Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...

[kolla]

I am lost - what happened before between Apollo team and P96 authors? Has the Vampire2 existed long enough to make the P96 authors grumpy already? Hilarious.

[wawrzon]

I am lost - what happened before between Apollo team and P96 authors? Has the Vampire2 existed long enough to make the P96 authors grumpy already? Hilarious.

apparently while the general practice seems simply to silently take some driver or monitor file and rename it accordingly (it happened once, while it still seems somehow tolerated, while not welcome), tha apollo team seems to have approached the p96 people properly in order to establish an agreement. as result, there seems to be a debacle, especially that some third party entered (or ruined) negotiations.. in my eyes the whole standard (if it is a standard, that is) needs to be avoided, due to non transparent situation. there is no clear public statements of the creators of p96, as of whats their position, a lot of hearsay, accusations and the like is underway. it simply demanstrates that the affairs around amiga proprietary software need to be circumnavidated taking furthest possible distance..

[guest11527]

apparently while the general practice seems simply to silently take some driver or monitor file and rename it accordingly (it happened once, while it still seems somehow tolerated, while not welcome), tha apollo team seems to have approached the p96 people properly in order to establish an agreement. as result, there seems to be a debacle, especially that some third party entered (or ruined) negotiations..

Actually, no. Appollo always negotiated with a third party, and could not come to an agreement - an agreement which would have included P96 as part of the deal, as there was also an agreement between this third party and the owners of P96. *That* by itself is not a problem. Business is business, and parties may or may not come together. I do not have a problem with *that*.

However, if you do not come to an agreement, you either need to negotiate directly with the owners (another party), or you cannot use the component you want to make use of. Just first canceling negotiations, but then still using the component is not my understatement of how business works, and certainly not "gentlemen like". I cannot first say "thank you, we don't want to make business with you", and then still use third party work as if nothing happened. If I do not want a deal, I have no deal, with all consequences.  

 in my eyes the whole standard (if it is a standard, that is) needs to be avoided, due to non transparent situation. there is no clear public statements of the creators of p96, as of whats their position, a lot of hearsay, accusations and the like is underway. it simply demanstrates that the affairs around amiga proprietary software need to be circumnavidated taking furthest possible distance..

Why do you need a public statement of the owners? Why do negotiations have to be run in public? Why do *you* need to care? It's not your software, it's neither your hardware. You're none of the parties involved here.

It's clear who owns P96 (Tobias Abt and Alex Kneer), and its up to them to define license conditions or sell it whomever they want to sell it to. The situation in that respect is actually quite clear - quite the opposite.

The reason why I care (if you care) is that I tried to get people together, and I also talked to Tobias and Alex, and ensured them that Gunnar is a guy they could trust, and he would respect copyright and licenses. Well, now this license breach falls now back to me by recommending someone who does not act "gentlemen like", and unlike promised, could not be trusted. Thank you.

[wawrzon]

Why do you need a public statement of the owners? Why do negotiations have to be run in public? Why do *you* need to care? It's not your software, it's neither your hardware. You're none of the parties involved here.

because thats the matter of issues with this community, you can never be sure if you, as a user can even consider using something legally or at least under fair conditions. just look up the history of posts considering different legal or illegal battles and accusations that have taken place around different forums. i didnt bought into apollo project nor im a part of the team, but it interests me and i would like to support it. similarly i simpatize with other amiga hardware projects, as the one on topic here. however relaying on a closed source software components appears as an inpracticable solution to me. not because i do not respect the developers, but because (de facto) i observe repeated inability to come to agreements and a tendence to simply circumnavigate such issues. in a long term none is served well in this way. neither the original developers, nor the users, nor the projects themselves.

[kolla]

Clearly they enjoy their position as one of the many Amiga hostage takers, I have zero understanding for their attitudes. Chris Hodges was in a similar position with Poseidon, and came to a much more productive conclusion.

[grond]

Who was that third party Apollo exclusively negotiated with according to your recollection of this story? And who brought it into play?

For all I know Gunnar did have direct contact with the picasso guys. They were ok with apollo using picasso, there was something about an invitation to dinner in return and some remark stating that parties could talk again if there was any serious money involved.

[OlafS3]

Actually, no. Appollo always negotiated with a third party, and could not come to an agreement - an agreement which would have included P96 as part of the deal, as there was also an agreement between this third party and the owners of P96. *That* by itself is not a problem. Business is business, and parties may or may not come together. I do not have a problem with *that*.

However, if you do not come to an agreement, you either need to negotiate directly with the owners (another party), or you cannot use the component you want to make use of. Just first canceling negotiations, but then still using the component is not my understatement of how business works, and certainly not "gentlemen like". I cannot first say "thank you, we don't want to make business with you", and then still use third party work as if nothing happened. If I do not want a deal, I have no deal, with all consequences.  



Why do you need a public statement of the owners? Why do negotiations have to be run in public? Why do *you* need to care? It's not your software, it's neither your hardware. You're none of the parties involved here.

It's clear who owns P96 (Tobias Abt and Alex Kneer), and its up to them to define license conditions or sell it whomever they want to sell it to. The situation in that respect is actually quite clear - quite the opposite.

The reason why I care (if you care) is that I tried to get people together, and I also talked to Tobias and Alex, and ensured them that Gunnar is a guy they could trust, and he would respect copyright and licenses. Well, now this license breach falls now back to me by recommending someone who does not act "gentlemen like", and unlike promised, could not be trusted. Thank you.

It is "your" software? Why do you care there too?

Ok you feel disappointed by Gunnar but there are two business entities, Gunnar with his project and the owners of P96. They should negotiate and come to agreement or not. If not it is their problem, not mine and not yours. If the current acting is violating copyright the owners of copyright are free to act if they think to do so. Again not mine or your problem. If I understand it right you think the apollo team is not violating in a legal sense but they are morally in duty. But moral is not the same as violating laws or copyrights. I do not know what happened during negotiations and honestly I do not really care. If the owners of P96 would be anyhow interested in the community or how people think they would make some sort of open letters to say how they see it or at least make it possible to license it again. They do not because they do not care about amiga anymore. They would have been not against taking some money of course, who could blame them for it. But again, not your or mine problem. For that reason I stay away from anything of amiga past, all cursed. There was and is no common sense by many former developers. And should I tell you a secret... noone outside cares about amiga anymore (perhaps you know already). You cannot earn money anymore and compared to the big platforms you will never earn money again. The apollo project created in several years of development something that gave back some value and opened some doors. Gunnar and others do not really earn money with it to keep it relative cheap. Now all who have left the community a long time ago are suddenly popping up again requesting money, propably more than the apollo devs now earn with it without giving any support for their products. If they do it is not our problem again but theirs.

[guest11527]

It is "your" software? Why do you care there too?

Read my last paragraph.

[guest11527]

Who was that third party Apollo exclusively negotiated with according to your recollection of this story? And who brought it into play?

If Gunnar doesn't tell you, why should I?  

For all I know Gunnar did have direct contact with the picasso guys. They were ok with apollo using picasso,  

Indeed, that was the interim agreement we made a year ago, for testing and development. Actually, not "directly" at all. Indirectly, via me - which is the whole point why I'm so upset. Now things get productive, there is some serious money involved as cards are sold to end users, and look where we are. No licensing. Thank you.

[Cosmos Amiga]

Tobias Abt and Alex Kneer

The best solution is to put these two f*ckers in jail : no license problem anymore then...

[grond]

Actually there is no money being made which should be obvious when looking at the vampire prices. Gunnar has not earned a single penny in all this time. If he has any interest in all this, it is about making a fast compatible core. Regarding selling boards, it's all kipper's business and he's reinvesting all he gathers from selling his handsoldered cards. No money has ever been passed around within the team.

[Lord Aga]

However, if you do not come to an agreement, you either need to negotiate directly with the owners (another party), or you cannot use the component you want to make use of. Just first canceling negotiations, but then still using the component is not my understatement of how business works, and certainly not "gentlemen like". I cannot first say "thank you, we don't want to make business with you", and then still use third party work as if nothing happened. If I do not want a deal, I have no deal, with all consequences.  

Well, I agree. This is how business should be done, with proper manners and chivalry.

EXCEPT !!!

In Amigaland where there's always some dense mofo who will block progress.

So the business in Amigaland should be done like this:
A: We're making something, wanna cooperate ?
B: No.
A: Screw you, we're doing this anyway!

And that's it.

Why do you need a public statement of the owners? Why do negotiations have to be run in public? Why do *you* need to care? It's not your software, it's neither your hardware. You're none of the parties involved here.

And just like that, we don't care about the authors. The moment they chose not to help they got on my 'go and F yourself list'.

The best solution is to put these two f*ckers in jail : no license problem anymore then...

And Cosmos has the right solution. +1 for that.

[OlafS3]

Well, I agree. This is how business should be done, with proper manners and chivalry.

EXCEPT !!!

In Amigaland where there's always some dense mofo who will block progress.

So the business in Amigaland should be done like this:
A: We're making something, wanna cooperate ?
B: No.
A: Screw you, we're doing this anyway!

And that's it.



And just like that, we don't care about the authors. The moment they chose not to help they got on my 'go and F yourself list'.



And Cosmos has the right solution. +1 for that.

How about this one?

I have 20 years old software that became completely worthless and I am not interested in the platform anymore
Some enthusiasts do something in several years not asking for any money because they want to develop a market anymore
I am still not interested to do something but now I can take money

And there are even users not really involved fighting for me

how about that?

People should keep them out. Lord Aga is not forced to buy or use Vampire or to use P96. Problem solved...

I do not understand why people are wasting their time with fighting for others... again noone outsides cares about it anymore

[guest11527]

Actually there is no money being made which should be obvious when looking at the vampire prices. Gunnar has not earned a single penny in all this time.  

If he has no money, he cannot use or depend on software that costs money. It's really that simple.

[guest11527]

The best solution is to put these two f*ckers in jail : no license problem anymore then...

Hold on, who is continuously breaching copyright here... They do want to sell. For money. If that's not morally right for you, you're on the wrong planet.

Not everything is for free here, and just because you want it for free does not mean you can get it.

You act like a child who is denied a lollypop... Buy one if you want one. It's really THAT simple.

[guest11527]

I have 20 years old software that became completely worthless and I am not interested in the platform anymore.

Wait a minute... so worthless I hear people here arguing all about that they want it, and use it, so worthless some third party products being developed depend on it? I don't know what I call it, but it's not "worthless". It means it has a value, and its more than fair then to sell it.