[UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.

[gregthecanuck]

afair its mostly their projects that go nowhere. instead, community based projects tend to succeed. and im a bit confused about what could they offer us under these circumstances.

I should have said "Hardware projects". Why are you a bit confused?

[kolla]

omg.. what is wrong again??? will you ever run out of complaints?

I would love to

[wawrzon]

I should have said "Hardware projects". Why are you a bit confused?

i see a number of community based hardware projects actually fluorish. mist, fpgaarcade, vampire, a number of projects by strim like the sonnetppc for mediator or 030-decellerator just to name few. okay, there are few projects that were actually obvious to fail like ultimate ppc or tina. but what does any of that has to do with hyperions constant denial of amiga as 68k platform and their habit not to deliver even what they have promissed?

[gregthecanuck]

i see a number of community based hardware projects actually fluorish. mist, fpgaarcade, vampire, a number of projects by strim like the sonnetppc for mediator or 030-decellerator just to name few. okay, there are few projects that were actually obvious to fail like ultimate ppc or tina. but what does any of that has to do with hyperions constant denial of amiga as 68k platform and their habit not to deliver even what they have promissed?

In Hyperion's case they may never decide to go with updated 68K development. And that's fine and their right. However in the long run I am trying to suggest that supporting a bigger ecosystem of 68K and PPC users is more beneficial to their company in the long run. This taking into consideration that PPC is running out of steam and the Apollo (and other 68k) cores are coming on strong. Maybe sub-licensing would work? Who knows.

But again, until any hardware is shipping in volume it isn't worth the hassle. A large user base opens up options for bounties and such.

Then again AROS may grow up enough to make any further debate pointless.

It will be interesting to watch how things play out this year.

Cheers!

[NovaCoder]

In Hyperion's case they may never decide to go with updated 68K development. And that's fine and their right. However in the long run I am trying to suggest that supporting a bigger ecosystem of 68K and PPC users is more beneficial to their company in the long run. This taking into consideration that PPC is running out of steam and the Apollo (and other 68k) cores are coming on strong. Maybe sub-licensing would work? Who knows.

But again, until any hardware is shipping in volume it isn't worth the hassle. A large user base opens up options for bounties and such.

Then again AROS may grow up enough to make any further debate pointless.

It will be interesting to watch how things play out this year.

Cheers!

Yes I agree, if they can get (cheap) Vampire boards out to enough users then it might be just the kick up the bum that AROS 68k needs to become a viable alternative to OS3.x

[QuikSanz]

Actually I have an overseas, lol, China contact that has or is making boards for many companies I've worked for and more. Good quality. If so inspired let me know I will give you contact info.

Chris

PS: He's darn cheap

[guest11527]

Honest question here - not trying to be snarky or incite a flame war: do people honestly believe that potential Vampire 2 owners are more interested in running AROS on their Amigas than 3.x?

This, indeed, is the big question, and for me the final question that needs to be answered before I'm going to invest any more time into this affair.

All I can say is the following: Whenever I mention "closed source commercial software" in this forum, I get an uproar as if this would be something morally wrong, undesired. Unfortunately, "closed source commerical software" is the only option for AmigaOs, due to the contracts of Hyperion with Amiga, Inc, and Hyperion is the only option as far as advancing the classic Os is. Yes, Cloanto has a license for 3.1, but no license to extend upon it - at least none that withstood an investigation under a court. Hyperion did that. Does that mean that I trust them? No. Does that mean that they are the ideal business partner? No. Yet, only option, bad luck.

So, what can we do?

I believe the community made a decision, or at least Gunnar made a decision for the community. The signal is quite clear "Avoid AmigaOs classic, go AROS, ditch Hyperion.". Why? Because the unwillingness to pay for the closed source licenses that go with the closed source development model. And, that in the end, pay development hours. Unfortunately, that's what the legal situation is with AmigaOs classic, and there are no means to fix it.

Then, so might it be. Everybody should know what the decision is, and everybody should be aware of the consequences, good or bad. For me it means that the history of AmigaOs stops right at this point.

[OlafS3]

This, indeed, is the big question, and for me the final question that needs to be answered before I'm going to invest any more time into this affair.

All I can say is the following: Whenever I mention "closed source commercial software" in this forum, I get an uproar as if this would be something morally wrong, undesired. Unfortunately, "closed source commerical software" is the only option for AmigaOs, due to the contracts of Hyperion with Amiga, Inc, and Hyperion is the only option as far as advancing the classic Os is. Yes, Cloanto has a license for 3.1, but no license to extend upon it - at least none that withstood an investigation under a court. Hyperion did that. Does that mean that I trust them? No. Does that mean that they are the ideal business partner? No. Yet, only option, bad luck.

So, what can we do?

I believe the community made a decision, or at least Gunnar made a decision for the community. The signal is quite clear "Avoid AmigaOs classic, go AROS, ditch Hyperion.". Why? Because the unwillingness to pay for the closed source licenses that go with the closed source development model. And, that in the end, pay development hours. Unfortunately, that's what the legal situation is with AmigaOs classic, and there are no means to fix it.

