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Author Topic: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...  (Read 14395 times)

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Offline ivier

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #44 from previous page: April 04, 2004, 09:48:17 PM »
Myth: Chlorophyll is green
Fact: Most Chlorophyll on Earth is green, BUT alot of it is purple, and has 70% efficiency when compared to green chlorophylls. Green however is NOT neccessarily as efficent as chlorophyll can get, just the most efficient, that earth life has found. 95% of all plant species on earth use green chlorophyll, but theres still the other 4.9999999% using purple. but there are other chlorophylls as well, they are quite rare, usually found in unusual algae and moss.

To say mars has no photosythisizing life because there is no green, is the same as saying, a city has no taxis, because there are no yellow cars.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2004, 10:19:20 PM »
Quote
ivier wrote:
Green however is NOT neccessarily as efficent as chlorophyll can get, just the most efficient, that earth life has found. 95% of all plant species on earth use green chlorophyll, but theres still the other 4.9999999% using purple. but there are other chlorophylls as well, they are quite rare, usually found in unusual algae and moss.

To say mars has no photosythisizing life because there is no green, is the same as saying, a city has no taxis, because there are no yellow cars.


Chlorophyll B, C and D all have spectral characteristics identifiable by high school students. So if they're there in any quantity they'll have been seen. They weren't. Besides which, A is the most efficient, and it's difficult imagining anything surviving on the less efficient types in an environment as hostile as Mars.

Not only does this city not have any taxis, it has no roads.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: Nasa has revealed Mars water secrets...
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2004, 10:25:27 PM »
Quote
Karlos wrote:
So again, how come the atmosphere is still so vast after so long?


Seems I was wrong about Venus having a geomagnetic field. But it seems the very thickness of its atmosphere generates a magnetic field of its own capable of deflecting solar wind. Clicky here for some in-depth info.
 

Offline T_Bone

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2004, 10:42:41 PM »
Quote

ivier wrote:
Myth: Chlorophyll is green
Fact: Most Chlorophyll on Earth is green, BUT alot of it is purple, and has 70% efficiency when compared to green chlorophylls. Green however is NOT neccessarily as efficent as chlorophyll can get, just the most efficient, that earth life has found. 95% of all plant species on earth use green chlorophyll, but theres still the other 4.9999999% using purple. but there are other chlorophylls as well, they are quite rare, usually found in unusual algae and moss.

To say mars has no photosythisizing life because there is no green, is the same as saying, a city has no taxis, because there are no yellow cars.


Hell, who's to say all life would even be carbon based to begin with? here we are looking for green and carbon dioxide, while it's possible there's grey's excreting sand as a byproduct of silicone based respiration.
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Offline KennyR

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2004, 11:06:24 PM »
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T_Bone wrote:
Hell, who's to say all life would even be carbon based to begin with? here we are looking for green and carbon dioxide, while it's possible there's grey's excreting sand as a byproduct of silicone based respiration.


Silicon-based life will never be anything more than sci-fi. Silicon shares many properties with carbon, but it does not form long chains. Carbon forms a bewildering number of compounds. Silicon does not. It's too metallic and doesn't like covalent bonds - especially not with itself.

Silicon makes rocks. Carbon makes chemistry.

It may be boring to most people, but the reason life is carbon based and green is the same way large planets are round - they just can't be any other way.
 

Offline blobranaTopic starter

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2004, 11:53:42 PM »
Hum,
plants are green because the sun is a yellow star, and the earth atmosphere lets in a limited electromagnetic range...

The leaves look green because that part of the spectrum is les energetic and reflected back...(er, leaves are every colour , apart, from greeen...)
I remember that there are a lot of red fish, because the red colour is absorbed by the water, so the fish become less of a target to predators.

As for silicon life forms , i personally can`t rule it out. but, silicon (which can form long chains) are very unstable: and require a cold environment, so chemical reactions would correspondingly take longer...(and silicon based life may require longer than 13 billion years to `happen`)




[it is strange how everything just seems right for life in this universe though (not in a mystical way!)...]

Offline T_Bone

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2004, 12:14:14 AM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
Quote
T_Bone wrote:
Hell, who's to say all life would even be carbon based to begin with? here we are looking for green and carbon dioxide, while it's possible there's grey's excreting sand as a byproduct of silicone based respiration.


Silicon-based life will never be anything more than sci-fi. Silicon shares many properties with carbon, but it does not form long chains. Carbon forms a bewildering number of compounds. Silicon does not. It's too metallic and doesn't like covalent bonds - especially not with itself.

Silicon makes rocks. Carbon makes chemistry.

It may be boring to most people, but the reason life is carbon based and green is the same way large planets are round - they just can't be any other way.


