[UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.

[OlafS3]

True, but the problem is the survival of AOS4 depends on the growth of its userbase, which primarily comes from the pool of classic users.  With significant growth and advancements on the classic side to keep users interested the move to a NG platfrom is not nearly as enticing.

People almost forgot it... Amiga world is a market too... very small but a market. If f.e. 4.X covers needs most users do not have then they do not buy it. Simple as that. Vampire or other projects do not change that or do you think people will buy X5000s because of desperation?

[Kremlar]

People almost forgot it... Amiga world is a market too... very small but a market. If f.e. 4.X covers needs most users do not have then they do not buy it. Simple as that. Vampire or other projects do not change that or do you think people will buy X5000s because of desperation?

I don't think people buy NG Amigas out of "needs".  I think they buy out of curiosity and entertainment, and boredom with their existing product.  They like their Amigas, the current product is stagnant, so they look for the next evolution.  Some feel that's AmigaOS 4.x, some feel it's MorphOS, some feel it's AROS, and I think most have not bought into any of the above.

I believe forward-thinking activity on the classic front will keep classic users more entertained with their existing platform.

I thought about an X1000 when it was announced.  I exchanged emails with Trevor about beta testing, but when I saw the price I backed off.  Not because I can't afford it, but because I couldn't justify it and I have not regretted my decision.  Not necessarily because of the money, but because of where the platform has gone (really nowhere).  Even today, playing with classic systems is more entertaining to me than NG.

Is there any doubt that Natami would have easily outsold the X1000?  Even if priced at $1000?  I think it would have outsold it tenfold.

[Aegis]

People almost forgot it... Amiga world is a market too... very small but a market. If f.e. 4.X covers needs most users do not have then they do not buy it. Simple as that. Vampire or other projects do not change that or do you think people will buy X5000s because of desperation?

There's been a lot of obstacles to OS4 adoption but the most damaging has been a lack of reasonably priced (and specced) hardware.

I bought 4.1 FE to use with WinUAE/Amiga Forever and I've been enjoying using it under emulation - if there was some decent hardware to run it on in the 200 euro range then that's what I'd be doing.

[OlafS3]

I don't think people buy NG Amigas out of "needs".  I think they buy out of curiosity and entertainment, and boredom with their existing product.  They like their Amigas, the current product is stagnant, so they look for the next evolution.  Some feel that's AmigaOS 4.x, some feel it's MorphOS, some feel it's AROS, and I think most have not bought into any of the above.

I believe forward-thinking activity on the classic front will keep classic users more entertained with their existing platform.

I thought about an X1000 when it was announced.  I exchanged emails with Trevor about beta testing, but when I saw the price I backed off.  Not because I can't afford it, but because I couldn't justify it and I have not regretted my decision.  Not necessarily because of the money, but because of where the platform has gone (really nowhere).  Even today, playing with classic systems is more entertaining to me than NG.

Is there any doubt that Natami would have easily outsold the X1000?  Even if priced at $1000?  I think it would have outsold it tenfold.

need is also just using something for hobby like people collecting certain things or using oldtimers in spare time. Need means people want something. For many obviously the NG route never was interesting, they would never buy used macs or expensive PPC hardware even if their existing hardware would break. More propably they would use UAE or drop out at all. My personal view. So I do not think that Vampire harms PPC sales.

[Kremlar]

need is also just using something for hobby like people collecting certain things or using oldtimers in spare time. Need means people want something. For many obviously the NG route never was interesting, they would never buy used macs or expensive PPC hardware even if their existing hardware would break. More propably they would use UAE or drop out at all. My personal view. So I do not think that Vampire harms PPC sales.

Need is not want, but that is not the point.  I would say that I "need" a computer that does email and web browsing well - that's why I have a PC.  I "want" to have an Amiga, which is why I own my Amiga related hardware.

Even Trevor/AmigaKit/Hyperion admit to survive they need to bring in more users, and the most likely potential new users (by far) are existing classic users.  If things progress with FPGA, and especially if AROS gets some steam behind it, I believe it will absolutely hurt PPC sales.

I don't believe the existing user base can sustain the platform.  How many people bought X1000s?  How many of those will upgrade to X5000s?  I believe X5000 sales will be considerably smaller than X1000 sales.

Look at how many users complained that they had to pay for AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition - and it was cheap.  Are these same users going to keep paying to sustain the platform?

We will see!

[Niding]

Some people complain about anything. AOS 4.1 FE is dirt cheap.

NG hardware is a whole different ballgame.

As for Vampire fragmenting the community even more;

I think it will have the opposite effect. In the past a "few" had 68060s and more than 32 megs of ram.
Now "everybody" will have 060++ level performance and atleast 2+128 megs of ram.
That will make releasing software even easier, since developers know there are 100s of people out there that can handle quite demanding software.

Take Backbone games. "Requires" 030 to be playable. In the future developers using that rather old gamecreator dont have to worry about speed atleast.
Internet access is faster too. I noticed comments about SERIOUS download speed increases VS old hardware (Vampire vs 060), when downloading to RAM.

Basically; more streamlined hardware which makes it easier for developers to produce more demanding software.
Additionally, people that had gone more or less inactive with their classic gear decides to dust off their old hardware since it got more "modern" performance=more activity.

[OlafS3]

Need is not want, but that is not the point.  I would say that I "need" a computer that does email and web browsing well - that's why I have a PC.  I "want" to have an Amiga, which is why I own my Amiga related hardware.

Even Trevor/AmigaKit/Hyperion admit to survive they need to bring in more users, and the most likely potential new users (by far) are existing classic users.  If things progress with FPGA, and especially if AROS gets some steam behind it, I believe it will absolutely hurt PPC sales.

I don't believe the existing user base can sustain the platform.  How many people bought X1000s?  How many of those will upgrade to X5000s?  I believe X5000 sales will be considerably smaller than X1000 sales.

Look at how many users complained that they had to pay for AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition - and it was cheap.  Are these same users going to keep paying to sustain the platform?

We will see!

Amiga is "want". For "need" you need decent new software, something people really want to have, perhaps even unique. That is much more than recompiled slightly updated old software. Difficult to get there.

[OlafS3]

@Niding

I do not think Vampire is fragmenting the platform very much

when you want to sell you want to cover as much as possible you will use 68020 and use AGA/ECS and/or the OS (3.X or Aros 68k)

there might be some software that will use new apollo commands for more speed (both games and applications) that will only run on Vampire

it is decision of developers

[Aegis]

I think it will have the opposite effect. In the past a "few" had 68060s and more than 32 megs of ram.
Now "everybody" will have 060++ level performance and atleast 2+128 megs of ram.
That will make releasing software even easier, since developers know there are 100s of people out there that can handle quite demanding software.

I agree with you in principle however, 'Super AGA' is whatever the Vampire devs want it to be - there's been discussions about implementing additional coppers or enhanced blitters and that's great providing these architectural changes can trickle down to UAE (assuming the devs are even interested in supporting them) - if not then Vampire-optimised software will only ever run on a Vampire.

Same deal with Xena really (but that hasn't really been used for anything).

[Kremlar]

Amiga is "want". For "need" you need decent new software, something people really want to have, perhaps even unique. That is much more than recompiled slightly updated old software. Difficult to get there.

I agree.  Usually there's a chicken/egg syndrome, but in this case it seems the new hardware will come before the possibility of new software - and the hardware is cheap enough that I think it will sell lots, especially once they release 500/1200 and standalone versions.  This works because the hardware is beneficial to all users, even before new software.  But if/when new software is written the hardware will be even more beneficial.

In his recent interview Gunnar seemed concerned that people may not have the motivation to write significant new software because the Amiga user base is so small.  This is true, but it didn't stop him from working on this project so you never know!

[Shamron]

I've had Amigas sine 93 with some breaks here and there. In 2010ish, i found acube, but couldn't afford a sam at that time. I found a used sam440ep  on a Norwegian auction site a few years ago and bought it immediately.

I then found a sam460ex, which i also bought about a year ago.

Then i learned about the X1000, but it was expensive. 2500 euro, plus 25%VAT, plus import taxes, plus shipping from UK... It amounted to about 40000 Norwegian kroners (5700$) to get it into my living room, ready to tinker with.

Seeing as i've owned 5 cars for which i've paid 8000, 5500, 5000, 7000 and 13000, this ONE computer for which there are no fully functional browser, Office compatibility, no large, modern game titles (Diablo, wow, command&conquer, etc), i could in NO way justify spending more for that than all my cars combined.

Then a friendly Norwegian offered me a barely used one for around 1300$. So i bought it.

Now that i've owned it a year, i must say i love installing the OS, customizing things (yesterday i got back and forward in browsers working with extra buttons on my mouse with allkeys), i love changing backgrounds, and getting things to work, like mplayer, google drive, printer, etc...

But thats about it.

Don't get me wrong, i love my amigas, including this one, and i will buy an X5000 if the price is more down to earth than the X1000. Sure, i understand that they are made in short supply and development costs, but then you end up just selling to die-hards.

