**Need Setup HELP** with Classic Amiga 2000 HARD DISK (Bridgeboard)

[wbrejnia]

I clicked on the link to see what would happen and got taken to a Paypal payment page, plus an auto-response in my inbox. So it appears to still be working if you have a Paypal account?

...which reminds me, I should probably toss a couple bucks for hosting, considering how much time I spend on here. :laughing:

I just made a  token donation (went thru Paypal to A-EON Technology Ltd)
I checked the monthly Goal on the Forum, it didn't update (but could take time).  Will check later.
 
 I'm not the greatest donator to charities, but I do get moved by world disasters.  Also when it come to Freeware software that I really find useful I do donate as well.  The way I see things as far as Forums like this and others. (What if the forum wasn't around, how much would one pay for excellent information pointers (past and present), especially past on Legacy technology.  Also hats off to folks like yourself who reach out and help like you did help me of free will.  That  wouldn't be possible without a place like here).

[wbrejnia]

Thinking about that WD1002a-27x IBM RLL Hard Drive controller in my spare time.

I picked this information up in two places.  (Specifically one Persons Build book for XT machines)

It appears the Western Digital Controller was one of the better ones (RLL Drive) at the time and it has a built in BIOS, so maybe it doesn't need a driver, since nowhere anywhere there is mention of one. Retro stuff is overprice by this controller sells for over $150-250 US today.

Plus the Retro Reseller who has drivers for everything they sell, stated he has no driver for this card.

What documentation says is you can access to on Board BIOS using the DOS "Debug" command, and entering this command "G=C800:5.", which starts a text based interactive menu. (to Format, Partition, etc).


QUOTE: Once in the BIOS program, it will ask you a few questions about your drive. If you do not know the information on your drive, then you are going to have to get it from the drive manufacturer. The next step is to run FDISK. In this program you select the type and number of partitions that you would like to make.

At least if I got this working it would prove I have a good WD Controller and it's alive.

Then the next step is

QUOTE: The next step is to run FDISK. In this program you select the type and number of partitions that you would like to make. After you make the partitions, you will need to format them again using FORMAT. Finally to make your partition bootable you need to run the program SYS.

If FDISK then picked up the drive that would be progress.

I wouldn't re-partition or format, but maybe I could see what partition are there, and verify that I have a working drive.

OF COURSE this all means I need to get my 486 B drive working to make a DOS disk. arrrgh!

[darkage]

Looks like you can get the WD1002A-27X


$19 from a computer recycler http://www.4drives.com/4drives/WD1002A-27X.htm

$40 to $79.95 from ebay  http://ebay.to/2jvp7sU

[Pat the Cat]

Well, I got some good news - apparently the drives are pretty good for keeping their contents, especially if they have been switched off and stored well. Which this one has been. So your work probably is intact on it.

Also, WD do their own DOS rescue package, called Lifeguard Tools. I don't recommend you just plunge straight in and use this, but it almost certainly contains a driver somewhere, if one is needed. Plus, it's kind of "the official rescue package" for WD products, so seems a good place to start, in terms of download everything and have a look offline. Quicker than trawling online for odds and ends. You can get the same straight from WD, if you know where to look.

http://www.4shared.com/zip/jibFxotI/Western_Digital_Data_Lifeguard.html?cau2=403tNull&ua=WINDOWS

http://support.wdc.com/downloads.aspx?DL

If you used the drive for PC files, chances are pretty much a certainty that the partitions are DOS, and you ARE going the right way about it. You might have to do a boot disk in 3.5 inch size, if you can't get your current 486 boot system happy with reading from that ISA WD controller.

If they are not, then you are going to have to learn Commodore Bridgeboard again anyway, and read them off with an Amiga. But I doubt that, it would not make sense to use a PC and store data on an Amiga. Unless you wanted to keep it REALLY safe.

[darkage]

What documentation says is you can access to on Board BIOS using the DOS "Debug" command, and entering this command "G=C800:5.", which starts a text based interactive menu. (to Format, Partition, etc).

