**Need Setup HELP** with Classic Amiga 2000 HARD DISK (Bridgeboard)

[wbrejnia]

As promised, here are the details of my final attempt to see if the WD controller BIOS Format would work on the KALOK Hard drive.

According t the manual the ERROR CODE 80 I got is Timeout (Not sure what that means), since there is no detailed explanation. (Maybe Cabling is reversed on one of the ribbons???).

I did flip BOTH cables and the LED on the HDD went ON SOLID. Which usually means reversed cable on a IDE type cable.

Now that I think about it, I should have just flipped One Ribbon cable at a time.  But why would they reverse PIN one on one cable and be inconsistant.
 I could try flipping the cables one at a time and try.
 
The full list of Completion codes are below:

Table 1 - Error Codes

Code Completion Code Summary

01 Bad Command
02 Address Mark Not Found
04 Sector Not Found
05 Reset Failed
07 Set Parameters Failed
09 Attempt to DMA across 64K boundary
0B Bad Track
10 Correctable Data Error
11 ECC Error Corrected
20 Controller Failure
40 Seek Failure
80 Time-out
BB Undefined Error
FF Read Status Failed

[wbrejnia]

While looking on WEB to check proper cabling I found a Article how to get data of an MFM drive like the KALOK Octagon.

Explains how PC/XT works with a WD type controller with it's own BIOS.
Kind of mentions why my 486 BIOS machine may work with the WD controller with BIOS (thus why it works with the Bridgeboard with NO HDD BIOS)

Also explains how you can hook up to the drive and read data off.

Including a DOS/WinXP Tool call Sprite for Data Recovery of HDD's https://www.grc.com/spinrite.htm
The tool isn't so much to get the data off, but it will pick up drives GEOMETRY, so that proper parameter can be used to READ/or RE-FORMAT the drive using WD Controller BIOS.
 
 (( And the cool thing mentioned in the Article is that you need to disable the Floppy Controller not to Conflict with the WD digital Controller, which is exactly what happened to me on the 486))

Article link is below (Transferring data off that old MFM or RLL drive)
http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/blog/index.php/archives/81

Lucky for me I that Format didn't run.

Back luck for me, this journey may not have ended

[wbrejnia]

OH!! MY!! (The Cables were reversed) ** Controller now talking to DRIVE ***

Every picture I saw showed no difference between the cables.

I ASSUMED my cables were not reversed based on the PIN 1 RED marker on the cables. (At that the HDD side of the cable Connector has a NOTCH, so can go on only one way)

Then I looked closely a the HDD connector, and the ribbon on each goes in the opposite way. (Thus reversed)

1) I Put on cable so that LED wouldn't go SOLID (One that would go solid reversed)
2) Then other cable I flipped

*BINGO*
I ran the WD Bios Utility and (NO TIMEOUT ERROR Code 80).
I guess the code means can't talk to Hard Drive Controller.

WD Controller is now talking to HD Controller and ready to Format.

Hmm. Holding off this time, after some thinking. Need Characteristics of Drive.

Or WTF, just format it. I don't care about the school paper anymore.

Care more about getting this HD working. (How things change after so much pain, and will to success on a challenge)


 
 BUT!!  After this step forward, the first thing I thought is  ( NOW THE AMIGA PC/ Birdgeboard/DJMOUNT should WORK)
 
 Maybe it will, since so many changes/HACKS  the WORBENCH DISKS.  Must check and try the others.
 
 NEXT STEP:  (Try all those Workbench Disks, or build new one, like the original Plan)

[darkage]

I wouldn't format the drive, at best see if you can use a modern replacement and leave the drive on the side until you have more ideas.    Best to find out what those jumpers are next to the terminator resisters on the actual drive (near the ribbon connector).

I just bumped into the following - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JVUez4XxpI

XT ISA CF Card - https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/revised-isa-compactflash-pcb/

Looks interesting and may make your computing experience more fun.

