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Author Topic: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?  (Read 1991 times)

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Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« on: May 18, 2015, 12:46:59 AM »
What would the 16-bit sound in the A3000 have been like? It would have been added to the A1200 and A4000 as well.

The dsp add on was an AT&T DSP3210.

Would that be good sound or not very good?
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Offline NorthWay

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Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2015, 01:26:52 AM »
That depends how you look at it.

If the hypothetical DSP-A3000 (what was the model name for it again?) was released with a strictly functional(help me out here, that is not exactly what I mean to say) API on the 68K side with no access to the DSP "behind the scenes" then the upper limit would be whatever C= implemented. They could have added 24-bit functionality with a disclaimer that "it might be scaled down to 16 bits".

If the API had measures for uploading code as well then the DAC might or might not be set in stone. Again depending on what you would be allowed to do with the DSP-internal API.

As for sound quality that is always hard in an electrically noisy environment like a motherboard. One could envision other models with a pure digital out that you could convert to analog outside the box, but then you'd lose the chipset sound.

D/A converter quality will always affect the end result. That is no different to how it is today in both computers and hifi equipment.

If you want an approximation then I believe several Amiga models can connect the sound out of a CD-ROM to the motherboard and have the sound mixed out the phono plugs at the back. That should be a pretty good indication of what you could have expected.

As for the capabilities of the DSP chip itself I'm unsure, but I think it is probably stronger than the Motorola 56000(?). That should have room for today's advanced sound decompression, sample mixing, volume scaling, echo, delay, reverb etc, plus realtime sound generator. All that is enough to wish for some C= directors head on a stake. As has been seen on the Atari Falcon a dsp can also be used for other mathematical purposes.

As for how good it would have been: I imagine there would have been a lot of noise from "hardcore" game developers as you would probably need to keep the OS alive to make it function. They would have accepted after a while I bet...

A DSP is still a garbage in-garbage out device, but seeing what people have done with the limits of 4 8-bit channels then you can only wonder where we would have been.

All good. In My Opinion. But you might want to rephrase your question?
 

Offline Tenacious

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Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2015, 02:06:23 AM »
Quote from: NorthWay;789463
...A DSP is still a garbage in-garbage out device, but seeing what people have done with the limits of 4 8-bit channels then you can only wonder where we would have been...

So true.  This topic of what Amiga sound could have been seems to have cropped up many times.

With careful attention to recording (microphone selection, sampling rate, clipping, source quality, etc), the Amiga, as released with 8-bit sound, was capable of very impressive reproduction.  The samples available from cover disks, Aminet, etc, ranged in quality from really bad to quite good.  It seems to me that Amiga's native sound ability didn't get a fair shake over the years.  Several channels of true 16-bit would certainly have been technically better, but, the sound capabilities that shipped in all Amigas was still outstanding, especially when coupled with good sampling equipment and technique AND then played thru a capable amp and speakers.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 02:11:41 AM by Tenacious »
 

Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2015, 04:19:52 AM »
@ Tenacious
I was wondering whether I should really feel regret, maybe the DSP wasn't much compared to other 16-bit sound. As pointed out the rest of the sound device is important.

@ NorthWay
Thanks for that info.
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Offline danbeaver

Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2015, 05:58:21 AM »
Not to be contrary, but Commodore left us with all those Zorro slots, clockports, and expansion edge connectors to add something else into the machine that it didn't come with originally...
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2015, 06:10:42 AM »
Had something come "built in", there might have been more support for it from the community and it would have been more widely used by software.  Although I suspect there would have been pushback from the gamers and more of the "code for the lowest common denominator" that the Amiga community was so well known for.  Why write a program that requires great hardware, when they can code it to run "okay" on an A500 and sell 10x as many copies?  :rolleyes:

As for the hypothetical "how might it have sounded", try to get your hands on one of the C= soundcards and figure out how to get it working, might be good for a base comparison of what C= was going for back in the day?  ;)
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline KimmoK

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Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2015, 07:09:10 AM »
Stuff:
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=23

"Revision 0 of this system first booted successfully in February of 1991."

"the new management had kind of gone on the warpath against all current projects, trying to ensure that nothing we had been working on would see the light of day"

The rest is history!  :-(
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 07:16:10 AM by KimmoK »
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// The multicolor AmigaFUTURE IS NOW !! :crazy:
 

Offline yssing

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Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2015, 08:12:44 AM »
It is always extremely hard to say, what might have been, if X or Y had or had not happened.

The only what-if game I can think of in this case, would be to compare with the earliest DSP soundcards available on the amiga.

Some extra reading here: http://www.thule.no/haynie/research/dsp3210/docs/notes.pdf
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 08:25:15 AM by yssing »
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2015, 08:44:50 AM »
Quote from: KimmoK;789475
Stuff:
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=23

"Revision 0 of this system first booted successfully in February of 1991."

Wow, some good new notes in there.  The binder was funny.  Thanks!
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline NorthWay

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Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2015, 08:44:51 AM »
Never heard of that Fig Newton before. Seems like it is a snack also.
Does anyone know if it has a DSP?

As for the AA3000+ - was there ever any kind of API or something documented for the DSP?
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2015, 12:34:48 PM »
This DSP was used in the Quadra Macs. It may have been useable to create a soft-modem, as well as typical audio / encryption / graphics processing.

Here are some notes: http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/aminet/docs/misc/dsp3210info.txt

This would have been really nice in the A1200 :-(
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2015, 07:04:07 AM »
I also remember, was it Haynie? saying that they had at CBM already completed porting the VCOS operating system that worked on the  AT&T DSP3210.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: What kind of 16-bit sound we could have had?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2015, 10:49:33 AM »
With the proposed DSP, the Amiga would have CD quality audio (since th DSP would have had the bandwidth to drive a nice stereo 16but DAC), plus I assume the existing audio capabilities. It would have be very welcome.

The DSP chosen was very powerful and would have allowed some quite advanced audio processing for the time.

If you watch Dave Haynie speak, he also points out that the DSP was "general purpose", and could be used as essentially a super fast DSP for graphics/3D work too...