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Offline IanP

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #104 from previous page: September 22, 2015, 12:02:18 PM »
Some thoughts on new keyboards. Molding new key caps is too expensive so we need an alternative. Off the shelf key caps are standardised for common PC keyboard layout. Both the A1200 and common PC keyboards use a standard pitch of 19mm (1 x 1 key). Keys vary in widths in increments of 0.25 x standard pitch. Most keys are 1 row high with exceptions like the Return and Enter keys common to both layouts. The side profile of keys varies according to which of the six rows they are in. There are usually four or five profiles for the single row keys with at least one row sharing a profile with its neighbour.

The differences between the common PC and Amiga 1200 layout are:

Top row function keys on PC keyboard are 1 x 1 size in three groups of four keys, F1 through F12. The A1200 uses 1 x 1.25 size function keys in two groups of five keys, F1 through F10. 1 x 1.25 size keys are unlikely to be available in a profile suitable for the top row. A possible solution is to use 1 x 1 keys in two groups of six. This give a total width of 6 units per group instead of 6.25. If the keys are centred in the slots at the standard pitch the extra gap at each end is only 0.125 of a key or 2.375mm. Now we have twelve function keys instead of ten but there is only room for one new key in the A1200 keyboard matrix (89 of the 96 keys are mapped in a 15 x 6 matrix and the seven modifiers are mapped directly 1 x 7). It should be possible to configure the matrix membrane for the new keys to trigger both a standard key and a modifier e.g. F11 triggers the left Amiga and F1 keys and F12 left Amiga and F2. Some diodes, resistors or simple logic gates may be needed.

The next A1200 row begins with a strange key, the`~ key, This key is 1 x 1.5 size on the A1200 but the corresponding PC key is only 1 x 1. Next on the A1200 are the numeral keys '1' through '9' and '0', followed by three symbolic keys and the Back Space key ends the main area group. All these A1200 keys a 1 x 1 giving a total width for the main area of 15.5 units. The PC has one less symbolic key in this row group but a 1 x 2 Back Space key giving a total width for the main area of 15 units. Unless this row matches the profile of the next row a 1 x 1.5 size key may not be available in the correct profile. The next group on this row for the A1200 are the Del and Help keys, these are also 1 x 1.5 size. The PC has three 1 x 1 size keys Insert, Home, Page Up. The final group belongs to the numeric keypad and this is not a problem. A possible solution is to start the A1200 row further in with a replacement 1 x 1 size key and to replace Del and Help keys with 1 x 1 keys and add a new 1 x 1 key (Ins? It could trigger both a modifier and the numeric keypad '0').

The next row begins with the TAB key on the A1200 it's 1 x 2 and on the PC it's 1 x 1.5. If the profile is the same as the previous row a PC Back Space size key could be used but if it's not and the change suggested above is implemented, for a consistent group width a PC TAB key can be used. The rest of the row is good.

The next row starts with the Ctrl key on the A1200 and Caps Lock on a PC. The PC Caps Lock is 1 x 1.75. The A1200 Caps Lock is 1 x 1 but includes an LED and has the 1 x 1.25 Ctrl key before it. If the row profile is the same as the next row a PC left Shift size key could be used if it's sized to allow an extra symbolic key next to it but if it's too big there is unlikely to be a matching PC key. If the changes suggested above have been implemented the A1200 Ctrl key could be moved to the bottom row and a choice of widths for the A1200 Caps Lock key should be possible either with an embedded LED or with one to the left of the key.

The next row starts with left Shift this is 1 x 1.75 on an A1200. A PC Caps Lock key may be the correct size if the rows have the same profiles. If the PC left Shift key cap is available in 1 x 1.25 it can be substituted to match the above changes. If however it is only available in 1 x 2.25 it's no good. Some PC keyboards are missing a symbolic key to the right of the left Shift corresponding to the blank/international key on the A1200. In a worst case scenario we may be forced to use an indented 1 x 1 key for left Shift. The rest of the row should be fine, the 1 x 2.75 right Shift key seems to be common.

The final row may have the Ctrl key moved on to it. PC Ctrl, Windows and Alt keys seem to be the same size as the remaining A1200 modifiers left Alt, left Amiga, right Amiga and right Alt, all are 1 x 1.25. The Space Bar will need to be shorter if the Ctrl key is moved to this row.

If the suggested changes to the left edge keys have been made the maximum width of the main key area will be 15 units instead of 15.5. If the keys are centred in the main keyboard area slot this will still leave a noticeable gap either side (of 0.25 * 19mm = 4.75mm). Possible solutions could be to add pieces to the case parts molds to produce filler strips in the in colours to match the keyboard to the case. The left strip may also include an LED or light pipe housing if no led is embedded in the Caps Lock key. If molding these fillers is not possible maybe suitable pieces can be laser cut or 3D printed.

Depending on what key switches/actuators/contacts are chosen a laser cut and/or 3D printed and/or milled laminated switch housing plate with spacers, membrane location points and screw holes to attach the rest of the metal work should be manufacturable at a reasonable price if you can find the right people. CBM/Mitsumi molded parts because it would save money on mass production to get the cost of the keyboard right down. For a smaller production with a higher budget per item molding parts shoudn't be needed.
 

Offline IanP

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #105 on: September 22, 2015, 12:13:10 PM »
When printing the keycaps it may be cheaper to put the text and symbols currently on the front of keys (numeric keypad) on the top face instead.
 

Offline candyman

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #106 on: September 22, 2015, 12:53:46 PM »
If we have to adapt a standard PC keyboard to the original A1200 case, then it would be better to re-design from scratch the whole thing (case + mechanical keyboard for example).