Then, so might it be. Everybody should know what the decision is, and everybody should be aware of the consequences, good or bad. For me it means that the history of AmigaOs stops right at this point.

Only short question back... would you base your whole business model and 7 years of work on Hyperion except they would give you really free and independent access so you are not dependant on the financial, legal situation at Hyperion or decisions done there. I understand that you are legal bound to Hyperion but then admit that and do not all the time claim that you are only talking in the interests of the community. It starts to nerve. Also you would have one of the few candidates doing the adaptions and certainly not without asking for "meals" like you call it. Would have been interesting to hear how big these "meals" would have been.

I have named a number of reasons why the decision was pro Aros. There is also the interview with Gunnar where he explained the project and also talked about Aros. The decisions are rational and result of the negotiations he had, what was requested and offered. Simply as that. Be adult and accept it even if you do not like it. I would not have flooded the threads with moanings when decision would have been pro 3.X

[Niding]

The whole AROS VS AOS discussion (and why I initially made a thread about it), was cause BigGun appeared to prefer to use AOS for the Vampire. But there are too much uncertainty attached to it (legal and cost), espesially considering he plans to expand Vampire capabilities beyond what AOS currently supports.

I have no problem understanding that it might be hard for Apollo-Team to risk paying a large slump of money, and HOPE they would be able to recoupe that money thru sales. Yes, the intrest on forums indicates there are alot of intrest, but that doesnt automatically translates into sales.
That said, I think Im not the only one that would purchase new versions of AOS 3.x, and Im not against closed source by default (then again, im not a hardware/software developer, just a "end user")
Since there are none beyond 3.9, many of us install the Boing Bag patches.

And again, I got a feeling that a fair share will stick to AOS on their Vampires, regardless of Apollo-Teams choice, whatever it may be.

[guest11527]

Only short question back... would you base your whole business model and 7 years of work on Hyperion except they would give you really free and independent access so you are not dependant on the financial, legal situation at Hyperion or decisions done there.

I would look at the market and then make my decision based on the options I have, and I would negotiate with Hyperion to get an access to the sources (P96 & AmigaOs) even in case they go bankrupt. Actually, this is all possible and such a clause could have been added to the contracts.

I'm not sure what you mean by "free and independent". They are the license holders of AmigaOs, so all you can get is a license. That's not "free and independent" in my understanding. I neither see why that is necessary for Vampire in first place.

The vampire should be developed such that it runs under an unmodified AmigaOs and P96. This being said, there is of course the opportunity to add hooks to profit from the extra features it has.

I understand that you are legal bound to Hyperion but then admit that and do not all the time claim that you are only talking in the interests of the community.

No, and that's exactly wrong. I *am not* legally bound to Hyperion in any way. We don't have a contract, I never signed an NDA with Hyperion either. I'm speaking for myself, sole and only.

I only see them as only option when it comes to further development of AmigaOs.

It starts to nerve. Also you would have one of the few candidates doing the adaptions and certainly not without asking for "meals" like you call it. Would have been interesting to hear how big these "meals" would have been.

"meals"? Huh? I don't understand.

I have named a number of reasons why the decision was pro Aros. There is also the interview with Gunnar where he explained the project and also talked about Aros. The decisions are rational and result of the negotiations he had, what was requested and offered. Simply as that. Be adult and accept it even if you do not like it. I would not have flooded the threads with moanings when decision would have been pro 3.X

Again, this was not the question here. Look again above. The question is: "Does it make any sense to offer an updated AmigaOs?".

My question in response to that was "Is there enough interest in the community?"

And my observation is: "There has been so much uproar against closed source development that I don't see this makes sense, and that the decision of the vampire against AmigaOs and for AROS sends a clear signal, so I don't bother to waste my time with it".

Do you or don't you agree with that?

[kolla]

Whenever I mention "closed source commercial software" in this forum, I get an uproar as if this would be something morally wrong, undesired.

I have no moral issues, I just find it extremely cumbersome and impractical, as has been proven over and over again, and is the reason why we even have this long tedious discussion. The one screaming about moral all the time is ... you.

Unfortunately, "closed source commerical software" is the only option for AmigaOs, due to the contracts of Hyperion with Amiga, Inc, and Hyperion is the only option as far as advancing the classic Os is.

Exactly, extremely cumbersome and impractical. The OS has been pretty much dead exactly because "the owner" wanted it dead, they have even paid large sums of money to keep it dead. However, nature has a tendency to find its ways, the sources are leaked and people all over are making use of those sources.

Yes, Cloanto has a license for 3.1, but no license to extend upon it - at least none that withstood an investigation under a court. Hyperion did that. Does that mean that I trust them? No. Does that mean that they are the ideal business partner? No. Yet, only option, bad luck.

So what is OS3.X that Cloanto is selling, if not an extension on OS3.1?

So, what can we do?