For someone so liberal in politics, you sure are an old conservative fart in other areas ;-)

Life need not necessarily be anything resembling that on earth, for all we know, the next lifeform may resemble self reproducing nanobots more than they do organisms.
 

Something just crossed my mind, I wonder if something would necessarily have to be self reproducing to be considered alive?
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Offline whabang

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2004, 09:52:43 AM »
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Something just crossed my mind, I wonder if something would necessarily have to be self reproducing to be considered alive?

There has been certain disputes about viruses' being or non-being, AFAIK.
Beating the dead horse since 2002.
 

Offline T_Bone

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2004, 11:25:08 AM »
Quote

whabang wrote:
Quote

Something just crossed my mind, I wonder if something would necessarily have to be self reproducing to be considered alive?

There has been certain disputes about viruses' being or non-being, AFAIK.


I was thinking more along the lines of, like, say we found GOD  floating around wearing a white robe and smoking a pipe. Ok, maybe not god, but something that's obviously alive/intelligent. Do we actually have to hold him to self replicating in order to consider him alive? Even if the thing is smart enough to argue the point on his own?  :lol:

Never mind... just woke from a really strange Monty Python-esqe dream.  :-P
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Offline whabang

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2004, 11:34:25 AM »
@T-bone
Well, God did have a son, didn't he? :-)
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Offline blobranaTopic starter

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2004, 12:49:20 PM »
Didn`t she?




[but it could all have been a huge farcical mix-up...
concocted up by a strange desert sect, living on a small planet on the edge of the galaxy...] :-)

Offline odin

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2004, 12:52:31 PM »
Quote

whabang wrote:
@T-bone
Well, God did have a son, didn't he? :-)

Ah yes, but Jesus *is* God, is he not? :-)

Offline Karlos

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2004, 08:49:52 PM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
Silicon-based life will never be anything more than sci-fi. Silicon shares many properties with carbon, but it does not form long chains. Carbon forms a bewildering number of compounds. Silicon does not. It's too metallic and doesn't like covalent bonds - especially not with itself.

Silicon makes rocks. Carbon makes chemistry.



I agree that silicon based life isn't likely, but the rest of the statement is not entirely accurate. Whilst silicon doesn't enjoy forming bonds with itself, the sp3 hybrid derived sigma bond is known for Si-Si just like carbon and a whole bunch of silanes comparable to the alkanes are known. There are even compounds that have a 3p - 3p pi bond (but you have to put rather large blocking groups on the silicon.

However, they seriously don't like exposure to free oxygen :-)

As for general silicon chemistry, virtually all compounds of silicon are toward's the covalent end of the bonding spectrum. The only thing approaching ionic silicon compounds are alkali / alkaline earth metal silides, careful hydrolysis of which was the first practical preperation of the silanes above.

As for the number of compounds, the Si-O-Si linkage is almost as versatile as the C-C linkage and there are an inestimatable number of possible combinations based on silicon-oxygen chains.
int p; // A
 

Offline ivier

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2004, 11:47:02 PM »
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However, they seriously don't like exposure to free oxygen  :-)


TRUE, but, long chain carbon molecules don't like oxygen either, infact most early life was killed by oxygen.

The whole reason oxygen breathing organisisms dominate the planet earth (right behind carbondioxide breathers) is this.
Most methane breathers exhale oxygen, most carbon dioxide breathers exhale oxygen, most(all?) oxygen breathers exhale carbon dioxide.

So while early earth was saturated in methane and carbon dioxide, most things produced alot of oxygen. When methane breathers breathed oxygen, they litterally burned up, too much energy at once. carbon dioxide breathers choked on the oxygen.

 The oxygen continued to rise uncontrolled, eventually escaping into the atmosphere. mixing in the atmosphere with vast amount of methane ofcourse resulted in a very explosive atmosphere. Lightening would spark vast firestorms that would race across the sky, devouring the methane, and the oxygen, producing alot of carbon dioxide. The methane breathers gasped for breathe as the methane was rapidly depleted. Most ofthe methane breathers died, leaving only the ones clutching to life in the bottoms of the deep oceans. Meanwhile a new form of life had come around, an oxygen breather, it stayed close to the carbon dioxide breathers who were busy producing oxygen from the almost completely carbon dioxide atmosphere.

now we all know that carbon dioxide is a green house gas, but what you might not know, is methane is a much better greenhouse gas, the world has been kept at a good warm tempreture in the early solar system, when the sun was a little bit cooler, the loss of the methane resulted in the first of many ice ages to come, the big ice age, snowball earth. Glaciers covered the continent(s) [this is pre-pangea], the oceans froze over, the ice at the equator was hungreds maybe even thousands of feet deep. The world was seemingly dead. Beneath the ice, life continued, co2 breathers clung to the ice, straining to feel the light that only barely trickleded through (ice being less dense then water allows light deeper down, though more scattered) the o2 breathers hung close to thier vital air supply. some of the o2 beathers eventually started munching on the co2 breathers, which threatened the vital o2. other o2 breathers responded by munching on the 'herbivores'

Above the ice, as the sun grows still hotter, the co2 starts playing it's role as a greenhouse gas and the world over tho course of 100,000 years begins to defrost. When the first openings in the ice occurs, the 02 escapes into the atmosphere, slowing the warming process. it will take a million years before the ice fully recedes into nothing more than caps.

The co2 breathers at the gaps explode in numbers, and produce massive amounts of o2, the o2 breathers explode in numbers as well, consuming the o2 almost as fast as it's produced, but massive amounts of the cooling o2 gas still makes it's way into the atmosphere, to play havoc at a later date. in the ice gaps near land, some of the plants, make thier way onto living on shore, just a slime at the edge of the oceans. some of the minute animals, also pull thier hard exoskeletal bodies to shore, and feed on this slimey plant life.

The bugs find the reproductive parts of the plant to be the most nurishing, so the plants that keep those parts highest out of reach of the bugs survive more often, they quickly grow to an inch in height, far from the mearly microscopic bugs reach. some of the bugs respond, by learning to jump, others devolop pointy protrusions which gives them a better grip for climbing or pulling, while others devlop both. The plants grow still taller, and taller stretching upwards, to a foot, then a meter, and tens of meters. some of the bugs eventually grow wings, and learn to fly, and thus began the age of insects, and the end of snowball earth.

Snowball earth was the 2nd cataclysm (that i know of). the first created the moon, which would shape life for thousands of millenia to come.

-- Back to Mars --

Mars is in a very extended snowball stage, one that is difficult to recover from, but all it would have taken is a single microbe to survive the initial cataclysm, and mars will be teeming with life, across its surface, probably single cellular, or maybe even sub scopic multicellular. the conditions of mars are not friendly enough for anything much larger then a large flea. such creatures will likely stay very close to thier food source, maybe even farming it like some ants do. most likely in underground colonies, where they can control the enviromental conditions somewhat.

Martian colonial creatures might do various things to improve thier living conditions. One that seems quite possible, but that i have not even heard of earth life doing. Is pressuring thier underground colonies, with a series of airlocks. The airlocks (and all walls of the colony) would be made of some excreted material which is consumed and re-excreted to open and close them. inside the colony, the creatures would have a larger tempreture range in which water could exist in liquid form.

The tempreture would be kept in this range by collections of well fed organisms,  which constantly vibrate thier bodies to generate heat.

Pressure would be maintained by some of the creatures going outside, taking a deep breathe, and going back inside to exhale it.

To gather liquid water for thier gardens, they would likely excrete an antifreeze onto some frost in the early morning to melt it, then sip it up.

If thier gardens required atleast some light, i could see them packing the 'martian plants' into thier bodies and taking them to the surface at dawn, keeping thier insides pressurized for the benifit of the gardens, and laying in the sun until dusk. during this time they would be tended by others of thier colony providing water and nutrients the gardens would need during the day.

There would ofcourse also be solitary creatures which raid the colonial creatures nests, for food, wither it be the colonial creatures themselves, or the gardens they tend.

The raider would either have a burrow of it's own, that it hordes it's food in, or it would freeze solid at night and hibernate, or maybe even live in the colonial creatures nest, pretending to be one of them.

The colonial creatures would have to defend thier nest from these raiders, so they would likely develop methods of fighting simular to the colonial insects of earth. apon being detected the raider would be clobered by hordes of the colonial creatures, dismembered, and used as a mulch in thier garden.

The point of this post is ofcourse, that if something survives a global catacysm it will likely adapt, the life of earth adapted to being frozen over (on multple occasions). If any life on mars survived, it will have adapted and still be there, but we probably won't see it, unless it crawls across the camera lens, because it'll be quite small. Only in abundance do things grow very big, and we can plainly see mars does not have anything other then reddish soil and ice in abundance.
 

Offline blobranaTopic starter

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2004, 12:38:19 AM »
Hum,

There is more biomass inside the earth than on the surface

On mars there is an abundance of sulphur, hydrogen, c02 etc...
more so deep down, say 5 to 20 mile deep...in solid rock, no need for cracks or `air pockets`...

i imagine that there are a few earth life forms that would easily survive those harsh Martian conditions...




[remember Dune?]

Offline ivier

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2004, 02:24:36 AM »
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There is more biomass inside the earth than on the surface


quite true, but finding subterrainian life on mars is difficult, especially deep subterrainian, it's much lass likely to find them with any near future prove, than anything living just below or even on the surface.

i personally hope for the pressurized nest, insect like creatures.