User wants (from "Call for Amiga Developers from A-EON Technology")

[OlafS3]

Ummm - what do you want to tell me with that? Do you want me also to move on?



Of course there are better tools for the job today. And although I like the AmigaOS this is not the reason.

Back in the early ninetees I was fascinated that I could do true 3d CAD on my Amiga 500. I also had an Amiga tool to convert the 3d data of DynaCadd into an executable CNC code that could run on the CAM system at the CAD school I was visiting at the time. It was slow, but it worked.

And all this at a fraction of the costs that I would have had to pay for a comparable x86 based system. Back then e.g. DynaCadd did cost 1,500 DM, while I would have had to pay 15,000 DM for AutoCAD.

Same for the hardware:
I bought my A500 with CBM 1082 monitor and CBM MPS 1500C color matrix printer for 1,200 DM, while a brandnew, naked 386 system (just Hercules monochrome graphics card, no sound) was around 6,000 DM at that time.

Later my decision to stay with the Amiga was simply bexause I had meanwhile collected so much software that it would have costed a fortune to replace all this Amiga productivity software with x86 software.

Furthermore I did not want buy a new PC each time a new Win version came up. Do you remember? Each new Win version required new hardware...

Over the years I had no other choice than getting PCs for the serious work, but always kept my Amigas - hoping, the Amiga situation  would improve again one day.

So the Amiga still is my hobby.

Back in the mid ninetees/early 2000s I engaged with a society for the preservation of the historic Wiehltalbahn (Wiehl valley railway).  

When we had revived the line, I got the task to plan the IT infrastructure and would have loved to use Amigas for the task, but unfortunately back then no Amiga hardware with sufficient power was available.

Had the A1X1k already existed I would have tried to use. The XENA thing seemed to be very promising for this task, but so we ended up with PCs...



Why not?
I paid so much money for all my Amiga stuff - why should I just give/throw it away? It can still serve me as my hobby...



Here we seem to differ. For me it was an unexpensive tool and had to work the way I wanted. A stunning device back then (and in some aspects even today), but nevertheless just a tool. Nothing to found a "religion" on.



And despite that you nevertheless prefer the OCS over RTG? Seriously?



Well, to me it rather seems that the Amiga can only unleash its full potential with all the expansion stuff like RTG, PCI, USB and a decent accelerator...
An Amiga 4000 as it was delivered by C= (just with AGA) was simply not really usable for daily serious work.



As you "did not expand much" I guess you were happy with what these machines offered in their original state, namely their graphics?



What do you mean with "custom"?
"Custom hardware" for me were e.g. my sound digitiser and my prommer. I built both myself - there just were the schematics, the board layouts and and the part lists from an Amiga magazine. All self-made - optical transfer of the board layout to a blank PCB, etching, drilling, populating and soldering the boards. That's "custom made" from my POV.



Well, for me it actually was attractive. Both - performance- and price-wise.
Comparable Amiga parts (e.g. Zorro graphics boards) were much too expensive for what they had to offer. I always wanted to get the max out of my machines - and I only could achieve this by heavily expanding the machines. And obviously I didn't want to spend a fortune for components with Amiga label, while better and cheaper solutions from the PC world were available and could be used in an Amiga with an PCI busboard.



And - did they do so?
No.
Instead they preferred to go belly up by pumping all their money into their overpriced and underpowered x86 line of computers instead of improving the Amiga properly.
B.T.W. - what did you use to "shove it in the faces of your PC-loving friends", once you realised C= didn't develop the things you wanted, but went bust instead?



I also sort of "moved on". But I instead of seling my Amiga stuff I bought my PCs second hand and so could have both. My A4kPPC is still networked with my XP-PC via RDesktop.
Nice setup - you can easily switch between AmigaOS and Windows. If the old IBrowse doesn't display correctly - just switch over to Win and browse the web with IE, Mozilla or Chrome or the like.



Pardon?
Hardware does not have to have an heart, it just has to do for me what I want and how I want it. No heart required so far...



All I care about is that the hardware does for me what I want and how I want it.



You might be right with "inferior PowerPC motherboards" as long as you compare them with x86 PC motherboards.
 
But once you compare it with classic Amiga hardware, your "inferior PowerPC motherboards" are more a "giant leap" forward, me thinks...