I don't think that for the Amigans out there would be easy to renounce to the traditional F10 keys keyboards for a common PC one.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 01:02:16 PM by candyman »
 

Offline IanP

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #107 on: September 22, 2015, 01:23:24 PM »
it's a little late in the campaign to think about redesigning the case to take an off the shelf PC keyboard layout. Also the mapping all the extra keys onto the existing matrix would be a bit of a nightmare.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 01:26:54 PM by IanP »
 

Offline candyman

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2015, 01:29:13 PM »
Sincerely, I think that the original yellowed A1200 keyboard would be better than a PC one forced in the Amiga case.

I also think that these problems could deter the undecided.

Do you think that re-painting (or clean) the original keys would be a lot more difficult?
 

Offline IanP

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2015, 01:45:01 PM »
My suggestion isn't to us a "PC" Keyboard it's to use standard (i.e. PC sizes) keycaps to make a new custom Amiga keyboard, where there is no corresponding size/profile keycap a compromise has to be sought otherwise there will be a bunch of MiST, Raspian and Amiga Reloaded case owners with no keyboard option other than second hand A1200 keyboards.

Cleaning and painting yellowed keyboards is not an ideal solution to go with a funky new colour case.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 01:47:26 PM by IanP »
 

Offline TheDaddy

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2015, 03:08:04 PM »
 

Offline candyman

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2015, 03:16:31 PM »
Loriano's keyboard is great: mechanical switches but the layout is the standard PC (F12).

Would be too expensive to create a custom Amiga (F10) keyboard with MX switches to replace the original one in the A1200 case?
 

Offline TheDaddy

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2015, 05:27:51 PM »
I'll speak to Phil...after all it makes sense as I've already done the majority of the work:

A very accurate replica of the symbols (size and positioning), a very accurate replica of the Amiga "A", font, Shift arrows, cursor arrows, Tab, Boing Ball, etc...already ported to over 12 languages and if we had permission the coloured Tick could make an appearance...

In the meantime keep pledging! :D
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 06:34:12 AM by TheDaddy »
 

Offline candyman

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2015, 09:21:28 PM »
Apart the font, the essential thing is the possibility to get all the custom Amiga sizes for the special keys (10 Function keys, Undo, Help...).

A brand new mechanical keyboard to match, would make the replica-case even more interesting.
 

Offline IanP

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2015, 12:33:20 AM »
Just saw this C64 Keycaps project. I wonder if the they would be willing and  able to do Mitsumi campatible Amiga keycap sets at a similar price level.
 

Offline IanP

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2015, 03:29:04 AM »
There seem to be a few issues with keycaps and keyboards. Firstly modern keycaps don't fit classic key switches. Secondly modern contoured keyboard keycaps aren't available in the required sizes with the required profiles. Thirdly readily available switches to build new keyboards don't fit the classic key caps.

So the only solution for classic keycaps is new molds. Hopefully a cost effective mold maker can be found. The ideal solutions for new keyboards would then require either manufacturing of new classic switches or more keycap molds to work with an off the shelf modern switch. Half of each new mold has already been done if the classic switch molds can be re-used, assuming it's possible to swap half a mold, only new inner surface half molds are required. Making the inner surface mold halves should be easier than the outer surface ones I should imagine. As they are purely functional they only have to be mechanically sound, they don't need a perfect smooth finish. As long as they mate with the switch and work they are OK.
 

Offline amenophis

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2015, 09:22:00 AM »
@IanP,

You've said it all mate, and you do have a clear view and understanding of what it takes for these new keys to be done. As well as the technical choices to be made.
We're working on that as you all know, and keyboard a bit later.

But one step after another, we still have the current campaign to make it reach the goal.
 

Offline IanP

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2015, 02:40:07 AM »
Hopefully today the campaign will overtake the previous one. Some very promising sounding things on recent facebook posts too.

While I'm here and before I forget, I had some more thoughts on key caps for classic keyboards. The yellowing issue is mainly confined to the white keys. If only the white keys need to be replaced this should reduce the number of molds required. One mold would need 4 1x1 keys (one for each profile) and a second mold would need a space bar (1x9), a 1x2 for keypad '0' and a 1x1 for keypad '.'. The "4 1x1 keys" mold would need to be used 17 times to get enough keys to complete all the white rows. 17 1x1 white keys per row would leave a few over on an A1200 keyboard, 4 on the top row, 2 on the next row and 1 on the next row. If the printing costs are not prohibitive these extra keys could be marked as replacements for the beige 1x1 keys on the numeric keypad EDIT and the 1 remaining key could have alternative characters for the international/"blank" key next to the return key for example the UK keyboard could really use a single quote/apostrophe and either (shift) backtick/acute or tilde key there., just realised the spare key is from the wrong row (I'd still like a UK apostrophe key though).

The partial key set would be compatible with A500, A1200 and external mitsumi Amiga keyboards. The A600 has a shorter space bar (1x8?) so that would need a stretch goal to open an A600 partial key set option. Other stretch goals would open up more keys like a function keys goal all the way up to full key sets goal.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 03:22:39 AM by IanP »
 

Offline dammy

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Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2015, 02:59:37 PM »
Quote from: amenophis;796307
@IanP,

You've said it all mate, and you do have a clear view and understanding of what it takes for these new keys to be done. As well as the technical choices to be made.
We're working on that as you all know, and keyboard a bit later.

But one step after another, we still have the current campaign to make it reach the goal.


To give a pricing reference point, C=USA's C64X keyboard cost them $98 @.
Dammy

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Project: New (colored) case for A1200
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2015, 03:20:14 PM »
Small injection molds are actually quite easy to make on your own.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
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A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
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A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
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CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
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A500/V500v2
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CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS