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Author Topic: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.  (Read 106644 times)

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guest11527

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #254 on: March 01, 2016, 09:56:48 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;805095
The Apollo is a CPU it " depends" on no operating system whatsoever just like an Intel, ARM or any other brand of CPU.
Oh, ok, so you just say that RTG does not depend on AROS? Or the RAM of the vampire of a custom initialization procedure?


Quote from: nicholas;805095
I know your feelings have been hurt and probably your wallet too but you need to get over it.

You can't always get what you want in life. It's not a big deal.
No, that's not quite the point. I want to understand the logic here.

Paying part of the income for closed developers from a closed source project is bad. Not paying open source developers from a closed source project is good.

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Offline TuKoTopic starter

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #255 on: March 01, 2016, 10:05:43 PM »
 

Offline Niding

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Offline wawrzon

Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #257 on: March 01, 2016, 10:34:26 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;805079


Why? Why should Gunnar implement it in first place? Just open source the core, and somebody else will implement it for him.


thomas, is this sarcasm?;) outta the suddden you postulate to open everything and start to playing devils advocate for the open source developers who out of their free will and with their own professional knowledge support gunnar and his core?

first thing is none ever said open source is healing all wounds. in our particular situation as community it is means to work together, contribute and preserve code in which companies may not have interest in. this doesnt neccesarily translate to hardware, even if id prefer it to be open as well, but have you ever seen me saying x1000 should be open sourced? however amiga hardware in fact becomes open thanks to private hacking, reverse engeneering, emulation and fpga projects.

now you also need to be pragmatic and justify expenses against contributions. this isnt even an option with os4 or the entities behind. however taking part in apollo irc i sense it helps a good deal to push apollo and aros forwards independently of each other. calculating interests, there might be some better, more satysgfying, more popular and cheaper future solutions for amiga fans than currently. software and hardware wise. and everybody needs to calculate his interests and investments himself. i do, certainly, as much with apollo, which i dont have btw, as with aros.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 10:36:51 PM by wawrzon »
 

Offline pixie

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #258 on: March 01, 2016, 10:45:44 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;805093
Could you please be serious? Since when does an i5 depend on Linux? It's only a relatively small market compared to intel's overall income, and intel *surely* contributes back to the community. They finance an open source support team, provide open source graphics drivers for their CPUs, and open source support tools for their CPU. So it's a "take and give", and it is for me a fair trade.  Does any of the income from the vampire go back into open source development? Or is its core open source?  I beg your pardon, but I've a bit of a problem with the ethics here.

So AROS guys have no problem in making it work for the x86 platform, but suddenly if a new chip is used on par with amiga, things eventually change... that's odd.


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline majsta

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #259 on: March 01, 2016, 10:58:23 PM »
As a person who worked a lot with TG68 I think that I know a lot about it. Only thing I ll say is that TG68 have nice feature to be able to run at higher speeds and shows some nice results. Too bad that in real life we can consider those results as a fake. Maybe bustest can prove me wrong.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 11:01:33 PM by majsta »
 

Offline mikej

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #260 on: March 01, 2016, 11:07:27 PM »
Quote from: majsta;805108
As a person who worked a lot with TG68 I think that I know a lot about it. Only thing I ll say is that TG68 have nice feature to be able to run at higher speeds and shows some nice results. Too bad that in real life we can consider those results as a fake. Maybe bustest can prove me wrong.


Hi Majsta. Not quite sure I understand what you mean?

Even with the cache logic around the TG68, I don't have any problems (now) getting 28MHz out of it. Executes in single cycle. P&R takes around 3 mins.

Going much faster with the current design on the Spartan FPGA is not going to happen without pipelining it, true.

I'm rebuilding my laptop for some Kintex+ development, I'll give it a run though and see what speed we get.

If Gunnar sends the Apollo code (under NDA obviously) I'll run it through the ASIC toolchain and we can see the predicted performance with TSMC 28nm?
/MikeJ
 

Offline mikej

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #261 on: March 01, 2016, 11:16:49 PM »
Quote from: majsta;805108
Maybe bustest can prove me wrong.


