow downs when talking to or reading from the Amiga custom chips, or chip RAM. That part of the bus only goes at 7MHz (AGA goes 14MHz), so accelerators have to slow down access to those areas, or the information gets garbled on transfer. For some reason, that used to work, but does not anymore.

The problem is vastly reduced on the A3000 and A4000, which were ALWAYS designed for faster CPUS to access the Amiga parts of a system without a hitch. OK, sometimes you have to plug in newer Busters, but the design side was there from the start. Those were designed asynchronous from the ground up. A2000s just were not, it was something they were adapted to by modification.


I got the 4.3 revision in my A2000. As I mentioned previously, the GVP 030 Combo ran fine for months in this A2000 but I guess a 30 year old computer can brake too.  :)
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: G-Force 030 Combo hangs
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2017, 07:08:32 PM »
All that stuff in the yellow box is socketed FOR A REASON. It was designed to be replaced in time. ;)

It can be difficult to source replacements in that package, at least you have all the chip numbers written on the top of them.

4.3? Yeah, time to hack it up to 6. Which was what happened at the time, some of the mods may have gone bad, and the card is actually OK.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi