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Author Topic: GPL RTG driver information available  (Read 15833 times)

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Offline kolla

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 03:06:37 PM »
That's not in Europe, so what is your point?

I too can toss around links...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-05-02/copyright-can-t-block-software-reverse-engineering-court
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Offline HeiroglyphTopic starter

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Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 03:08:34 PM »
Thomas,

I have the utmost respect for you and your work and I have absolutely no intention of making you mad or arguing with you. In fact, very much the opposite, however, we disagree on this point, so I'd like to make my position clear and discuss rationally.

I'm not patching their code and I'm not using their source.

Because I've never signed a document to receive the DDK, I'm merely a user of their software.

What I'm releasing is merely a piece of non-commercial software that is compatible with their binaries.

I don't believe that the clause you seem to be concerned with applies to this and if it did, I don't believe that it could be legally binding.

This is as clear a case of interoperability as I could think of and that is protected by law in many countries.
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 03:58:35 PM »
The question is how sure can you be that the source code in UAE at no point contained (disassembled) P96 code.

Given that the author didn't even bother providing a proper copyright header speaks volumes about you being able to make that call.

All this is offcourse legal fineprint in a case that will most likely never see a court day, but it will for ever be unknown wether you are p###ing on the hard work invested in P96, or if those orginal authors are trying to pull a Kruse.....
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 04:06:08 PM by Kronos »
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline HeiroglyphTopic starter

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Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2016, 04:14:32 PM »
Quote from: Kronos;808579
The question is how sure can you be that the source code in UAE at no point contained (disassembled) P96 code.

Given that the author didn't even bother providing a proper copyright header speaks volumes about you being able to make that call.

All this is offcourse legal fineprint in a case that will most likely never see a court day, but it will for ever be unknown wether you are p###ing on the hard work invested in P96, or if those orginal authors are trying to pull a Kruse.....


From what I understand, Brian King (?) had the DDK legally. Possibly other UAE developers as well.

The Picasso96 installer specifically lists UAE as a supported option, so they were aware that it was used in a GPL'ed application and gave support for it.

The question would really come down to "is UAE legally GPL or does UAE break the Picasso DDK license?"

Given that Picasso explicitly lists UAE as an option, that leads me to believe that UAE does not break the Picasso DDK license.

This is based on UAE and uses the same GPL license, so I believe it to be as legal as UAE.

If I had to read between the lines, I'd say that if you make money off of it, they want their cut. UAE and other GPL drivers are not commercial so there is no cut for them to care about.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2016, 04:17:35 PM »
Quote from: Kronos;808579
The question is how sure can you be that the source code in UAE at no point contained (disassembled) P96 code.

Given that the author didn't even bother providing a proper copyright head speaks volumes about you being able to make that call.

All this is offcourse legal fineprint in a case that will most likely never see a court day, but it will for ever be unknown wether you are p###ing of the hard work invested in P96, or if those orginal authors are trying to pull a Kruse.....

Who cares? Sorry to say that we have a phrase in german "als ob ein Sack Reis in China umfallen würde" (Thomas understands it). It is a hobby platform people only doing something on it for fun and hobby, no serious money to earn. P96 was a worthless software now as many other software from the past. The only reason why it suddenly became realistic to ask for money (and the copyright owners obviously only want money but will certainly not invest time in it) is because a small group of dedicated people invested several years in a project because they wanted to realize their NG 68k amiga and they still do not earn money with it. Now Thomas answers that they ask for money for the card, yes as long they do not get the hardware for free they cannot give the cards for free. I vote Thomas for the most senseless discussions in amiga terms (and there are lots of them). If the copyright owners think that anyone is violating copyright by someone then they are free to act. As far as I know Thomas is not and despite that he is involved now for months. In terms of outside world this all is silly anyway, we talk about a super-tiny micro market. Now even some (including Thomas) start to talk about legality of UAE. Acting against opensource community is a dangerous undertaking, I would recommend anyone not to do that... except you want to create maximum number of enemies in short time
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 04:20:27 PM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline HeiroglyphTopic starter

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Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2016, 04:56:05 PM »
I would like to make it clear that while I believe I am in the clear legally, if they were still developing and supporting the software I would cut them some slack and not leverage the legal system over courtesy.

By all appearances, they are not a part of the community anymore. At that point, legality is really all that matters IMHO.
 

Offline Acill

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2016, 05:10:27 PM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;808587
I would like to make it clear that while I believe I am in the clear legally, if they were still developing and supporting the software I would cut them some slack and not leverage the legal system over courtesy.

By all appearances, they are not a part of the community anymore. At that point, legality is really all that matters IMHO.


I have to agree with you on this one. The only thing keeping it alive is people like you wanting to use it to extend our systems. If they ever updated it and showed even slight new activity it would be a different story. I also have to lean more in agreement with the installer showing UAE as an option pointing that they felt the same way at one time and allowed for it to be used in this way.

This is a great thread and has some interesting insight on how people feel. I would like to keep it clean as it had been. Lets not pollute it and keep the conversation factual and relevant please.
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Offline HeiroglyphTopic starter

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Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2016, 02:44:03 AM »
I've just changed the license to LGPL at Jason McMullen's suggestion.

There are serious problems with GPL libraries on Amiga-like OSs.
 

guest11527

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Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 07:51:32 AM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;808578
Because I've never signed a document to receive the DDK, I'm merely a user of their software.
You're using a closed API, an API that requires licensing. This might be problematic. You're depending your work on a copyrighted source (I assume on the UAE source, right?), a source with - also - unclear license conditions.
 

guest11527

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Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2016, 08:03:08 AM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;808582
From what I understand, Brian King (?) had the DDK legally.  
I did some research on this. It's not so easy. Brian King got indeed some information on the P96 driver API, but there was never a formal contract. In particular, I would really hesitate to believe (based on that) that he had a license to sub-license or transfer the license to others. However, this is really required by the GPL. So that part of the UAE source does not seem to be under GPL.

In fact, if you check the file, it says "(c) Brian King" in the header, and it does not have the usual GPL clause on top. So it's really questionable in which state this file is, and whether you are allowed to derive any third party work from it.  
Quote from: Heiroglyph;808582
Given that Picasso explicitly lists UAE as an option, that leads me to believe that UAE does not break the Picasso DDK license.
Possibly not, but is it GPL itself? It's at least questionable. For that, Brian King would have to have a transferable license on the DDK, but in fact - he got nothing, no formal contract, no license.    
Quote from: Heiroglyph;808582
If I had to read between the lines, I'd say that if you make money off of it, they want their cut. UAE and other GPL drivers are not commercial so there is no cut for them to care about.

The trouble is now that: While I agree with your conclusion, that's nothing that is formalized in the GPL. You *can* make money from the GPL. T&A would have been much better if they would have put the DDK under CC-BY-NC, or something similar with a NC clause.

In the end, put it what you like, but the license situation is quite unsatisfactory with UAE, or any work derived from an API whose owners consider it proprietary. If you put that under GPL or LGPL, you're putting yourself under some risk - as you release it under (L)GPL and hence make some claims about its availability and possibility to use it in other projects. Promises that currently do not hold, or that at least are unclear, or at least unclear in some countries.

If you call that sloppy licensing from the original authors, I surely agree. But that doesn't mean that the story has to continue like this. What you're currently doing is again a sloppy/risky scheme by not knowing the details and backgrounds.  

Again, if you want to be on firm grounds, "re-implementing" a closed source API does not help much. It only continues the trouble. As said, you have two options: Either try to get a valid license (and for (L)GPL, a *transferable* license) from the owners, or reimplement an rtg system with its own API.

So I don't quite see in how far your attempt can possibly clear up the situation. It cannot. It just  adds more uncertainty on uncertainty.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2016, 09:26:00 AM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;808619
I've just changed the license to LGPL at Jason McMullen's suggestion.

There are serious problems with GPL libraries on Amiga-like OSs.


mcmullan.. ;) good move. thats at least more convenient in case of aros. openpci might deserve similar treatment. whats jasons involvement, anyway?

btw, the legality of this might still need to be confirmed, imho, before it meets any serious use.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 09:30:03 AM by wawrzon »
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2016, 09:44:00 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;808629
in fact - he got nothing, no formal contract, no license.    

