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Author Topic: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)  (Read 4359 times)

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Offline Rob

Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2015, 11:50:44 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;795857
:laughing:

I wonder if any of us will still be alive when that Prisma Megamix card comes out?  :rofl:


I guess it must be worse knowing all those cards are sat there waiting for a new owners to take them home.

 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2015, 12:01:59 AM »
Quote from: Rob;795929
I guess it must be worse knowing all those cards are sat there waiting for a new owners to take them home.


Okay, can't complain about that!  :D  But when will they be in the hands of distributors?
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline Cosmos AmigaTopic starter

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Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2015, 06:03:34 AM »
Quote from: matthey;795910
No, dividing in to secretive camps with fortifications protecting the antiquated Amiga technology from each other seems to be the Amiga way. This doesn't mean I agree with Cosmo's attitude even though I understand his feeling of the Amiga being held hostage. Honey catches more flies than vinegar. Hopefully, eventually. Amiga teaches us patience. We must meditate and focus on what was good about the Amiga. Where did my fricking Guru Meditation Joyboard go now?

You are too gentle. We are waiting since too many time... They mock us...

Now I want new batch of BlizzardPPC, CyberStormPPC, BVision and CyberVisionPPC at LOW prices to introduce a new virtuous circle :

Very low prices hardware => big selling => new softwares => new users or old users come back : the machine lives...


BlizzardPPC : 150 euros maximum
CyberStormPPC : 220 euros maximum
BVision : 90 euros maximum
CyberVisionPPC : 90 euros maximum

If 68060 not available, a 68040@40 on socket is fine (better than nothing) with two JMPs to change to 060 if users find it...

Offline QuikSanz

Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2015, 06:23:21 AM »
Oh for gods sake! Make a Fast FPGA card with sata, fast ram and lots of it with dma and a graphics card pci slot!
 

Offline Cosmos AmigaTopic starter

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Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2015, 06:45:37 AM »
Quote from: QuikSanz;795936
Oh for gods sake! Make a Fast FPGA card with sata, fast ram and lots of it with dma and a graphics card pci slot!

Later. We are in the hurry now. New cards take too much time and too much money to develop...


Quote from: Cosmos;795935
BlizzardPPC : 150 euros maximum
CyberStormPPC : 220 euros maximum
BVision : 90 euros maximum
CyberVisionPPC : 90 euros maximum

Of course NOT selling by Amigakit : they will sell at insane prices... (==> http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=787964&postcount=23)

Offline wawrzon

Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2015, 09:52:45 AM »
if you are interested in warpos (im not) then strim is developing an open source compatible solution based on mediator and sonnet card. it is working already to certain extent and rather fast. csppc and bppc will not happen and it is not amigakit fault. the rights and documentation ist with a former amiga repair company in germany, probably lost. anyway they could not be produced again because of the lack of parts and because of rohs as far as it gas been discussed on a1k.
 

Offline Blizz1220

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Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2015, 10:05:32 AM »
Even a clone of old turbo cards that had socket and sockets for
standard (was it EDO?) memory would be fine.

It would be easier to get that 040s from old Macs or accelerators
for them but then it would solve all need for most lucrative market
so it's kinda problematic and there is a good explanation but it's
kinda ungrateful to be so demanding and ACA1220 is all you need
anyway and people should be lucky that those are still in production.
 

Offline vxm

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Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2015, 04:30:23 PM »
Quote from: matthey;795910
No, dividing in to secretive camps with fortifications protecting the antiquated Amiga technology from each other seems to be the Amiga way. This doesn't mean I agree with Cosmo's attitude even though I understand his feeling of the Amiga being held hostage. Honey catches more flies than vinegar. Hopefully, eventually. Amiga teaches us patience. We must meditate and focus on what was good about the Amiga. Where did my fricking Guru Meditation Joyboard go now?

We can not blame the current holders of the Amiga to not want to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors (simultaneously produce and sell two competing architectures). We can not blame them for having abandoned the 68k platform. Business is business. But we could blame them for not facilitating the further development by one third partie.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2015, 07:48:28 PM »
Quote from: Cosmos;795938
Later. We are in the hurry now. New cards take too much time and too much money to develop...

Not necessarily. The old cards could have legal problems attached which can take much longer than development time as we know from the C= bankruptcy years. Some chips would likely not be available anymore so the board layout would have to be changed and replacement chips or FPGAs used. The Phase 5 accelerator boards are likely expensive boards to produce in low quantities and more expensive yet on a tight schedule. Using a modern FPGA makes a lot of sense as it could simplify the design and cost. An FPGA with memory controller for modern memory (cheaper and more reliable to have soldered on the card) and high speed transceivers (SerDes) for SATA/PCIe is still affordable and reduces chip counts. Ethernet and HDMI/DVI can be directly controlled from the FPGA. The FPGA needs a little support for flash, debugging, etc. and it may be easier to leave USB as a custom chip but I hope you can see that the chip count and board layout size, complexity and cost could be significantly reduced. Development could be greatly increased with a little investment. Majsta is affordable because of the country he lives in although the corruption there has already slowed him down at times (mail bribes). Thomas Hirsch has a working work of art in the Natami which is wasting away but could be rejuvenated with investment. IMO, these would be better investments than trying to bring back the P5 hardware. I'm not sure production would be feasible even if the P5 designs were open sourced.

Quote from: wawrzon;795941
if you are interested in warpos (im not) then strim is developing an open source compatible solution based on mediator and sonnet card. it is working already to certain extent and rather fast. csppc and bppc will not happen and it is not amigakit fault. the rights and documentation ist with a former amiga repair company in germany, probably lost. anyway they could not be produced again because of the lack of parts and because of rohs as far as it gas been discussed on a1k.

The Sonnet is no longer in production (partially because PPC is dying), the classic Amiga needs a bottle-necked PCI solution for PCI and it is not optimum to go through PCI for all I/O. At least faster PPC processors are available in the Sonnet but I don't like the economics of the project and Elbox decided likewise.

Quote from: Blizz1220;795942
It would be easier to get that 040s from old Macs or accelerators
for them but then it would solve all need for most lucrative market
so it's kinda problematic and there is a good explanation but it's
kinda ungrateful to be so demanding and ACA1220 is all you need
anyway and people should be lucky that those are still in production.

There is currently no shortage of affordable full 68060s except the rev 6 68060 which can be overclocked to 100MHz. The price and availability may change if thousands of the FPGA Arcade 68060 expansion are sold. An FPGA accelerator or board probably makes more sense. Even the FPGA Arcade and Mist FPGA performance should be able to exceed a 68040 with less heat. A larger and better performance FPGA (but still affordable) and/or a better designed FPGA core will probably be able to exceed 68060 performance.

Quote from: vxm;795958
We can not blame the current holders of the Amiga to not want to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors (simultaneously produce and sell two competing architectures).

I'm not so sure that selling both the Amiga and a PC were a mistake, especially early on. The C= PC was sold into professional and business markets where Amiga didn't have the software. This allowed C= to offer a wider spectrum of products. PCs had good margins before competition saturated the market. The Carly Fiorina purchase of Compaq by HP has been recently criticized by some people also. Notice that she defended her performance at HP by giving the top line revenue and cash flow gains while she was in charge. I want to hear about the bottom line when buying a lower margin business. It's still debatable if the deal was bad as their were likely some advantages from synergies and reduced competition. I think it would be an exaggeration to call the buy of Compaq a disaster but HP probably would have been better off focusing on their higher margin printers.

Quote from: vxm;795958
We can not blame them for having abandoned the 68k platform. Business is business. But we could blame them for not facilitating the further development by one third partie.

There was no way forward for the 68k and the PPC was promising and big endian. Now, the PPC route is not only less compatible but very expensive and it is possible to go back to the 68k because of modern FPGA technology. The big questions:

Is Amiga performance or hardware cost more important?

performance->PPC, hardware cost->68k

Is Amiga performance or compatibility more important?

performance->PPC, compatibility->68k

I believe PPC CPU performance/price ratio has reached its peak and will start declining in the next 10 years (PPC CPU costs will increase and availability will decline because of supply and demand). Developing the 68k could be done cheaply with relatively low performance (68040-68060 performance level) but performance would scale nicely to more powerful FPGAs (constantly getting cheaper and availability is excellent) with custom ASICs as an option if sales grew high enough to support them. The 68k option is more scalable and flexible where a business could have complete control of their destiny and products while the PPC is controlled by market forces with strong head winds against it. The other option would be to port the AmigaOS to ARM or x86_64 but this would take a long time, the Amiga loses its uniqueness (valuable!) and compatibility. AROS has so far failed to create a market large enough to attract major software developers on these other processors after many years.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 08:12:38 PM by matthey »
 

Offline Cosmos AmigaTopic starter

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Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2015, 06:02:55 AM »
@Matthey

I'm talking about survival : we cannot wait 1 or 2 years more to have ready and working new 68k hardware... I think it's easy to understand.

I'm only a 68k hacker, I don't have the skill & knowledge already to build a new 060 or Fpga card from scratch...

I don't believe in PPC, and Amigakit screwed the X1000 with superhigh prices (2 975 euros !!!! Ouch !!) to make impossible a virtuous circle. And they will do same mistake for the X5000 soon...
 

The only chance is quickly a new batch of the last boards from Phase5/DCE at VERY LOW PRICES : sorry, I see only this very last hope for us...



:(

guest11527

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Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2015, 09:17:31 AM »
Quote from: matthey;795961
I believe PPC CPU performance/price ratio has reached its peak and will start declining in the next 10 years (PPC CPU costs will increase and availability will decline because of supply and demand). Developing the 68k could be done cheaply with relatively low performance (68040-68060 performance level) but performance would scale nicely to more powerful FPGAs (constantly getting cheaper and availability is excellent) with custom ASICs as an option if sales grew high enough to support them. The 68k option is more scalable and flexible where a business could have complete control of their destiny and products while the PPC is controlled by market forces with strong head winds against it. The other option would be to port the AmigaOS to ARM or x86_64 but this would take a long time, the Amiga loses its uniqueness (valuable!) and compatibility. AROS has so far failed to create a market large enough to attract major software developers on these other processors after many years.

Thanks for this excellent analysis, matthey. Needless to say, I agree with it. I would probably not go for PPC anymore anytime and would suggest an FPGA solution that seems very promising. At this time, it's probably a bit too early for a mass market (the power/price ratio is probably still not good enough, but this will change by itself), but it's the right time to trigger an initial development.
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2015, 09:27:26 AM »
Quote from: matthey;795961
Thomas Hirsch has a working work of art in the Natami which is wasting away but could be rejuvenated with investment.

Make a gosh-darned Kickstarter for it.  I'd throw in a couple thousand bucks, I'm sure others would as well.  I thought Natami died due to in-fighting and petty squabbles, however?  Just like all (most) good Amiga projects.  *sigh*  :(

Dreaming about cheap CSPPC's and whatnot is pointless, for all the aforementioned reasons.  Pricing to buy the board designs, ROHS, etc., etc.
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2015, 11:12:26 AM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;795977
Make a gosh-darned Kickstarter for it.  I'd throw in a couple thousand bucks, I'm sure others would as well.  I thought Natami died due to in-fighting and petty squabbles, however?  Just like all (most) good Amiga projects.  *sigh*  :(

Dreaming about cheap CSPPC's and whatnot is pointless, for all the aforementioned reasons.  Pricing to buy the board designs, ROHS, etc., etc.

No Natami was (in opposite to public impression) a one-man project by Thomas Hirsch, he could have published it in recent years but obviously did not manage to. I think I heared there were RAM-timing problems but do not know the "hardware stuff" too deep :). In short... reason certainly was not because of natami forum discussions or other people.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2015, 02:11:04 PM »
for those who, like me, do not look out for ppc much, here is an open source 030 accelerator project, that can be later used to attach fpga to 030 cpu bus.
https://github.com/Sakura-IT/decelerator4030
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2015, 06:36:28 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;795978
No Natami was (in opposite to public impression) a one-man project by Thomas Hirsch, he could have published it in recent years but obviously did not manage to. I think I heared there were RAM-timing problems but do not know the "hardware stuff" too deep :). In short... reason certainly was not because of natami forum discussions or other people.

Thanks for the clarification!  I'm sure I will forget and post erroneous information again, maybe I should just bookmark this comment, lol.  :D

Still disappointed about how that all played out.  I have very little interest in MiniMig, MiST, FPGA Arcade, and whatever all the other gazillion Amiga clones and derivatives are.  But I would've bought the heck out of Natami.  :( :(
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline vxm

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Re: Looking for W3D_Picasso96MU.library v4.2 (17 Feb 2002)
« Reply #29 from previous page: September 20, 2015, 07:27:15 PM »
Quote from: matthey;795961
I'm not so sure that selling both the Amiga and a PC were a mistake
It was not just to sell two competing platforms problematic. It was to manufacture AND sell them.  
Quote
Is Amiga performance or compatibility more important?
Reducing a problem to one or two questions can sometimes be dangerous.
We should begin by defining compatibility type:
hardware or software (well, okay, here, there are only two questions)?
In general, compatibility and performance should not exclude each other, I would say they are complementary.
The problem lies rather be in their subordination.  

And yes, yesterday the 68k was condemned to disappear, mainly because of technological limitations. But is it still valid?
Today, FPGA technology seems promising because it appears to allow to overcome certain constraints.
What is interesting with the FPGA is the abstraction part. This should help to reduce dependence on this technology.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 07:36:48 PM by vxm »