Theres other interesting boards - https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/product-category/retro-ibm-pc/

[wbrejnia]

I wouldn't format the drive, at best see if you can use a modern replacement and leave the drive on the side until you have more ideas. Best to find out what those jumpers are next to the terminator resisters on the actual drive (near the ribbon connector).

I just bumped into the following - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JVUez4XxpI

XT ISA CF Card - https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/revised-isa-compactflash-pcb/

Looks interesting and may make your computing experience more fun.

FOR SURE I won't be formatting the drive.

 Will read you material later. Thanks, every tidbit helps, and there have been many tidbits to get to where I am now.
 
 Right now thinking about NEW NEXT STEPS.

[wbrejnia]

So here is my thinking....

NOW THAT CONTROLLER (is working) and HARD DRIVE CONTROLLER (is working) and they are talking, that presents a few possibilities.

The Hard Drive may be DATA CORRUPT, but let's put that aside (it may not be).
But even if the HARD DRIVE bits are corrupt, then PC wouldn't boot, or would be full of unreadable data just like some of my floppies are.

I figure that if I get things configured properly, (and data is bad), then I should get read errors (since controller and drive controller is fine).

BUT RIGHT NOW, I'm not getting Visibility to the WD-HARD-Drive-CONTROLLER (that is key)


I'm no Amiga or PC-XT Expert, but there are 3 basics scenarios (corrupt or not-corrupt).

1) The drive has a AMIGA FORMATTED IMAGE (one or more partitions)
2) The drive has a DOS FORMATTED IMAGE (one or more partitions)
3) The drive has BOTH a [DOS and AMIGA IMAGE]

** due to small drive size, there is probably only 1 or 2 partitions **

I need to read the BRIDGBOARD install Guide steps to fully understand how that new-install/config would be done (there will be clues)

------------------------------ DOS IMAGE SCENARIO --------------------------------------
NOW if a DOS Partition, then somehow (since we know we don't need drivers) the Controller should present a C: or D: Drive, but it doesn't (YET), or if no DOS image (it can't)

Need to figure out how that is done (if an DOS image is there).

(Darkage, that YOUTUBE PC-Pimp guy video (you linked above) should know. I notice the tel # on the you tube video. (416) is in Toronto Canada Area )

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------- AMIGA IMAGE SCENARIO --------------------------------
No idea how this works (yet), but the amiga Bridgeboard manual will provide clues
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I have some research and reading to do.
Everyone welcome to send me idea's or links they find.

Next step is to READ THAT BRIDGEBOARD MANUAL very carefully and understand the NEW BUILD procedure for a IBM-SideHDD and a AMIGA SIde Access to it.

I think if there was a DOS Image, then the AMIGA/PC would see a C: drive. (but it doesn't)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOUND IS SOMETHING THAT TRIGGERS Memory
So even if I don't remember how I used The Amiga 2000
Every time I hear the Computer power up (now), and that Hard Drive's Head makes the LOUD shake-wiggle sound.
It's music to my ears.....
I expect to hear follow up shakes and for the AMIGA to BOOT (without a Workbench Floppy in there), but it doesn't I only get 2 shake sounds.
That is a memory in my head, I haven't forgotten from YEARS BACK.

that "TAT.....TAT.TAT....TAT.TAT.TAT......TAT.TAT.... sound.
It's pretty distinct "squeak" sound that a A2000-HD Makes with Old HD Drive and Metal case. (You got to hear it to understand)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Pat the Cat]

OH!! MY!! (The Cables were reversed) ** Controller now talking to DRIVE ***

Classic problem when dealing with these drives - the cables are never keyed. So you have to check them both ends, from diagrams, to make sure.

As for links, I reckon if you check over the boot floppy downloads I recommended (just download, put on floppy, examine floppy contents) should give you a working boot floppy.

The BIOS on these controllers is very, very limited. Typically they do require CONFIG.SYS to have an entry that points at a driver file. They are extremely small, but required. That's booting on a PC.

