[UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.

[grond]

For Amiga users only, that is a very small market for doing ASIC production of an oddball CPU.

The apollo core could be interesting for other applications besides Amiga, Atari and other legacy 68k based devices. After all there are still companies producing 68k processors. Perhaps the company willing to invest into an apollo ASIC wouldn't even be aware of its possible use in an Amiga.
 

Are you saying that there are AmigaOne systems around running a FPGA softcore PowerPC?

I don't know because I never was interested in PPC-Amigas. But I'm pretty sure Gunnar mentioned that the same VHDL as the PPC Softcore was available as an ASIC.

However, those other cores have features that appeal to the real world markets

Which features do you think the apollo core is lacking that the others offer? PPC/NIOS code compatibility does not count.

That could happen if the first products would be truly compatible with existing OSes, toolchains and software. Instead it is a core that is not really compatible enough

Why do you think so? MMU again? An MMU may be implemented if there is enough interest.

I have asked around in various other 68k camps (NetBSD, Linux, NeXT, Atari), and the answer is always the same - not compatible enough, cannot be bothered.

And they based their assessment on what source of information?

[dovi]

As an Atari user I am following development of an Apollo core very closely. It is amazing what have been done. But as Kolla said ... without FPU and MMU it is worthless to me. Some ST users would consider it but they are not "power" users and use their ST-s unaccelerated for playing games.

Most "power" Atari users use MiNT as OS which needs at least minimal implementation of MMU.

FireBee allready uses Coldfire CPU which is comparable fast to Apollo core. Regarding MIPS is about 4 time faster and regarding BUS speed and scalability is a lot slower. But as it seems there wont be MMU to apolo core in near future, we are looking for faster Coldfire solutions. They are available but not in our budget range
But we will try to find the agreement with IP-Extreme which is a holder of the Coldfire licences.

As Apollo core is really interesting product for Amiga comunnity I believe as Kolla said, it is a cripled CPU implementation and it will take time to be interesting for other 68k communities (if it wont be only Amiga oriented).

I wish I am wrong and that we would be able to use Apollo core also in our projects as suitable CPU soon ...

[grond]

without FPU and MMU it is worthless to me.

All FPU instructions are implemented and tested but the FPU subsystem (e.g. program flow) needs testing which is postponed right now.

As for the MMU, I already mentioned that Gunnar said that it may happen if there is enough interest. However, this interest would have to manifest itself in the form of money. So go collecting and it may get some priority over SAGA (unless Amiga people outbid you... :roflmao:).

BigGun just confirmed to me that they could do a full 68k MMU that would e.g. allow Debian to run on the apollo core. He said that it would take quite a few week-ends worth of work. So what do you think that would be worth?

it is a cripled CPU implementation

IMHO Coldfire is far more a crippled 68k implementation than apollo...

And don't make Gunnar angry or the price for an MMU will double immediately... :lol:

[guest11527]

As for the MMU, I already mentioned that Gunnar said that it may happen if there is enough interest. However, this interest would have to manifest itself in the form of money. So go collecting and it may get some priority over SAGA (unless Amiga people outbid you... :roflmao:).

That's strange. Now that the vampire depends on open source, wouldn't it be a better or at least more plausible alternative to let open source developers implement it?

Why do you need a MMU? Because you'll need one in big box Amigas with DMA sources that transmit data on memory from one Zorro slot the same Zorro slot. Such transfers are not visible neither snoop-able by the CPU. Or you need to disable caching while DMA is running.

BigGun just confirmed to me that they could do a full 68k MMU that would e.g. allow Debian to run on the apollo core. He said that it would take quite a few week-ends worth of work. So what do you think that would be worth?

Probably the lack of one makes it pretty hard to let the vampire work correctly in some situations that can arise when DMA traffic is running.

IMHO Coldfire is far more a crippled 68k implementation than apollo...

Yes, though crippled in another way. Coldfire does not implement most word and byte-sized instructions, and that is a major show-stopper on the Amiga.

And don't make Gunnar angry or the price for an MMU will double immediately... :lol:

Why? Why should Gunnar implement it in first place? Just open source the core, and somebody else will implement it for him.

[pixie]

That's strange. Now that the vampire depends on open source, wouldn't it be a better or at least more plausible alternative to let open source developers implement it?

Why would this be the case?

[mikej]

Some general comments on the CPU technology. I have had no direct contact with Gunnar, these are my own views.