Careful with that debug command.   It looks like it only executes a low level format app from memory.   Manual says the following

'This controller has a built-in low-level format program. To enter the program run the DEBUG utility supplied with DOS and at the prompt enter: G=C800:5.'  

Also dont set the jumpers on the MFM/RLL controller card, looks like that triggers low level format.


Screenshot of debug app running showing just low level format option, may be a different controller  -  http://angelohouben.nl/restoring-an-ibm-5150-computer/  


Not sure if you have checked all terminator resistors are inplace and correct jumper settings are setup.   If the terminator resisters are sockets you may want to remove and reseat them.   I didn't realise the 5.25 floppy has these until this thread pop up, not sure if these are on the MFM drives at all.    

heres some handy old school applications,  you might want to see if you can load checkit diagnostics perhaps

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/software/software.htm

On the 486 you will probably want to disable IDE if onboard and/or remove the ide controller card, if you are adding the MFM controller to that.

Edit - You may want to hit up on the vintage computer forums, they might be handy for MFM stuff http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php

[wbrejnia]

Man, both of you are really good finding this material. I tried and never got this close.

Plus the fact that you are around is so nice, I thought you gave up on me. Since things seem kind of "stabbing in the dark" on my side.

That Lifeguard WD tool looks exactly what I need (not going to use it yet) but that Version is the one I was looking for, since I do have similar Floppy version. I ran that Lifeguard tool and it booted MS Dos Right off of it and went into the menu. This version you found looks more ideal (older, possibly for the time).

And that article you found on the DEBUG is great. Looks Promising on what I was thinking (A disk that will recognize without a driver).

But I have two hurdles to face before I even try the two above.

1) IS the 486 and that B: drive that I couldn't get working to make a fresh 5.25" DOS boot disk and add tools to it (like DEBUG).

2) My biggest worry. I pulled out a couple of old 3.25" floppy drives from some spare computers, and I tried with hope to hook one up the the Bridgeboard (To start working with 3.5" floppy rather than the 5.25")

I did 2) because I read in the bridgeboard spec that you can have both a 5.25" and a 3.25". But when I read again, I noticed my 8088 Bridgeboard spec only supports ONE 5.25". Not a 3.5 at all.

So I went back to the 5.25", but from that point onward the 5.25" on the Amiga Bridgeboard DOS connection isn't booting Like it was a few days ago.

The drive activates. LED comes on. The reports bad disk.
This never happened before. It was working fine (Screen Shots prove it). DOS booted on the Bridgeboard with a DOS 6.2 floppy in it.

At first I thought the floppy degraded. But I have two (not sure if 2nd was ever good), but two labeled 5.25" floppies now don't work.

My worry is I damaged the Bridgeboard, or the 5.25" in the Amiga, when I tried to hooked up a 3.5" floppy. (the data bus lines), not the control lines (since control works by LED turning on).

IS THAT POSSIBLE? Are the data lines sensitive to a degree that if the 3.5" connection shorted a data line that it would get damaged. I kind of think this old technology wasn't that sensitive. After all many times in past I reversed the ribbon cable since it can hook on either way.

If I damaged the bridgeboard floppy controller, or the Amiga DOS drive, my mission is over (From an amiga Perspective), and the only hope would be to move efforts into the 486.

[wbrejnia]

Not sure if you have checked all terminator resistors are inplace and correct jumper settings are setup. If the terminator resisters are sockets you may want to remove and reseat them. I didn't realise the 5.25 floppy has these until this thread pop up, not sure if these are on the MFM drives at all.

Hmmm.  Good idea.  Not that they could be in wrong positions, since Never changed, but I like the fact of (remove and reseat).  Might want to do where there is a terminator or jumper to clean up connections.

[wbrejnia]

Looks like you can get the WD1002A-27X


$19 from a computer recycler http://www.4drives.com/4drives/WD1002A-27X.htm

Good spec sheet in that suppliers web site.
 