Even if you ported AmigaOS to x86, you still would have to make it 64 Bit and SMP, as the harware trend in x86 world goes this way.
So - if you want to make full use of modern x86 hardware with an hypothetical x86-AmigaOS, you would also have to enhance this OS with 64 Bit and SMP.
If PowerPC architecture really will end one day, we can still make the move to x86. But why not advancing the OS on the PPC platform in the meantime?

I mean - the decision for PPC has been made long ago and neither you, nort me, will ever change that. We should be lucky that Trevor invested money in new Amiga capable  hardware and tries his best also to support software development!

One correction you do not buy new hardware to run a new version of Windows but you buy new hardware and get a new version of Windows. I have never bought a new PC because a new version of Windows would require it.

[Dandy]

One correction you do not buy new hardware to run a new version of Windows but you buy new hardware and get a new version of Windows. I have never bought a new PC because a new version of Windows would require it.

When I wrote that I was thinking of the time when people were running "Windows for 286" on their 80286 machines. And then had to buy 386 harware when they wanted to upgrade to Win 3.1. You could install the new Windows version, but in order to use all its advantages you had to add more RAM than it was possible on the old machines.

And I remember that there was something with "real mode" and "protected mode" - one of these modes was supported in the newer Win version, but to take advantage of it you needed new hw as well.
IIRC, this went on until the Pentium/WinXP era...

[OlafS3]

When I wrote that I was thinking of the time when people were running "Windows for 286" on their 80286 machines. And then had to buy 386 harware when they wanted to upgrade to Win 3.1. You could install the new Windows version, but in order to use all its advantages you had to add more RAM than it was possible on the old machines.

And I remember that there was something with "real mode" and "protected mode" - one of these modes was supported in the newer Win version, but to take advantage of it you needed new hw as well.
IIRC, this went on until the Pentium/WinXP era...

Yes me too but that is long today... today companies replace hardware every couple of years and private persons buy new hardware because they want to play the newest ego shooter. Windows-Versions are the last reason to buy new hardware. The only exception was recently when XP support was dropped and many companies replaced old hardware with new one and preinstalled Windows 7 (mostly).

[Iggy]

My workbench is something like 800x600 in 256 colors, but never mind that. The point is: None of the "Amiga" systems is suitable for productive work anyhow. It's a system for retrocomputing, and the 68K does exactly that. So never mind running a workbench at 640x256 because that's exactly how it is supposed to be. If you want to run productive work, there's a PC.

Right, and you have a good web browser, and applications like blender ported to your system.
Listen, I don't need complete Amiga compatibility (outside of games, the applications don't have much utility).

And you can have your stamp collection, the only use I have for stamps is more practical.
I use them.

When you get to something like Natami, let me know, because it will have added capabilities.
The current run of "a little faster than an A1200"  FPGA systems don't hold much interest in me either.

Its what I can use or create that governs my decision.
And a stock AGA doesn't cut, an enhanced Amiga is to expensive and has a limited market, and an FPGA only offers slight advantages.

Wake me up when legacy has really improved graphics and sound.

[Kremlar]

Ummm - what do you want to tell me with that? Do you want me also to move on?

Clearly you do whatever you want, I was just curious since your use for the Amiga seemed very application driven.

Here we seem to differ. For me it was an unexpensive tool and had to work the way I wanted. A stunning device back then (and in some aspects even today), but nevertheless just a tool. Nothing to found a "religion" on.

Yes, that's true.  Back then you could get so much capability for your money with the Amiga.  Not true anymore!

And despite that you nevertheless prefer the OCS over RTG? Seriously?

It's not that I preferred OCS over RTG, but I preferred the idea of Amiga-specific graphics/sound hardware, especially early on when it was so much more powerful than the competition.  So I guess it was like a religion for me.  Of course I wanted a nice, fast 256+ color workbench at a high resolution, but I wanted it done the "Amiga way" and not just by slapping in a PC graphics card.

As you "did not expand much" I guess you were happy with what these machines offered in their original state, namely their graphics?

I was to an extent, but always wanted more and hoped C= was working on new chips.  Back then I only knew what was published in magazines, the internet was not what it is today, and I had no insider information - just lots of rumors.  It's hard to say for sure, but I believe I left the Amiga scene before RTG became popular.  I don't recall many or any RTG cards being available that made me want to purchase.  I think maybe the OpalVision was announced and seemed interesting but too limited (not really RTG).

What do you mean with "custom"?

I mean the Amiga chipset, graphics & sound, things that were only found in the Amiga and made it stand out from the competition.  "Amiga custom chips".

http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/CategoryList.aspx?mid=377

And - did they do so?
No.
Instead they preferred to go belly up by pumping all their money into their overpriced and underpowered x86 line of computers instead of improving the Amiga properly.

Did they really spend a lot of money on their x86 hardware?  Here in the US it seemed like a very minor part of their business.  I do not see that as a major reason for the fall of C=.

B.T.W. - what did you use to "shove it in the faces of your PC-loving friends", once you realised C= didn't develop the things you wanted, but went bust instead?

Hah!  Nothing unfortunately.    I exited the Amiga scene before C= went out of business because I needed a PC for school and work and could not afford both.  I still remember selling my Amiga 4000 and purchasing a 486DX2/66 with Orchid Fahrenheit 1280 video card.  It was a sad day!

However, a few years prior I got great pleasure showing my PC friends and work buddies the Walker Demo on the Amiga.  It was so amazing at the time!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyMpU0nMuZo

Hardware does not have to have an heart, it just has to do for me what I want and how I want it. No heart required so far...

That's the religion part of things.  Do cars need heart?  If not, tell that to all the Mazda RX-7 fanatics out there who love their Wankel Rotary Engines.  

I mean - the decision for PPC has been made long ago and neither you, nort me, will ever change that. We should be lucky that Trevor invested money in new Amiga capable hardware and tries his best also to support software development!

Agreed.  I am not lucky, because I really have no interest in NG, but for users that do have interest I think it is amazing that development at this level is still occurring.

[matthey]

When you get to something like Natami, let me know, because it will have added capabilities.
The current run of "a little faster than an A1200"  FPGA systems don't hold much interest in me either.

Its what I can use or create that governs my decision.
And a stock AGA doesn't cut, an enhanced Amiga is to expensive and has a limited market, and an FPGA only offers slight advantages.

Wake me up when legacy has really improved graphics and sound.

The FPGA Arcade and Mist are already significantly faster than a stock 1200 in both CPU power and AGA graphics speed even though their focus is extreme compatibility. They only use the TG68 core which gives fast 68030 speeds where the Apollo core has exceeded the 68060 in many benchmarks but requires a little bigger FPGA for maximum performance. AGA performance is several times the pitiful C= AGA performance primarily due to much better memory bandwidths. The FPGA Arcade has (chunky) RTG built in. These retro hardware simulator FPGA devices use generic Amiga simulation and only give a taste of what is possible with a FPGA Amiga.

It's not that I preferred OCS over RTG, but I preferred the idea of Amiga-specific graphics/sound hardware, especially early on when it was so much more powerful than the competition.  So I guess it was like a religion for me.  Of course I wanted a nice, fast 256+ color workbench at a high resolution, but I wanted it done the "Amiga way" and not just by slapping in a PC graphics card.

I would choose integrated standard fast enhanced graphics rather than reverse engineering drivers for PCIe cards. These reverse engineered drivers are often less than optimal and have incomplete support. There is also increased latency going through the PCIe bus.

That's the religion part of things.  Do cars need heart?  If not, tell that to all the Mazda RX-7 fanatics out there who love their Wankel Rotary Engines.  

Cars can invoke human emotions.



I recently had a kid walk up a long driveway to look at my dirty silver 1993 RX-7. He ended up coming back to look at it again when I wasn't there and asked my family if it was for sale. I get crazy emotional reactions like this while some people think it is no more than a Ford Probe .

[Kremlar]

I recently had a kid walk up a long driveway to look at my dirty silver 1993 RX-7. He ended up coming back to look at it again when I wasn't there and asked my family if it was for sale. I get crazy emotional reactions like this while some people think it is no more than a Ford Probe .

Hah!  I had a 94 RX-7 Red Touring about 10 years back.  I live in Massachusetts, purchased it form a seller on Ohio.  I flew down and drove it back home.  Best 11 hour drive of my life!  I miss that car.

My first car love was when I was in high school, the 93 Silver Touring (with no spoiler) that was in the Mazda brochure.

Is your Silver 93 for sale???  

[Dandy]

...
"Could we have everything louder than everything else?"
Ian Gillan

[off topic]
Oh yes - good old Ian.
Too sad that Jon passed away few years ago!
So I will never ever have the chance again to see my favourite band live again in its best lineup (Ritchie Blackmore, Ian Gillan, Jon Lord, Ian Paice and Roger Glover).
But noone can take my memories of their concerts away!

And best of all:
When Ritchie had his first Rainbow gig in Cologne in 1976, he smashed his guitar in the old Deep Purple fashion and threw the parts into the audience. That's where I got the neck of his guitar...

[/off topic]

EDIT:
Maybe you want to add another quotation:
" 'Tradition' is not to preserve the ashes but to pass on the flame!"
(Thomas Morus, 07. 02. 1478 - 06. 07. 1535, London)

[Iggy]

[off topic]
Oh yes - good old Ian.
Too sad that Jon passed away few years ago!
So I will never ever have the chance again to see my favourite band live again in its best lineup (Ritchie Blackmore, Ian Gillan, Jon Lord, Ian Paice and Roger Glover).
But noone can take my memories of their concerts away!

And best of all:
When Ritchie had his first Rainbow gig in Cologne in 1976, he smashed his guitar in the old Deep Purple fashion and threw the parts into the audience. That's where I got the neck of his guitar...

[/off topic]

EDIT:
Maybe you want to add another quotation:
" 'Tradition' is not to preserve the ashes but to pass on the flame!"
(Thomas Morus, 07. 02. 1478 - 06. 07. 1535, London)

That is Great!
I will use it.

And Blackmore's Rainbow?
Funny you mentioned it.
I've been playing a lot of the Dio era stuff lately.
Its an interesting shift for Ritchie.
A band that could still play "Mistreated" but that had a somewhat different sound.
After all, "Lady of the Lake" does NOT sound like a Deep Purple song.

I'm not too keen on the post Blackmore Deep Purple stuff.
They have one of my favorite guitar players, Steve Morse, but his style doesn't mesh well.
Although "Vincent Price" isn't bad.

In honor of Halloween, y'all should check out that one.

And you have the neck of Blackmore's guitar...very cool.

Addendum - The original RX-7 (with its RX-3 underpinnings) was an interesting low priced performance car with a very different engine.
But the RX-8 is SO much better (even if the costs got outrageous).

BTW - Sorry for the off topic posts.

[Kremlar]

But the RX-8 is SO much better (even if the costs got outrageous).

Mehh.... I much preferred my 3rd gen RX-7 twin turbo to the RX-8.  But yeah, clearly superior to the original RX-7.  Original RX-7 has great styling for its time, though, and I think the RX-8 was a bit too friendly looking and bland.

[Iggy]

Mehh.... I much preferred my 3rd gen RX-7 twin turbo to the RX-8.  But yeah, clearly superior to the original RX-7.  Original RX-7 has great styling for its time, though, and I think the RX-8 was a bit too friendly looking and bland.

Oh, I rather like the styling of the RX-8, especially the suicide passenger doors.
But its not meant to fulfill the role of the original RX-7.

And those later model RX-7s had some interesting, if failure prone, hardware like active suspension components.

To be truthful, I rather like the original RX-7 and its predecessor the RX-3.
At one time, I had the demented idea of putting an RX-7 engine and other components into a Mazda GLC (which also shares an RX-3 legacy).

These days, that would be pointless since we have decades of vehicles like the Gti with higher output motors in economy car chassis.
But back then?
It would have been cool to smoke someone who thought they had a performance advantage over you.

Rather like the looks I got from people in '85 when my dull silver Dodge Omni GLH (with all the decals removed) - through my rear view mirror.

Edit - Stop drawing me off topic guys.

" 'Tradition' is not to preserve the ashes but to pass on the flame!" - Thomas Morus, (07. 02. 1478 - 06. 07. 1535, London)

There is a good phrase to summarize the state of affairs in the Amiga community.
So would the 'stamp collectors' stop harping on their use of legacy hardware?

FPGAs, PPCs, or X64. Onward and upward.

[WeiXing3D]

Right, and from a retro point of view that's all that's needed.  If people are happy with a 68020/30/60 when they use their Amigas today they should be ecstatic about something that might exceed the 68060 performance.

I'd rather use my Amiga to play some games, tune my workbench, play with some applications that I never used before - things that I did back in the day.  If I want to browse the web, create a PDF, read email, or work on a spreadsheet there are much better tools for the job.

Back in the 80s/90s the draw to using the Amiga instead of the PC was because it was different and BETTER.  Nowadays it's just different and way WORSE - different is not sufficient to me to replace my PC.

I agree 100% with these remarks of Kemlar. I can save one of each of the systems running classic and NG or Amiga like OS's, and the one I use the most is my FPGA Arcade because it gives me that nostalgic experience that I have always loved, in a system that I know that is not dying from aging, as it's the case with classic hardware. Finding replacement parts for classics i becoming and odyssey, and the prices that they charge for them, can lead you to but multiple PC's instead, and for the same amount of money.  The same is the case with new AmigaOS hardware.

[Kremlar]

and the one I use the most is my FPGA Arcade because it gives me that nostalgic experience that I have always loved, in a system that I know that is not dying from aging, as it's the case with classic hardware

Right! I always thought I'd prefer classic hardware, but man I'm really loving my FPGA Arcade.... it's making me consider the thought of selling at lease some of the other hardware I have, but I'm afraid I may regret it later...

[Dandy]

That is Great!
I will use it.

Fine!
On the occasion of my discussion with Kremlar about expanding or not expanding Amigas I was reminded of this pearl of wisdom and thought it might fit in your collection...

...
And you have the neck of Blackmore's guitar...very cool.

Thank you!


Neck of Ritchie Blackmore's guitar, Rainbow concert Cologne, Sporthalle, 1976



Proof of genuineness...

Addendum - The original RX-7 (with its RX-3 underpinnings) was an interesting low priced performance car with a very different engine.
But the RX-8 is SO much better (even if the costs got outrageous).

BTW - Sorry for the off topic posts.

Not exactly a "low priced performance car", but my favourite car since LeMans 1966 (I was 9 back then):


Just returned from a test drive: Ford GT Modelyear 2005 and I



Ford GT Modelyear 2016 and I on the occasion of its presentation at Ford Development Centre in Cologne Merkenich a few weeks ago

DISCLAIMER:
Sorry - but I don't know why the GT photos are so big when linked here - on my PC all photos have the same size - namely that of the guitar photos...

[Iggy]

Not a problem.
The GT40 and Blackmore's back catalog, both good reasons to remember the late '60's and early '70's fondly.
And the Ford GT?
I think they were just trying to prove that they could still kick Italian butt if they wanted to.

And thanks again for another reminder that technology moves on.
After all, the GT was SO more refined than a road worthy LeMans card would be.

[matthey]

Hah!  I had a 94 RX-7 Red Touring about 10 years back.  I live in Massachusetts, purchased it form a seller on Ohio.  I flew down and drove it back home.  Best 11 hour drive of my life!  I miss that car.

My first car love was when I was in high school, the 93 Silver Touring (with no spoiler) that was in the Mazda brochure.

Is your Silver 93 for sale???  

My RX-7 is a silver base model with R1 front lip, no spoiler in the back and a black Border Racing hood. The pic was a later model Spirit R but it was a good size and a very clean picture.

And those later model RX-7s had some interesting, if failure prone, hardware like active suspension components.

The 3rd gen RX-7 never had "active suspension components". It is a pure driving machine with non-adjustable shocks, linear springs and no traction control. They did all have anti-lock brakes though. Some of the other sports cars of the time like the Mitsubishi GT3000 VR-4 and Toyota Supra were getting higher tech driving aids. The sequential turbo system of the RX-7 was complex and failure prone though. I simplified mine while retaining the sequential turbo operation and haven't had problems. The Wankel engines themselves are short lived under boost but I would never replace the heart, soul and unique feel of the RX-7.

Not exactly a "low priced performance car", but my favourite car since LeMans 1966 (I was 9 back then):

I've never been a big fan of Ford sports cars but the Ford GT(40) is an exception. I like that the Ford GT look is so close to the original but I wish they had brought the price down for the masses even if the performance would have been less. The 3rd gen RX-7 was getting a little expensive for the time as well. My favorite affordable sports car concept today would be something like the Lotus Elise/Exige (a fun lightweight driving machine). There are parallels in my mind with the Amiga and sports cars as well. The original Amiga was a computer for the masses with a great driving experience which put the user in control. The new Amigas are computers for the (elite) classes which few will experience and some of the changes are not improvements.