[...]
If you call that sloppy licensing from the original authors, I surely agree. But that doesn't mean that the story has to continue like this. What you're currently doing is again a sloppy/risky scheme by not knowing the details and backgrounds.  

Again, if you want to be on firm grounds, "re-implementing" a closed source API does not help much. It only continues the trouble. As said, you have two options: Either try to get a valid license (and for (L)GPL, a *transferable* license) from the owners, or reimplement an rtg system with its own API.

So I don't quite see in how far your attempt can possibly clear up the situation. It cannot. It just  adds more uncertainty on uncertainty.


sloopy licensing.. i literally imagine how this went, under the table, with some loosely worded hints and appointments as the one invitiation to table towards gunnar. no wonder, the subject of these appointments was worth nothing, worth no time to set up any written agreement, and it is still worth nothing or almost nothing. and since the ends went loose once you will hardly be able catch them again let alone bind them together. dont phantasize, that the situation might ever legally improve, it can only get worse, from your point of view. athropy even if gradually. and this concerns many if not most dealings around "amiga" this days, not only p96, but also deeds of the entities you consider secure. probably the only actually legal island aroud here, of any, is whats been developed as open source.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2016, 10:04:26 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;808629
I did some research on this. It's not so easy. Brian King got indeed some information on the P96 driver API, but there was never a formal contract. In particular, I would really hesitate to believe (based on that) that he had a license to sub-license or transfer the license to others. However, this is really required by the GPL. So that part of the UAE source does not seem to be under GPL.

In fact, if you check the file, it says "(c) Brian King" in the header, and it does not have the usual GPL clause on top. So it's really questionable in which state this file is, and whether you are allowed to derive any third party work from it.   Possibly not, but is it GPL itself? It's at least questionable. For that, Brian King would have to have a transferable license on the DDK, but in fact - he got nothing, no formal contract, no license.    

The trouble is now that: While I agree with your conclusion, that's nothing that is formalized in the GPL. You *can* make money from the GPL. T&A would have been much better if they would have put the DDK under CC-BY-NC, or something similar with a NC clause.

In the end, put it what you like, but the license situation is quite unsatisfactory with UAE, or any work derived from an API whose owners consider it proprietary. If you put that under GPL or LGPL, you're putting yourself under some risk - as you release it under (L)GPL and hence make some claims about its availability and possibility to use it in other projects. Promises that currently do not hold, or that at least are unclear, or at least unclear in some countries.

If you call that sloppy licensing from the original authors, I surely agree. But that doesn't mean that the story has to continue like this. What you're currently doing is again a sloppy/risky scheme by not knowing the details and backgrounds.  

Again, if you want to be on firm grounds, "re-implementing" a closed source API does not help much. It only continues the trouble. As said, you have two options: Either try to get a valid license (and for (L)GPL, a *transferable* license) from the owners, or reimplement an rtg system with its own API.

So I don't quite see in how far your attempt can possibly clear up the situation. It cannot. It just  adds more uncertainty on uncertainty.

Why are you extending your crusade now to UAE? It is really annoying...

BTW I have contacted Tobias Abt (I hope email is still valid) to clarify it or this discussion by hobby attorneys also not knowing the situation will go on forever... it is already boring
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 10:40:13 AM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline nicholas

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2016, 12:20:25 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;808628
You're using a closed API, an API that requires licensing. This might be problematic.


Did Tobias and Alexander get a licence from Frank Mariak when they implemented his CGX API in the product they sold and made money from?

Was it problematic for them? (Legally or "morally")
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Offline OlafS3

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2016, 12:56:30 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;808642
Did Tobias and Alexander get a licence from Frank Mariak when they implemented his CGX API in the product they sold and made money from?

Was it problematic for them? (Legally or "morally")

I am in contact with Tobias Abt to (finally) clarify the situation
 

Offline nicholas

Re: GPL RTG driver information available
« Reply #29 from previous page: May 17, 2016, 01:19:56 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;808643
I am in contact with Tobias Abt to (finally) clarify the situation


Best of luck!
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