Am I really alone in wanting an Amiga AGA compatible?

[KimmoK]

@Nlandas
>I still like running actual hardware.

You could try to:
-find A1200+030+fastRAM+HDD for ok 68k experience.
-or get a minimig HW (or something more capable FPGA board for AGA)

> I'd be interested in running the latest AmigaOS if the hardware could be made for less. However, since it still runs over RISC chips the cost of a motherboard is too high for me to dedicate currently.

1) the cost is not because the RISC CPU
2) cost is because a complex design of motherboard + small target market to cover R&D cost

AOS4.1 compatible new computers start from EUR1000 or so.
MorphOS is similarly amigalike os, and it runs on affordable old PPC apple HW. (my MorphOS laptop cost EUR50)
AROS/icaros and AEROS are also worth a try. It runs on ARM, x86 etc...
(but not with every x86 HW setup)
 

>I the OS could be ported to AMD/Intel that would be amazing but the money is likely not there.

It is not possible to target all motherboards, so that is not easy solution either.
But it should be possible to do good support for some selected motherboard that are in production and available for longer than some typical 3...6 months.

(If custom board needs to be made, x86 is not cheaper, just more powerfull.)

etc. etc.

>Am I really alone in wanting a retro Amiga AGA compatible clone system that would be as close to 100% compatible with the A1200/A4000 series?

You are not.

I personally want more than AGA capability.
It is not sane, but it would be fun to follow (+donate) to a development of AAA+ chipset implemented via FPGA.

I would consider using/playing with such HW on a PCIe slot of a cheap PPC motherboard.


But I also have real classic Amigas that will not last forever.
To replace them one day, I would be interested in a solution where FPGA based CPU and FPGA based chipset are used via PCIe backplane/busboard.
(a little bit like shown in my avatar)

[Lurch]

FPGA Arcade is an interesting device and I've discussed it and read about it elsewhere. There are some really good features, along with 8MB chip RAM but it wont be a replacement for my A1200 060@80Mhz just yet.
Possibly with the 060 daughter board it may come close.
I've had my A1200 recapped so possibly it will last a little longer, one day it may die and FPGA or something similar would replace it.
So will keep watching for now :-)

[matthey]

I have only enough energy to reply to this because I know this discussion will endlessly go back and forth and I don't have this in me anymore. I am getting old, sorry. Let the new generation take over and have fun debating and replying back and forth until end of time..not me.

I didn't mean to give you a hard time although your information was suspect. I thought your "literally" sentence was funny and continued with it.

Now back to this, I am personally talking to one of the team of FPGA Arcade and he said they literally have it for sale and not in back order stock and they literally will ship it with tracking number.

It looks like it is for sale and shipping but that still doesn't guarantee someone buying one will have it shipped promptly. MikeJ said there are 128 boards. Subtract the 40 boards which were already "in the wild" and that gives about 80. Jim and Laurent have about 70 pre/back orders each so there is not enough for everyone with the last batch. Maybe Mike has more boards already but I wouldn't count on it. The pre-order customers have a good chance of getting a package soon. Hopefully, more will follow soon. Source:

http://www.fpgaarcade.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=471

P.S. Looks like the FPGA Arcade board price is 199Euro for the version without composite/SVHS output, 229Euro with.

[cunnpole]

I got my FPGA Arcade on Tuesday, but then I've been waiting in the queue since 15th May 2011...

[gertsy]

I got my FPGA Arcade on Tuesday, but then I've been waiting in the queue since 15th May 2011...

Wow. More patience than an emergency hospital.

But even with FPGA its nit gonna be a classic experience. No more than hidden virtualization. IMO. Get an A1200 if u want classic.

[mahen]

You may be interested in the MiST FPGA too (= Minimig with bigger FPGA, no physical 68000, and with more standard I/O like USB, USB power supply, db9, MIDI...). Its price is reasonable considering the number of units produced (200 eur.) and the 1.0 version of the Amiga AGA core was released a couple of days ago (I'm making a news item about it).

[gary2000]

It would be nice if they could come up with something like miniMIG AGA.  Could they not use at least the 030 and FPGA for custom chips?
My 4000 is dead and it is too expensive to replace. All of them had the same battery damage.

Yes, it would be nice.

[psxphill]

The FPGA Arcade only is about as fast as a high clocked 68030 and has no FPU or MMU. The unavailable expansion and a rare rev 6 68060 are required for "the fastest classic Amiga".

Yeah that is the real problem, once FPGAs can run a 100% compatible 68060 with FPU and MMU faster than anything Motorola ever made then I will probably buy one.

[utri007]

MIST runs about speed of 50mhz 030, it supports AGA and price is reasonable 199 Euros

http://somuch.guru/minimig/minimig-mist/

Web shop

http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96

[mechy]

Because you can buy it now if you want and this is the link where you can buy it:

http://amiga.amedia-computer.com/index.php/catalogue/infos/3/9/CONFVESAFPGA#.VYzk4kaIlZg

It is literally available for sale and they will literally ship it to you immediately. To answer your question what makes it special? Everything that the classic Amiga gives with it's expansion ports are already implemented in the FPGA Arcade therefore there is no need for expansion at all.

Such as the following:

1) USB
2) Network
3) Scandoubler
4) Sound blaster
5) CPU speed
6) RTG
7) RAM
Hard drive
9) Virtual disk
10) VGA port

For 499 euro I believe it is even cheaper than classic Amiga if you  intend to expand it like crazy and still the FPGA Arcade is faster than the fasted expanded classic Amiga. What else does it offer beside all the above I mentioned?