We can do what people have always been doing, whatever the heck we want, with whatever the heck we can get our hands on. Abstract concepts like copyrights, patents and intellectual property were put in place for the benefit of the society. When these concepts are used against the benefit of the society, to keep knowledge and information hostage for no good reason, most people feel that there are no moral reason to adhere to them. I know this is not how you see it, or how you like it to be, but it is still true for a vast majority of people, not just in Amiga community, but in general.

I believe the community made a decision, or at least Gunnar made a decision for the community.

He made a decision for himself, not for the community as large. It's not as if every Amiga user around will get an apollo core, many are not at all interested, and the hardware doesn't exist for most users. I have two A600 systems that do not have Vampire2. Many are happy with Vampire1, and TG68 will improve too.

The signal is quite clear "Avoid AmigaOs classic, go AROS, ditch Hyperion.". Why? Because the unwillingness to pay for the closed source licenses that go with the closed source development model. And, that in the end, pay development hours. Unfortunately, that's what the legal situation is with AmigaOs classic, and there are no means to fix it.

They were not unwilling to pay for closed source license, or they would not have bothered asking for a license. It was the offer from Hyperion that was unreasonable, it would be a major economical gamble to accept Hyperion's offer. The apollo team is not a company, these are people doing things in their spare time, what you call "unwillingness" is merely "being sensible" - good on them! However, it makes the apollo core even less attractive, but hey... that is exactly what the owner of OS3.x want.

Then, so might it be. Everybody should know what the decision is, and everybody should be aware of the consequences, good or bad. For me it means that the history of AmigaOs stops right at this point.

So long and thanks for all the fish. Now take a vacation

[kolla]

And again, I got a feeling that a fair share will stick to AOS on their Vampires, regardless of Apollo-Teams choice, whatever it may be.

By "breaking the law"? Gasp! You pirates you!

[guest11527]

By "breaking the law"? Gasp! You pirates you!

For you, it seems like a joke, but I consider this really a considerable problem.

Essentially, it means that despite the lack of proper licensing, a group (majority? minority?) of vampire users will use the P96 rtg driver on P96 and not AROS. This is a commercial use and a breach of the P96 license.

Hence, I believe at this point the Vampire can only be used on top of AROS. This is what I mean by "go all the way OpenSource then", and "Users might not be aware of the consequences".

Again, if this is good or bad is your personal perspective, but I doubt that such users are aware of these implications.

[wawrzon]

But again, until any hardware is shipping in volume it isn't worth the hassle. A large user base opens up options for bounties and such.

according to kipper vampire2 will be in hands of 250 users soon. this is aan accel for rather unpopular model of amiga. this is within few weeks of initial release. in what volumes are hyperion accustomed os4 hardware to ship? just to mention, there is some 600 users on haperion forum, the talk about sam batches was by 25 if i remember right, the new os4 hardware like x5k or tabor were mentioned to be ordered like in 500-1000 quantities and everybody wondered if thera are customers for that much.

[wawrzon]

For you, it seems like a joke, but I consider this really a considerable problem.

Essentially, it means that despite the lack of proper licensing, a group (majority? minority?) of vampire users will use the P96 rtg driver on P96 and not AROS. This is a commercial use and a breach of the P96 license.

Hence, I believe at this point the Vampire can only be used on top of AROS. This is what I mean by "go all the way OpenSource then", and "Users might not be aware of the consequences".

Again, if this is good or bad is your personal perspective, but I doubt that such users are aware of these implications.

and what if vampire/apollo doesnt (need to) ship with any rom? will there still be a problem because hyperiuon has no argument to demand licenses?

[AJCopland]

No-one is saying that the Vampire will only run AROS, or use AROS ROMs!

It's running Workbench 3.1 right now and has a licensed 3.1 ROM included.

The fact that they're investigating AROS and it's replacement ROM is just that an investigation, a test to see if it's a viable idea.

I would prefer it if the damn thing just map-rommed whatever ROM you've got and work without having to patch the ROM but that's the current situation not necessarily always going to be the case.

ThomasRichter you are spreading so much FUD about all of this. They (Apollo) do NOT depend on any OpenSource software or hardware in the current Vampire 2 boards for A600.
They do not have to OpenSource the core or board designs unless they desire doing so, they might be making money from these Vampire boards but you don't seem to mind when companies do that so what is your problem with them doing that? (if they are)

It's weird you argue about paying licenses for things that don't need a license because someone "deserves" money, but after 7 years of hard work by a team developing these accelerators and their hardware/FPGA design you then say that they should have to OpenSource it all for no benefit to them.

You are annoyingly inconsistent in this thread depending on who you're discussing.

So, no AROS is not the only way, and Gunnar is not forcing it on anyone, he's impressed by it but nothing more.
OS 3.1 does run on it, people have shown plenty of videos of it doing just that.
It's not 100% final, even their "Silver" core is still in testing and it's the "Gold" core (all of which will be free updates) that will have most of the bugs fixed. The current release is more like an "alpha" quality build with all features implemented but still with bugs.

All this arguing is doing is wasting a lot of time and typing on the internet.