READL is about 29MB/sec - but I've yet to finish the 32 bit changes to TG68 (The CPU data bus is 16 bit, cache is 128 bit).

I expect to get to around 60MB/sec which is comparable to a 68060.
 

Offline majsta

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #262 on: March 01, 2016, 11:25:02 PM »
At the time, 3 years ago I had best result with TG68 and I think that no one were able to beat it yet. Those results regarding bustest are exactly 12X lower than slowest compiled version of Apollo is capable of. In standalone system I m making now according to calculations we will double Apollo performance. Exact reason why I stopped messing with TG68...
 

Offline grond

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #263 on: March 01, 2016, 11:58:26 PM »
Mike, I also have to say that I doubt that the tg68 can reach anywhere  near the speed of the apollo core without rewriting it to become the  apollo core. Perhaps you just haven't realised the speed the apollo  delivers yet. Just look at the different real world programs and  benchmarks out there. What about tg68's adoom fps in 640x480? Riva media  player? mp3 decoding?

I saw the tg68 vhdl about a year ago and  even just judging from the code size it is the bare minimum for making  it execute 68k code. I guess the apollo code is several dozen times  bigger, if not 100s of times. Heck, I bet there are more signal  declarations in apollo than tg68 has lines of code! Gunnar and the  others making the apollo core are professional CPU designers and have  been working on the apollo core for seven years!

Obviously the  tg68 didn't do any pipelining (as you mentioned). Then what about  superscalar code execution? This would mean another order of magnitude  of complexity to add. We already had three times superscalar core  versions. Has any work been done on an FPU for tg68? I don't remember  seeing any code for that (but I only went through the code quickly and,  as it seems, there are several variations of it). As already mentioned  the apollo FPU was implemented a long time ago but needs testing which  is why it's not enabled in the public cores.

Making the buses  wider will sure help throughput of the tg68 but it won't make clocking  the core higher any easier either. Then what about the 64 bit mode and  new instructions (which you are invited to add if you want)? I guess  with all the other tasks required to speed up tg68 this would be of low  interest. But these enhancements will enable the apollo core to run a  whole new range of software while tg68 would still be struggling to  reach 030 or even 040 speeds (which would require a lot of progress  already).

I think the FPGAArcade has its strong points in being a  stand-alone board (of course, this advantage will be rendered moot by  the vampire stand-alone board), in emulating other systems for which no  such thing as the apollo exists and for people exclusively interested in  running legacy code  written for unaccelerated A500s or A1200s and  WHDload stuff similar to the ACA cards. But  it would be a very, very,  very long way for the tg68 core to surpass what actual Amigas could do  in 1994.
 

Offline mikej

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #264 on: March 02, 2016, 08:20:13 AM »
Quote from: majsta;805112
At the time, 3 years ago I had best result with TG68 and I think that no one were able to beat it yet. Those results regarding bustest are exactly 12X lower than slowest compiled version of Apollo is capable of. In standalone system I m making now according to calculations we will double Apollo performance. Exact reason why I stopped messing with TG68...


I guess you had not written a cache ?
/MikeJ
 

Offline mikej

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #265 on: March 02, 2016, 08:27:33 AM »
Quote from: grond;805115

I saw the tg68 vhdl about a year ago and  even just judging from the code size it is the bare minimum for making  it execute 68k code. I guess the apollo code is several dozen times  bigger, if not 100s of times. Heck, I bet there are more signal  declarations in apollo than tg68 has lines of code! Gunnar and the  others making the apollo core are professional CPU designers and have  been working on the apollo core for seven years!


Hi,
I think you miss understand me a little. I am not suggesting the TG68 will out perform the Apollo core, I am saying then if targeted to a more modern FPGA it will get similar performance for little effort.

I too am an ASIC CPU designer b.t.w.