 Again hope of No Driver needed from DOS with this
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 be seen by DOS as 4 hds.
 940          W2           closed
             cyls. 17 SPT. Supports only up
             to 16 heads and 663 cylinders
             (physical).
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 Could be worthy of a try in the 486.

[wbrejnia]

So I have a clue if the AMIGA Bridgeboard 5.25" DOS Floppies are corrupt of if it's something else (like I damaged something).

I have a box of 10 5.25" floppies. I bought a new box a couple of years ago when my HDD hunt started.

8 of them were never used.

So if I put a Formatted BOOT DISK in, or a unformatted disk, I get a quick "BOOT DISK FAILURE MESSAGE".

In my opinion if the Formatted Boot disk was slightly corrupted, the BridgePC would at least spend a second more trying to read it. But it doesn't.

Time to move things into the 486 (Empty the cards) and see if something can be built for the WD controller and HDD (but I must have 3.25" DOS BOOT floppies to work with as a starting point).   Maybe hook in just the C: (HDD)

Will prepare similar DOS floppies first, since in DOS you can only format a Floppy with the /S (system install) from a working DOS System (same version). I won't have that once I rip apart the 486.

[Pat the Cat]

Sounds like the 5.25 inch drive died. If none of the 10 floppies will format or read.

They can be brought back to life, if the mechanics are all ok and it's just dirt on the read heads.

It is not easy to damage a 3.5 inch drive plugging in the wrong way, but I am not so familiar with breaking or fixing 5.25 inch. It is probably easier to take the heads off for cleaning, if you can't get another one.

But, why not just boot from a floppy on the 486, from 3.5 inch PC drive, and just try it that way? Crash bang wallop, read the data off onto another hard disk, on a different controller. Job done.

A floppy disk is a floppy disk, after all. From the computer's point of view. It does not care where it boots from.

I would not boot with the whole diags tool, that sounds a bit risky unless you know what you are doing and are confident you will not damage the data. Practice a bit with it first, with the hard drive disconnected.

If you get confident with doing this sort of stuff, with IDE and SCSI too, you can earn some very nice money. Data is VALUABLE. Only now are you realizing how value it can be. Top dollar at this game is 10% (finders fee) on the value of recovered data. You got to be VERY good to charge that though. No recovery of at least 80% of data, no fee, is usual. Clients want the whole thing or they are not happy.

I usually just charge for materials, but rarely offer the service. It can be a little dangerous. You don't know WHAT is in the archive to begin with, if it isn't yours. Could be anything. Usually it's totally harmless.

[darkage]

So if I put a Formatted BOOT DISK in, or a unformatted disk, I get a quick "BOOT DISK FAILURE MESSAGE".

even on bad floppies I would expect to hear floppy main motor spinning and the head motor engaging  while read light shows and the drive attempt to seek.  Normally a very quick return of a error message like that without sound, indicates hardware not setup correctly or hardware failure.      

Heres the German manual that you can translate to english within the browser if translate extension is used  -   http://l8r.net/technical/a2088.html  

BridgeBoard guide from Aminet - http://aminet.net/search?query=bridgeboard+guide   Think its the same thing.  

Can you populate the following missing information -    

5.25 Floppy Brand and model number  = ?
486 motherboard brand and model number.  = ?

We have established the following models -

ISA Western Digital WD1002A-27X MFM / RLL controller
Octagon ST-506 Hard Drive

NOTE - IF you need to transfer a file like a floppy image over to the Amiga you can use a NULL modem cable and theres a little script for AmigaBasic or ARexx that you can type up just to receive the first file.  

http://adfsender.stoeggl.com/adfsenderterminal/methods.html  

just incase you want to recreate any of the Janus or PC setup disks.


Not sure if you have tried to access the bridgeboards bios -

http://home.arcor.de/kickstart/TKA/Tutorials/bridgeboard/pcjanus.html

'In the BIOS is accessed by pressing the key combination Ctrl-Alt-Esc active PC Monocrome display .'