The T68K opensource CPU we use in FPGAArcade and Mist runs at 28MHz single cycle when using I&D cache (in replay at least). If I was to build this on a Kintex ultrascale+ 16nm device (which are relatively cheap now) I'm pretty sure it would run at the base clock of 114MHz -  which would give it similar performance to the Apollo core for zero effort. I'll try this next week.

With some pipeline efforts which are going on, and new table based designs, 3-4x increase is perhaps possible. An opensource MMU may come at some point. These will likely be licensed under the GPL which would not enable them to be used with a closed source core.

Now - I'm putting on my ASIC manager hat. As a day job I work for a mature startup designing big endian CPUs for telecoms use (!).

I have use of the very expensive Cadence tools used for ASIC layout, and a team of people who can build these things. Even given all this, the numbers don't work out. To fab out a 28nm ASIC the mask costs are horrific.

You could try and find a fab which still made 90nm or even older nodes, and yes these are cheaper, but to be honest a 16nm finfet FPGA will be faster - and cheaper per unit part.

I've sourced IP for ASIC as well. When doing this, you need to be very very sure of your supplier and that you will not run into any GPL or licensing issues down the road. There are several suppliers selling highly tested, ASIC proven 68K class cores on the market already today.

If you want a 1-2GHz big endian CPU, people tend to use QoiIQ (PPC) which is cheap in volume and a complete SOC (memory controller, Ethernet, PCIe etc etc).

I really wish Gunnar well with his project, it's certainly a lot of work, but I don't believe it's going to end up as an ASIC.
/MikeJ

[guest11527]

Why would this be the case?

Why? Don't you see the problem? There are many helping hands in the open source world that now build on the Os the vampire will depend on, and that is needed to create an income for the vampire. I believe it's really more than fair that *under such conditions* to return the project to the community as well. Fully. I cannot be that a closed source project operates on the back of open source developers. It's not a fair trade.

[nicholas]

Why? Don't you see the problem? There are many helping hands in the open source world that now build on the Os the vampire will depend on, and that is needed to create an income for the vampire. I believe it's really more than fair that *under such conditions* to return the project to the community as well. Fully. I cannot be that a closed source project operates on the back of open source developers. It's not a fair trade.

Quick you better email Intel and tell them to GPL the source to their CPU's. After all they depend on Linux.

legal@intel.com

[pixie]

Quick you better email Intel and tell them to GPL the source to their CPU's. After all they depend on Linux.legal@intel.com

That were my thoughts exactly.

[grond]

That's strange. Now that the vampire depends on open source

It doesn't, why should it?

wouldn't it be a better or at least more plausible alternative to let open source developers implement it?

Why? I don't see a logical connection there.

Why do you need a MMU? Because you'll need one in big box Amigas with DMA sources that transmit data on memory from one Zorro slot the same Zorro slot. Such transfers are not visible neither snoop-able by the CPU. Or you need to disable caching while DMA is running.

Yes, you mentioned that before. Looking at the numbers of Amigas sold, there are not really all that many bigbox Amigas out there. So it would be an economical decision whether they would get to enjoy an apollo or not.

Why? Why should Gunnar implement it in first place? Just open source the core, and somebody else will implement it for him.

I have seen the source code and I know VHDL (I happen to be a microchip developer by first profession although I mainly did high-speed transistor level CMOS design and less synthesised VHDL design). I don't think anybody could pick up development on that giant project easily.

The T68K opensource CPU we use in FPGAArcade and Mist runs at 28MHz single cycle when using I&D cache (in replay at least). If I was to build this on a Kintex ultrascale+ 16nm device (which are relatively cheap now) I'm pretty sure it would run at the base clock of 114MHz -  which would give it similar performance to the Apollo core for zero effort. I'll try this next week.

It's about performance per USD or %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364;. Gunnar mentioned that he has some Stratix boards available. So what performance could we expect from them? It doesn't really matter as it would be pointless to put a 10,000 USD FPGA on an Amiga accelerator. How much do FPGAArcade and Mist cost and how does their 68k performance compare to the 150%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364; vampire?

But let us hear about your results.

EDIT: btw, are you interested in implementing the 64 bit mode in your enhanced tg68 (or SAGA features)?

These will likely be licensed under the GPL which would not enable them to be used with a closed source core.

Aren't you using GPL'ed stuff and thus have to open-source your modifications anyway?

I really wish Gunnar well with his project, it's certainly a lot of work, but I don't believe it's going to end up as an ASIC.

It's not very likely, yes. That doesn't mean that this possibility should be killed from the start by open-sourcing the project.

[TuKo]

The T68K opensource CPU we use in FPGAArcade and Mist runs at 28MHz single cycle when using I&D cache (in replay at least). If I was to build this on a Kintex ultrascale+ 16nm device (which are relatively cheap now) I'm pretty sure it would run at the base clock of 114MHz -  which would give it similar performance to the Apollo core for zero effort. I'll try this next week.

Mike, Mist and Vampire use the same Cyclone 3 FPGA. Mist runs at 28MHz on it when Apollo runs at 100MHz. Running Apollo on Kintex would probably lead to something in the 800MHz range.

[Terminills]

I cannot be that a closed source project operates on the back of open source developers. It's not a fair trade.

You are correct... Therefore AOS4 should be opensourced and so should AOS 3.5 and 3.9.

[guest11527]

Quick you better email Intel and tell them to GPL the source to their CPU's. After all they depend on Linux.

Could you please be serious? Since when does an i5 depend on Linux? It's only a relatively small market compared to intel's overall income, and intel *surely* contributes back to the community. They finance an open source support team, provide open source graphics drivers for their CPUs, and open source support tools for their CPU. So it's a "take and give", and it is for me a fair trade.  Does any of the income from the vampire go back into open source development? Or is its core open source?  I beg your pardon, but I've a bit of a problem with the ethics here.

[mikej]

It's about performance per USD or €. Gunnar mentioned that he has some Stratix boards available. So what performance could we expect from them? It doesn't really matter as it would be pointless to put a 10,000 USD FPGA on an Amiga accelerator. How much do FPGAArcade and Mist cost and how does their 68k performance compare to the 150€ vampire?

But let us hear about your results.

Aren't you using GPL'ed stuff and thus have to open-source your modifications anyway?

It's not very likely, yes. That doesn't mean that this possibility should be killed from the start by open-sourcing the project.

Grond - good comments on the RTG earlier by the way, nice to see a reasoned argument for a change.

FPGAArcade Replay board is 199Euro+tax. Currently synthetic performance (benchmarks) is about 1/6th, but we should get to 1/4 to 1/3 of the Apollo core. We need to change to a pipelined architecture to increase performance further. I've had such a core going for years, but it's been easier to debug the T68K so far. System performance is quite speedy - the board has fast hard disk, blitter for RTG etc so it feels faster than the numbers would suggest.

Small modern FPGAs are quite cheap, we are talking more in the 50USD range than 10K.

I am not a fan of the GPL license for hardware - my stuff is usually licensed under a "do what you like style" - and yes it's open. As I am using the T68K core which is GPL, I release any modifications to that immediately (svn.fpgaarcde.com) and I must release the rest of the design - although not necessarily under the same license. The Amiga core is partially released now (I've send files to the Mist team), I'm awaiting some advice on modifying my usual license to prevent use in completely closed source designs.

I have no problem with Gunnar not open-sourcing his code, and I get extremely irritated by people demanding I open source everything as "we have a right to see it" - go write your own.

"Mist and Vampire use the same Cyclone 3 FPGA. Mist runs at 28MHz on it when Apollo runs at 100MHz. Running Apollo on Kintex would probably lead to something in the 800MHz range"

It doesn't quite work like that. Apollo has been pipelined but those benefits do not really carry through to smaller geoms - you run into routing delays etc. I would guess 200-300MHz absolute max.

Even with 28nm ASIC you have to work a bit to get much above 500MHz.
/MikeJ

[nicholas]

Could you please be serious? Since when does an i5 depend on Linux? It's only a relatively small market compared to intel's overall income, and intel *surely* contributes back to the community. They finance an open source support team, provide open source graphics drivers for their CPUs, and open source support tools for their CPU. So it's a "take and give", and it is for me a fair trade.  Does any of the income from the vampire go back into open source development? Or is its core open source?  I beg your pardon, but I've a bit of a problem with the ethics here.

The Apollo is a CPU it " depends" on no operating system whatsoever just like an Intel, ARM or any other brand of CPU.

I know your feelings have been hurt and probably your wallet too but you need to get over it.

You can't always get what you want in life. It's not a big deal.

[guest11527]

The Apollo is a CPU it " depends" on no operating system whatsoever just like an Intel, ARM or any other brand of CPU.

Oh, ok, so you just say that RTG does not depend on AROS? Or the RAM of the vampire of a custom initialization procedure?

I know your feelings have been hurt and probably your wallet too but you need to get over it.

You can't always get what you want in life. It's not a big deal.

No, that's not quite the point. I want to understand the logic here.

Paying part of the income for closed developers from a closed source project is bad. Not paying open source developers from a closed source project is good.

I'm sorry. You lost me.