"But it would be a very, very, very long way for the tg68 core to surpass what actual Amigas could do in 1994. "

It already is petty much, and as I said complete system compatibility is more important to me. I'm sure I could run the a software 68K emulator on a 10$ SOC and surpass the performance of the Apollo core without all the effort. If the CPU core is faster, then what is the difference between an FPGA CPU and an emulated on a different CPU, CPU? Especially if the rest of the hardware is still FPGA based?

http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/selection-guides/zynq-ultrascale-plus-product-selection-guide.pdf

Quad core 1.5GHz ARM +16nm FPGA fabric?

/MikeJ
 

Offline grond

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #266 on: March 02, 2016, 09:05:07 AM »
Quote from: mikej;805151
I think you miss understand me a little. I am not suggesting the TG68 will out perform the Apollo core, I am saying then if targeted to a more modern FPGA it will get similar performance for little effort.

This is a hare and tortoise type argument. When you put tg68 in a faster FPGA to narrow the gap to apollo, apollo will already be in that faster FPGA and again far ahead of you.


Quote
"But it would be a very, very, very long way for the tg68 core to surpass what actual Amigas could do in 1994. "

It already is petty much
"Actual Amigas" meant 060 and graphics cards.


Quote
complete system compatibility is more important to me.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. People that want to "smell and feel" an Amiga will rather put an accelerator board into an Amiga. People bored with software emulation running in some window on their desktop computer but do not want to worry about aging hardware, leaking capacitors and so on will consider an FPGAArcade or vampire stand-alone. Compatibility will be a major factor, though, as it's not very likely that software will be written having workarounds specifically for some incompatibilities of these FPGA Amiga reimplementations. Assuming you have enough Amigas to test compatibility, I wonder whether it would make sense to provide you and/or your team with a few vampires so that we could assure that there is no new software that works only on one of the two reimplementations but not on the other.

EDIT: "new software" as in drivers or any other stuff we write for our projects
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 09:08:14 AM by grond »
 

Offline mikej

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #267 on: March 02, 2016, 09:39:59 AM »
"This is a hare and tortoise type argument. When you put tg68 in a faster FPGA to narrow the gap to apollo, apollo will already be in that faster FPGA and again far ahead of you."

The gap will  be narrower. As I said the routing delays become similar to the logic delay. I'll run some tests next week.

"Actual Amigas" meant 060 and graphics cards.

Yup, we have a HD capable graphics card with dedicated blitter, and ~ 060 performance (sans MMU and FPU) already.

Anyhow, best of luck with the roll out.
/MikeJ
 

Offline pixie

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #268 on: March 02, 2016, 10:13:37 AM »


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline grond

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Re: [UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.
« Reply #269 from previous page: March 02, 2016, 01:13:26 PM »
Quote from: mikej;805155
The gap will  be narrower. As I said the routing delays become similar to the logic delay. I'll run some tests next week.

America and Europe are getting closer to each other each year by continental drift... :)

That in itself doesn't mean much. Let us hear about your test results, any progress is good. But right now it doesn't sound like a convincing approach to have a more expensive product which has less processing power than your competition and then trying to solve this by putting in a more expensive component.


Quote
Yup, we have a HD capable graphics card with dedicated blitter, and ~ 060 performance (sans MMU and FPU) already.

That must be a very wide interpretation of "approximately". You have 28 MHz clock, the 060 at least 50 MHz. The 060 does simple instructions in one clock cycle and so do you. But the 060 can do a second simple instruction in the same clock cycle while you can't. The 060 has very good branch prediction and fast branches, you have none. The 060 has 32 bit wide buses, you still need to remove the 16 bit limitation. The 060 has fast caches, you still need to add those.

I estimate that you are currently in the 030 range of performance. If you manage to do the caches, the wider buses and improve the clock rate, you'll be entering 040ish performance. Still a long way to go as the apollo core is twice as fast as an 060 right now and still improving. Let's hear your adoom fps, Riva playback, mp3 decoding and how they are improving while you are making the core faster. For us the adoom fps is a standard test because it is more interesting than just some sysinfo MIPS.

BTW, does the fact that you didn't say anything about the offer to try to maintain compatibility between the apollo core and the fpgaarcade's implementation of AGA and 68k that you are going to consider it?