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Offline NickTopic starter

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Space propulsion
« on: February 28, 2004, 12:56:22 PM »
Hello. I`m designing a space craft for a large animation I`m planning on making. Its a Search And Rescue (SAR) type craft. Just wondering if any of you have any ideas on how I could make it VTOL? I first thought of rocket motors, because they`re starting to "come back into fashion" at the moment. But then I thought, that wouldn`t work because you`d fry anybody you`re rescuing. :-)

Any of you know if Ion drives would work? I know they`re good in space, but what about in an atmosphere? Could they be developed to provide enough thrust? and would it harm anybody under it?

I`m trying to make the animation fairly believable. If Ion drives are good enough in an atmosphere, that would solve my other problem. Getting out of the atmopshere. I don`t want loads of different engines. The craft isn`t supposed to be huge, or travel huge distances anyway (in space terms anyway).

I was thinking of Ion in space, Some sort of efficient jet for cruising and hovering in an atmosphere and an efficient rocket for exiting a planets gravity, but 3 engines!? A tad complex!

Any idea?

Thanks
Nick
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2004, 01:17:44 PM »
Quote

Nick wrote:
Hello. I`m designing a space craft for a large animation I`m planning on making. Its a Search And Rescue (SAR) type craft. Just wondering if any of you have any ideas on how I could make it VTOL? I first thought of rocket motors, because they`re starting to "come back into fashion" at the moment. But then I thought, that wouldn`t work because you`d fry anybody you`re rescuing. :-)

Any of you know if Ion drives would work? I know they`re good in space, but what about in an atmosphere? Could they be developed to provide enough thrust? and would it harm anybody under it?

I`m trying to make the animation fairly believable. If Ion drives are good enough in an atmosphere, that would solve my other problem. Getting out of the atmopshere. I don`t want loads of different engines. The craft isn`t supposed to be huge, or travel huge distances anyway (in space terms anyway).

I was thinking of Ion in space, Some sort of efficient jet for cruising and hovering in an atmosphere and an efficient rocket for exiting a planets gravity, but 3 engines!? A tad complex!

Any idea?

Thanks
Nick


Ion drives suck, both in space and in atmosphears. The most eficient method for VTOL is to put a big fan on top and call it a helicopter.

Offline NickTopic starter

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2004, 01:40:24 PM »
Hehe I did think of that. this thing is sort of supposed to be helicopter like.

Sod it I`ll invent technology. :-D Some sort of Ion type drive, which works in all situations, end some sort of cold jet engine. Perfect! :-)
 

Offline that_punk_guy

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2004, 03:01:00 PM »
Heck, just stick a nice shiny light on there. No-one asked any questions when Gene Roddenberry did that.

Incidentally, no-one ever asked why the Warp Nacelle Pylons were so flimsy-looking:



Surely the stress of warp-speed propulsion would break these babies off? Was this ever accounted for? (Not much of a Trekkie, really.)
 

Offline JaXanim

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2004, 05:05:53 PM »
The problem with any system producing 'thrust' is that in order to hover over your rescuees, they will be subjected to a downward force equal to the weight of the craft. Not good. You could have sideways extending arms which hold the thrusters I suppose.

The helicopter works in this situation because its downward thrust is spread over a wide area and the resuees under the body are largely shielded from the downdraft.

What your spacecraft needs is an antigravity drive. That way, you would have no downward thrust at all. Since you plan on designing new technology for your craft, an antigravity drive should be pretty simple I would have thought. ;)

Cheers,

JaX

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Offline FluffyMcDeath

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2004, 05:38:11 PM »
If you want to be all sci-fi, do the "unknown means of propulsion" thing with glowing and humming.

If you want to stay closer to current times, I'd go with a set of ducted fans.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2004, 06:35:53 PM »
In the future propulsion will be intertialess anyway and so won't need vents or exhaust ports. :-P
 

Offline that_punk_guy

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2004, 07:48:40 PM »
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KennyR wrote:
In the future propulsion will be intertialess anyway and so won't need vents or exhaust ports. :-P


Technically, it wouldn't then be propulsion, would it? :-P
 

Offline JaXanim

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2004, 08:00:33 PM »
@that_punk_guy

Presumably he's talking about molecular disintegration/reintegration similar to the Brundle concept.

Sounds good, but don't let any flies in!

JaX
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Offline KennyR

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2004, 08:20:52 PM »
No, I mean movement by using a phased and vectored, artificially generated gravitational field. You just fall in whatever direction you like, using the closest large mass to apply your force against. So technically it would be propulsion - but it wouldn't involve inertia, ie. throwing something backwards to go forwards.
 

Offline that_punk_guy

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2004, 08:46:06 PM »
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KennyR wrote:
No, I mean movement by using a phased and vectored, artificially generated gravitational field. You just fall in whatever direction you like, using the closest large mass to apply your force against. So technically it would be propulsion - but it wouldn't involve inertia, ie. throwing something backwards to go forwards.


That way aren't you just overcoming inertia much more efficiently? It's something I haven't thought about before, but doesn't even gravity have to overcome the inertia of a falling object to some extent - even though it's small enough that you could say it was free of inertia?

(I'm attempting to spark interesting conversation, because there's not enough of it at the moment... and probably failing miserably... ;-))
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2004, 09:08:42 PM »
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tpg wrote:
That way aren't you just overcoming inertia much more efficiently?


Well technically yes, but you're pushing against the more massive body using the curvature of space itself, so the inertia of your own craft is cancelled out (which is what you want). Basically, you're creating space between where you were and where you want to be. This means you don't have to expend most of the mass of the craft in fuel just flinging it out the back.

Of course it still involves inertia though - ye canna break the laws o' physics, capn.
 

Offline JaXanim

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2004, 10:53:32 PM »
@KennyR

Ultimately, in the far and distant future, the problem of travel will be resolved by quantum physics. You need to get from A to B. As things stand, you must pass across the intervening space, enjoying the countryside if you will. We 'have a nice journey' - or not, as the case may be. However, using Brundle's principle (yea I know it was only a movie, but humour me) the ultimate traveller never does that. He is either at A or at B and nowhere else.

This happens with sub-atomic particles (electrons, etc) right now. Electrons easily move from inner to outer 'orbits' around the atomic nucleus, but they do not 'move' between these orbits. They are either at A or B but never between. They are powered by quantum energy, energy packets of specific size, no more no less. This is gained or lost by the electrons through thermodynamic changes within their parent system.

In that far, far distant future, I see no reason why the particles which make up our atoms cannot be 'moved' from A to B by applying Terajoules of quantum energy in some form of 'Brundle cage'.

Cheers,  

JaX
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Offline JaXanim

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2004, 10:59:47 PM »
@nick

Hows the spacecraft coming along?

JaX
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Offline that_punk_guy

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Re: Space propulsion
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2004, 11:00:03 PM »
As long as we don't turn people into baboon stew in the process, I'm happy. :-)