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Author Topic: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS  (Read 56089 times)

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Offline ppcamiga1

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #254 from previous page: February 16, 2015, 04:46:58 PM »
Quote from: matthey;784277
I recall a target of PS2 level performance and faster than a 68060.
I recall a target of PS3 level performance, gunnar von boehn later changed his promises to PS2 level performance. gunnar always promised that the cpu will be faster than g4.

gunnar where is my Natami ?
 

Offline kipper2k

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #255 on: February 16, 2015, 07:36:16 PM »
Quote from: ppcamiga1;784410
I recall a target of PS3 level performance, gunnar von boehn later changed his promises to PS2 level performance. gunnar always promised that the cpu will be faster than g4.

gunnar where is my Natami ?

you say that as though it is your god given right to have it, I can give you a link so you can find some literature so you can start your own research...

https://www.google.com

I think it is awesome that there is still even development for the Amiga so support them
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #256 on: February 16, 2015, 08:19:20 PM »
@kipper2k
he is probably already on a list of individuals not to be served, as well as on ignore list where possible.
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #257 on: February 16, 2015, 08:26:37 PM »
Quote from: kipper2k;784453
you say that as though it is your god given right to have it, I can give you a link so you can find some literature so you can start your own research...

https://www.google.com

I think it is awesome that there is still even development for the Amiga so support them

LOL.  Well played, @kipper2k.  And might I say, it's lovely having you on our forums here, now.  That's some great hardware you produce, don't let any of these naysayers drag you down!  :hammer:
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline matthey

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #258 on: February 16, 2015, 09:04:09 PM »
Quote from: kolla;784359
I agree, FPGA is cheap enough and fast enough for m68k AmigaOS. Matthey, I understand your concerns, and I'm sure your points will materialize themselves when/if no compilers supports the changes/improvements that Gunnar has done. In the meantime, I dont think anyone/anything prevents someone else, for example you, from doing a more "conservative" m68k core for the Vampire boards.

FPGAs are wonderful tools for core development but the 68k will never be more than retro (and a slim chance for embedded) as FPGA only. A more compatible core and ISA is needed for both retro and embedded instead of an unused "performance" ISA which Gunnar is targetting. The following Atari forum link with one of the Mist creators talks about the Phoenix core on Mist:

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=27442&sid=20370baaedca3a502b06a214d70aa186

Compatibility is the first concern, then license, and performance is nice but less important. I bet the concerns are the same for other 68k FPGA hardware creators. I expect embedded markets to be the same way. Existing embedded 68k and ColdFire customers may want something faster but they need compatibility with their current code base. Phoenix isn't going to win over ARM customers overnight but it could win existing 68k and ColdFire customers if it was compatible enough and liked enough (radical 68k changes won't fly with these 68k fans any more than the retro guys). We are also missing an oppurtunity to have one united 68k standard which could be used in Phoenix, TG68, Suska, UAE, and with so many people using one standard, more likely an eventual ASIC. Instead, we could end up with another incompatible Amiga split like the current ones which are killing Amiga.

Quote from: kolla;784359
But yeah, a m68k cherry pi would be awesome, I would guaranteed buy a few, especially if the m68k has MMU and can run Linux, I want real hardware for my Linux/m68k again ;)

While the 68k integer and FPU ISA need a little refreshing and modernization, the 68k MMU design needs major changes. It may not be practical to keep it compatible. It would be good to investigate ways to ease adding at least partial memory protection and/or memory isolation and extended memory into the AmigaOS while also allowing for possible future SMP (AmigaOS 3 using a custom CPU has a better chance to maintain compatibility than AmigaOS 4 using an off the shelf CPU). ThoR needs to be involved and design us a new MMU standard ;).

Quote from: kolla;784359
My suggestion is to ignore what Gunnar is doing and join forces with other more likeminded people and "do it right", the best solution will win, right?

Like with AmigaOS 4, MOS, AROS, AmigaOS 3, etc.? Is the best Amiga winning or is all of Amiga losing?