I will probably have to buy myself a bridgeboard some day now

[wbrejnia]

even on bad floppies I would expect to hear floppy main motor spinning and the head motor engaging while read light shows and the drive attempt to seek. Normally a very quick return of a error message like that without sound, indicates hardware not setup correctly or hardware failure.
Not sure if you have tried to access the bridgeboards bios -

http://home.arcor.de/kickstart/TKA/Tutorials/bridgeboard/pcjanus.html

'In the BIOS is accessed by pressing the key combination Ctrl-Alt-Esc active PC Monocrome display .'


I will probably have to buy myself a bridgeboard some day now

First, 5.25" Bridgeboard the drive does spin.  Light turns on and then the error message.
 
 *** WOW SUPER COOL, I didn't know you could get into bridgeboard BIOS **  That will be very interesting and tell me so much more ***
 
 And now something DISTURBING!!!
 
 I was so close, but didn't know this.
 
 The Bridgeboard has a Floppy drive Port in the back of A2088 Bridgboard only!!!!!!! (mine is a A2088).
 You can hook up a 5.25" or 3.5" Amiga Floppy to it.
 
 
 
 
 I thought it was a parallel printer port.  Even decades ago I didn't know this.
 
 **** I HAVE A 3.5" A1000 External Floppy DRIVE **
 **** I could have done everything I wanted in that Bridgeboard DOS.
 
 ** No need for 5.25" at all except to boot **
 
 
 
 
 Next steps.
 
 1) Get into Bridgeboard BIOS and see what I can do.
 2) Maybe I can boot of the 3.5" floppy.
 3) Maybe ALSO BIOS can pick up that WD controller, or Hard disk.
 
 This will be interesting.

[wbrejnia]

I'm getting excited!!!
 
 Haven't figured out how to get in BIOS (Ctrl-Alt-Esc) not working.
 
 But I disconnected the A: 5.25" disk, and have the 3.5" disk connected to bridgeboard.  After a first no A: drive failure, Bridgeboard PC is now trying to boot off the 3.5" (Drive light is on briefly), then "Boot Disk Failure".
 
 I'm sure the boot disk I am using is formatted higher capacity that the drive can handle.  Need to make a 5.25" DOS BOOT DISK at 1.44 MB or 1.2.

[wbrejnia]

Found out that the ALT-ALT-CTRL-DEL isn't really a HW BIOS, it's access to SETUP and is only Available after you get a DOS PROMPT.

(So no hope there till a boot happens)

No Luck with a MSDOS Boot. (I know it worked before on the 5.25").

All activity is proper.

1) Janus Libraries Loaded
2) Tries to boot from A: Drive (Head moves, drive spins, Led on During Read Attempt)
3) Tried to boot from B: Drive (appears that way, same behavior as A: )
-------> Boot Disk Failure for both

Could Format Type(size) be wrong.
Manual says the 3.5 A1010 Floppy should be 360K, or 720K

Tried "Format a: /F:720 /S " or " /1" for single sided (Get Paramater Not Compatible )  Can you format a 3.5" floppy 720K?

** WISH I NEVER TOUCHED THE WORKING 5.25" Booting Floppy Drive **

Failures look like below for Proof.

[wbrejnia]

** NEXT STEP **  (MAKE A WORKING DOS BOOT DISK)

1) Leave Amiga Alone (Setup should work if nothing is BAD)
- Could be bad 5.25" disk
- Possible (you can't boot from a B: Drive)
- Wrong Format Sizes

2) Get 5.25" (386) Floppy drive working in Another spare Computer (If I have the parts)

3) Try formatting Floppies in other Formats sizes

4) Prove I have bootable Floppies (and put back into Amiga for tests)

[darkage]

From bridgeboard guide -

    Floppy Disks: Supports up to 2 standard PC floppy disk drives:
        5.25" Drives: 360KB (Comes standard with 360KB drive)
        3.5" Drives: 720KB (Uses Amiga external floppies drives on the external floppy connector)