I've show my amigas and advocated for amiga to most my friends, but even the most adventurous ones, wont spend what could cover a 3 week family vacation to Spain for it. :-P

[OlafS3]

I agree with you in principle however, 'Super AGA' is whatever the Vampire devs want it to be - there's been discussions about implementing additional coppers or enhanced blitters and that's great providing these architectural changes can trickle down to UAE (assuming the devs are even interested in supporting them) - if not then Vampire-optimised software will only ever run on a Vampire.

Same deal with Xena really (but that hasn't really been used for anything).

I think RTG is much more important for new software than SAGA. And RTG uses OS calls

[Kremlar]

Now that i've owned it a year, i must say i love installing the OS, customizing things (yesterday i got back and forward in browsers working with extra buttons on my mouse with allkeys), i love changing backgrounds, and getting things to work, like mplayer, google drive, printer, etc...

But thats about it.

The software is different now, but that's what I loved most about my Amiga back in the day as well.  That and some games, and of course showing off the capabilities of the Amiga vs. the PC.

Nowadays there's nothing to show off since, as you said, even the NG hardware is very outdated and the software is just not there.  

So, is it worth the price of an X1000 just to tinker?  For some it is, but not for most and not for me.  And is tinkering that much more fun on the X1000 vs. the classics?  Personally, I enjoy tinkering with classics and FPGA hardware MORE than I would on the X1000.  But I can understand that some users are bored tinkering with their classics.  For me time is short and I haven't spent much time tinkering in decades, so there are worlds left to explore when I do have the time.

But that's what the Vampire provides even today - lots more room to tinker, even for die hard users who may have been previously bored with their classics.

[OlafS3]

The software is different now, but that's what I loved most about my Amiga back in the day as well.  That and some games, and of course showing off the capabilities of the Amiga vs. the PC.

Nowadays there's nothing to show off since, as you said, even the NG hardware is very outdated and the software is just not there.  

So, is it worth the price of an X1000 just to tinker?  For some it is, but not for most and not for me.  And is tinkering that much more fun on the X1000 vs. the classics?  Personally, I enjoy tinkering with classics and FPGA hardware MORE than I would on the X1000.  But I can understand that some users are bored tinkering with their classics.  For me time is short and I haven't spent much time tinkering in decades, so there are worlds left to explore when I have the time.

But that's what the Vampire provides even today - lots more room to tinker on the classics, even for die hard users who may have been previously bored with their classics.

I normally work on Windows... lots of functionality and a huge software base. Perfect for work but also very complicated with registry and so on. Amiga is simplicity, you can easily restore your system. Of course not the professional software but as a hobby it is perfect.

[Aegis]

So, is it worth the price of an X1000 just to tinker?  For some it is, but not for most and not for me.  And is tinkering that much more fun on the X1000 vs. the classics?  Personally, I enjoy tinkering with classics and FPGA hardware MORE than I would on the X1000.

It's an entirely different world on OS4 (even though it looks and behaves somewhat the same as 3.x) - the software (what little of it there is) is much more modern than the classic 68k stuff which is both a good and bad thing.

I've really enjoyed tinkering with OS4/WinUAE and I've even bought a few things from the AmiStore - it's a bittersweet thing - you see the potential but at the same time realise that its time has been and gone and that in its own way it's as much of a relic as the classic Amigas are.

Which is why it doesn't hold much of a value proposition. None of that prevents it from being fun though - the only question is how much is that fun worth to you? For me it's a purchased copy of the 4.1 FE ISO and WinUAE/Amiga Forever - the only other options currently available aren't justifiable (to me).

The Vampire looks like a wonderful platform to run a pimped-out AmiKit on though

I normally work on Windows... lots of functionality and a huge software base. Perfect for work but also very complicated with registry and so on. Amiga is simplicity, you can easily restore your system. Of course not the professional software but as a hobby it is perfect.

Likewise - I have a CD32 stashed away somewhere that I'll happily stick a Vampire in if they ever make one but my day-to-day computing is done on a Windows PC - WinUAE suits all my Amiga needs for the time being until something that offers me an experience that emulation doesn't comes along (at the right price ).

[grond]

Regarding open-sourcing the apollo core, this is not going to happen for a reason which we all should agree with: the possibility of an ASIC made from the apollo core (think 2 GHz apollo instead of 100 MHz...). This will definitely not happen if the core were open-sourced because no investor will ever invest the necessary money into an open-sourced core. This is because

a) any competitor could just do the same killing the ASIC economically

b) the investor would have to fear that the open nature of the source will invite patent trolls who could claim that some part of the source infringes some patent (try proving that from the ASIC alone and you'll understand the difference...)

I'm 100% sure that anyone interested will be allowed (or rather encouraged) to replicate the 64-bit 68k mode and the SAGA extensions that apollo core will bring in their respective projects.