Check out the different platforms it also offer:

http://www.fpgaarcade.com/platforms/

Like matt pointed out, for that base price it doesn't beat a highly expanded amiga. its 030 with no fpu/mmu-The a4000 is a 040/25mhz with full mmu/fpu-well most models). so your are not making a fair comparison. I suspect by the time you expanded fpgaarcade  to specs you claim it would be quite a bit more.
facts is facts,and you can spin it any way you like. My 4k has been running since 1992 pretty much 24/7 only down for adding boards etc. It still has the original caps. I'd say i got quite good value from it.

Why bother with fpgaarcade and such anyway,a emulator on a cheap pc does the same( i prefer real hw!), its not like this stuff will give you the real amiga experience no matter how cool/neet/wow fpga arcade etc is.

That is the problem when your only criteria is cheap.. u get what you pay for. i know in 10 more years if i sold my a4000 i would get my money back or more, they hold their value if you take care of them and i look at it as a good investment. I have been fixing amigas since 87' and 90% of the problems on 4000's  i run into are user caused by plugging in something wrong,neglecting the psu fan until the machine overheats badly,or such. very few chip repairs other than battery damage or caps going bad..roms having bitrot etc.

[danbeaver]

...
Why bother with FPGA arcade and such anyway, a emulator on a cheap PC does the same (I prefer real hw!), its not like this stuff will give you the real Amiga Experience no matter how cool/neat/wow[woop.the.fücking.doo] [the] FPGA arcade etc is.
...

Exactly!

[matthey]

@danbeaver, mechy
You guys are being a bit harsh on the FPGA hardware. The old Amiga hardware has its nostalgia and advantages which means many will continue to enjoy using it but it will always have its limitations too.

classic Amiga hardware advantages/disadvantages
+ nostalgia of real, old and substantial hardware
+ serviceable and expandable
+ CPU compatibility, performance and features set the standard
+ relatively good HD performance is possible
+ relatively fast RTG and 3D are possible
- it is old and more is failing everyday
- I/O is mostly outdated
- OCS/ECS/AGA and chip memory are slow
- not enough AGA compatible hardware
- Zorro II/III and PCI are relatively slow
- cost is high for good hardware

FPGA Amiga hardware advantages/disadvantages
+ very flexible and upgradable because of FPGA
+ modern I/O
+ RTG (but no 3D yet)
+ fast AGA, chip memory (also expandable >2MB) and custom chips possible
+ fast memory
+ easily degradable for compatibility
+ production can increase to meet demand
+ small and energy efficient
+ standard power supplies and cases possible
- CPU, FPU, MMU performance and availability limited by FPGA cost (improving though)
- SATA and PCIe require a significantly more expensive FPGA (improving though)
- SD/microSD disk performance is unexceptional
- not enough memory for power users

The 1st generation FPGA hardware like the MiniMig was neat but not very useful for most Amiga users because they had better hardware. The 2nd generation FPGA hardware like the FPGA Arcade and Mist are good enough and useful enough to have sitting beside good old Amiga hardware and will upgrade many users with low spec and/or broken Amiga hardware. A 3rd gen FPGA Amiga hardware could be what the Natami tried to do before its time and could become the main Amiga computer for many. It would require more cooperation, investment and standards for it to happen. Nobody is going to throw the old Amiga hardware away though .

[psxphill]

Why bother with fpgaarcade and such anyway,a emulator on a cheap pc does the same( i prefer real hw!), its not like this stuff will give you the real amiga experience no matter how cool/neet/wow fpga arcade etc is.

The main difference is latency. An fpga ought to be able to achieve the same latency as real hardware. An emulator will always have at least one frame of latency for the display plus whatever the usb peripherals introduce.

[AmiDude]

MIST runs about speed of 50mhz 030, it supports AGA and price is reasonable 199 Euros

http://somuch.guru/minimig/minimig-mist/

Web shop

http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96

"All rights reserved. Copyrights © 2011 www.lotharek.pl"

The site is last updated in 2011... Are they still made? Why isn't Amigakit or Vesalia selling them?

[Lurch]

They can be bought from various places and there is even a new core available.

Here is one place, Amigastore are great. I've ordered a couple of items off them that Amigakit didn't have at the time.

Or just buy straight from the the man himself :-)

http://amigastore.eu/en/318-mist-fpga-computer.html

[mahen]

Of course, classic hardware and emulation are great. But they are quite a few reasons why an FPGA/Minimig/MiST may give a better experience than emulation (or at least, makes sense)

- latency : I never had a satisfying experience under emulation as far as input delay is concerned. When I play shmups I really need no latency at all otherwise the gameplay balance is ruined... Why bother playing a game when your skills are hindered by the emulation latency !

- no underlying OS : it makes a HUGE difference. You really have the feeling you are making use of the capacities of the original machine even if it's just hardware emulation. You cannot "cheat" and cannot be distracted. We all have the feeling we have trouble focusing on a single task with multitasking, high speed internet etc. Well, with an FPGA Amiga, you can't. And it's great IMHO Like reading a great booking instead of reading thousands of articles introductions and not remembering anything.

- rendering : although it's probably possible to have a great rendering under emulation with pixel shaders etc., it's difficult to have a perfect 50 Hz display, and a clear picture (neither blocky nor blurry). I'm sure there are some Windows and WinUAE specialists that will teach me wrong. But as far as I'm concerned, I was never satisfied, probably due to my GPU / screen / OS combination. With the MiST (provided the screen is supported) you get 50 Hz, and with subtle scanlines, for some reason, the picture looks less blocky and less blurry than what one usually gets under emulation.

As for the classic HW versus FPGA recreation, the comparison in a post below is relevant. I would just add : - very satisfying rendering with LCD screens when used with the optional scanlines (clearly better than a classic Amiga with a scandoubler on an LCD screen).

Of course... All those points are moot if compatibility is not high enough !!!