Reading the BB manual and setup guides is vital to going through Amiga to get at the data. Especially the bit about how JH0, main PC boot disk, is implemented - as PC hard disk partition, as Amiga partition, or as Amiga hard file (not true partition, but encoded). I think those are main 3 choices, this is further on in BB manual.

Yes, the old noises are very encouraging. I think you are nearly there now, in terms of stages. But it's understanding how the different systems need to be setup to access the drive that you are missing.

This last stage will probably take quite a lot of reading and experiment, but the actual steps needed are not that big. It is just getting them right that matters.

Drive sounds healthy, like I said, the magnetic domains are BIG on small capacity drives, so they tend to remember things very well in storage.

[wbrejnia]

Pat,

Thanks for the confirmation and words of encouragement.

I agree that the BB manual is critical for the solution.

My efforts are going to be threefold (based on a proper cabled system):

1) BB setup details (mostly for understanding the Amiga Access to HD and what config files on AmigaDOS/JANUS make that happen)
--> Attempt a new install of Bridgeboard (Skipping the PC HD Format, which was once done)

2) Since much of my efforts have been with a mis-cabled HD, everything I've tried is the past may needs to be re-tried
--> Trying to boot the Amiga with every Workbench disk I have AGAIN).
--> Recover and/or Build a new reconstructed WB disk (with files off my old disk, but I shouldn't assume any of the old disks are correct)

3) THE Amiga PC Side (has me thinking). If now I can DEBUG (BIOS) access the Harddrive, WHY does FDISK not pick up the C: drive?

--> Some more research on why that is not happening
--> Could it be DOS 6.2 FDISK (may need to try DOS 3.3)
--> I forgot to put back the Original Kickstart ROM during battery removal (Could that be the magical Solution to make the Older Version of JANUS work). Must do that
------> Few years ago when I struggled (with possibly improper cabled HD), I bought that Kickstart rom, and had progress, but more on the front of Newer Workbench running.

--> Could a DOS Driver be needed (I assumed not, but could be wrong)
--> To solve this I need to look into the PC-XT materials more (possibly PC FORUMS)

Yes this will all take time. Much more with bad luck, much less with some good luck.

NEXT STEP: Put back original Kickstart ROM (kind of like getting the Cables right). Maybe after ordering a COIN Replacement battery (and installing it)

[Pat the Cat]

Well, here's an idea...

... you say you have lots of SCSI drives stashed, and it's not that hard to get ISA SCSI controllers for the PC. MUCH cheaper than Amiga SCSI controllers. Getting 8 bit ones not so easy, true, but if you can find locally, should not be expensive - they are very very old and very very slow.

Why not try setting up a "virgin" PC SCSI controller and drive first, as a test run, so you can make mistakes without losing any data...

... Then, when you are sure you understand all the issues with using ISA hard drive controllers, you can do it for real with the old school card and drive you have?

That way, you have freedom to experiment, and mistakes don't matter. You can learn easier about the issues involved. Especially differences between XT and AT. I think that is where you having most problems - XT usage is very rare now. Most people never ever train with them, they learn theory from books and never use them.

As for removing battery, is good idea to replace. Amiga will see the clock is not updating and will report a fault. Is hard to say if this will be problem until replaced - maybe your old Janus config files are set to using clock and will not work without. I say "maybe" because I never test that, for obvious reason.

[wbrejnia]

Pat, Great Idea.
 
 I have plenty spare IDE,  SCSI (maybe), SATA, PSATA Hard Drives.
 
 All I need for the Amiga PC bus side is a controller card.  The WD controller I have won't work for anything other than my MFM ALOK Octagon.  Correct?  
 
 I wonder if the 486AT Hard Drive/Floppy drive controller would go into the Amiga (I have  drivers on the 486 MS DOS), but I doubt it.  Highly doubt it.
 
 BUT before I consider any of the above, I want to try the ORIGINAL KICKSTART ROM and all my OLD workbench disks. (That won't cost me a penny).

[wbrejnia]

Well, here's an idea...
As for removing battery, is good idea to replace. Amiga will see the clock is not updating and will report a fault. Is hard to say if this will be problem until replaced - maybe your old Janus config files are set to using clock and will not work without. I say "maybe" because I never test that, for obvious reason.

Removing the battery is good protection. But it was actually still a working battery (Kind of tells you how good shape this A2000 is).
The Amiga isn't complaining about battery missing, only shows up on the Janus PC boot, but it's just a warning, and DOS boots up.

[Pat the Cat]

 
 All I need for the Amiga PC bus side is a controller card.  The WD controller I have won't work for anything other than my MFM ALOK Octagon.  Correct?

It should work with ANY MFM hard drive. It was a standard, just a very tricky one to deal with.

So, either look for another MFM drive to play with, or a different 8 bit ISA controller for a drive you already have.

Then you have test kit to learn with and you know the data cannot be messed with until you are good and ready.

EDIT: I will check my collection, I did have some ISA SCSI cards, if you cannot find any (but I would have thought not too hard to find). I paid 99 cents for them. This will not be quick though, I have rather a big collection.

[darkage]

It should work with ANY MFM hard drive. It was a standard, just a very tricky one to deal with.

So, either look for another MFM drive to play with, or a different 8 bit ISA controller for a drive you already have.

Then you have test kit to learn with and you know the data cannot be messed with until you are good and ready.

I would grab the 8bit ISA CF card PCB, if it works then it would give you a great test bed to play with.

[wbrejnia]

I would grab the 8bit ISA CF card PCB, if it works then it would give you a great test bed to play with.

I guess you mean one of these.
(This one is assembled)
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Assembled-Tested-Working-Lo-tech-ISA-CompactFlash-Adapter-IDE-for-8-Bit-PCs-/282312406702?hash=item41bb2176ae:g:9HYAAOSwL7VWoBxq

They do come as build your own kits. (for a bit cheaper)

Kind of too much to spend on my purpose.

Contacting my friend who lent me the upgraded 486 which the PC case is mislabelled 286. He keeps way more stuff in his storage room than me.

Also going to visit a Electronic Surplus store nearby. There is a section at the back I never paid attention to. Piles of old computers.

[wbrejnia]

KICKSTART ROM Question.
 
 I am hesitant on opening up the Amiga to put back the original KS1.2 ROM.  Things could get broken with too much take-apart.
 
 
 Are the newer KICKSTARTS backward compatible? , so I shouldn't worry about my older bridgeboard having issues for my JANUS software version.
 
 
 Would hate to spend hours/days on wasted effort to find out at the end that a Lower Kickstart ROM would have solved everything earlier.  
 
 (Like the Cable being reversed , or the BIOS not set on the 486. TWICE I wasted a lot of unnecessary time and effort.)
 
 Might be worth holding off till I get a battery to install.

[Pat the Cat]

There isn't a huge difference, but to be SURE, putting back the same one you used originally would be worth it.

For your peace of mind more than anything.

IIRC Setpatch on Workbench 1.3 was quite large, so there were some bugs introduced in 1.3 ROM, as well as some bugs removed.

I really doubt any of these affected Bridgeboard usage, but I could be wrong, and like I said, it is best to be SURE.

ROM chips are usually very robust, they can take things like bent pins, static electricity etc very well.

Contacting my friend who lent me the upgraded 486 which the PC case is  mislabelled 286. He keeps way more stuff in his storage room than me.

Also going to visit a Electronic Surplus store nearby. There is a  section at the back I never paid attention to. Piles of old  computers.

This is something good about Eastern Europe. In UK, stuff is either  recycled for gold and copper content or shipped outside Europe and dumped if  hazardous material.

Space / land is so expensive here, there are a few stores that hang on to old stuff, but they are nearly all gone now.

Happy hunting.