Quote from: OlafS3;784360
I am sure that you are honest with what you are writing and really mean it but for now Gunnar offers the best 68k solution ever available and a payable also. That is what we need, a major hardware upgrade including 68k (at least 68020 compatible) and better graphics and sounds. I do not know whom you know or not but I do not believe at people investing millions of dollars in the market, not before products are there and the need is obvious. When you can show a working system and proof your concept by sales then you can go to a investor, not the other way round. Investors are cold calculators, they look how big is risk, what have I to invest and what do I earn and they expect a business plan. So first step is a working FPGA based system that can already be used with software being adapted to. I think we should gunnar simply let do his job. I see (from videos) more and more software running at a very high speed (and there is no improved chipset/RTG yet) that counts for me (and most others) and not abstract discussions about ISA details.

I agree that new affordable 68k hardware is what the Amiga needs but we need to plan and work together to keep the 68k Amiga pipeline full, to put it in processor terms. It is important to have a product to show but it is also important to have a good plan to show investors. I am an investor and I know other investors. You might be surprised by what I could make happen but I'm sure not going to pull my money out of safer investments to invest in something I don't believe in and in people I can't trust. Neither will I try to convince other investors to do the same or try to find other partners to invest with. I see potential here but I do not see anything investable yet.

Quote from: ppcamiga1;784410
I recall a target of PS3 level performance, gunnar von boehn later changed his promises to PS2 level performance. gunnar always promised that the cpu will be faster than g4.

Any mention of PS3 performance must have been before I was involved with Natami which wasn't particularly early. The PS3 has a lot of potential performance but it it difficult to take advantage of. An enhanced 68k Amiga SoC ASIC with good 3D implementation added might not have as much theoretical performance but could be much easier to program perhaps making it seem surprising close to the performance of a PS3. I think a Cherry Pi could be made which could outperform the new Raspberry Pi 2 at a moderatly higher cost, with everyone working together and with proper funding (oddly never tried with the Natami despite tremendous interest).

I believe the current Phoenix core outperforms a PPC G4 clock for clock in integer performance and in memory performance. Enable the 2nd (and possibly 3rd) integer pipe, clock it up, up the caches, add branch prediction and add an FPU and it should be able to walk all over an equally clocked G4.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:08:51 PM by matthey »
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #259 on: February 16, 2015, 09:43:30 PM »
Even if a PS3 level performance was promised (I recall vaguely PS2 performance promises) it wouldn't have been with the Vampire 600 SoC, it would have been with the failed Natami board, which used a significantly larger FPGA and was to sell for hundreds of dollars/euros/pounds.
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #260 on: February 16, 2015, 11:40:52 PM »
Quote from: matthey;784478
I am an investor and I know other investors.


I wouldn't invest in anything that uses CDs/DVDs/BlueRays... these are sone ninetish... I don't know anybody that uses that obsolete media... terabyte sized HDs&network wins. Please no bulky and limited sized CDs/DVDs/BlueRays... I prefer to use a small Raspberry Pi as media center. If I was interested in CDs/DVDs/BlueRays I would connect it through USB. I don't plan to buy a blueray reader/burner ever anyway. I prefer hard disks. Even better, I prefer to quickly download stuff from everywhere I am rather than searching my entire collection (oh it was scratched by a friend, oh my friend didn't gave it back to me, oh where did I stored it... in my parent's house or in my gf's house).

Please, do not make a CD/DVD/BlueRay player. No one uses that in this millenium. Do you think that Raspberry would sell better with a DVD attached? Even if it costed the same? I don't want a DVD burner even if you gave it to me free and you paid shipping.

Some kind of raspberry pi like miggy could be more interesting? Give it USB and and a PCI-E bus male connector. You want expansion and various cards? you connect the board to a PCI-Express busboard (or pc) or feed it with power from it. Give it a GPIO pins, some USB ports and HDMI/audio out. Include a mini-SDXC connector to make it boot. You can buy an ethernet-usb card for around 6Euros. WiFi usb cards are cheap too (12€?). If you want stuff like SATA, Gigabit Ethernet, Advanced soundcards you could access PCIe bus. You could even draw the final gfx on the host's gfx card memory
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: Club de Usuarios de Amiga de Zaragoza (CUAZ)
 

Offline gertsy

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #261 on: February 17, 2015, 01:44:06 AM »
The Raspberry Pi 2 certainly has the guts if not the memory to be a useful emulator.
http://au.element14.com/raspberry-pi/raspberrypi-2-modb-1gb/sbc-raspberry-pi-2-model-b-1gb/dp/2461030?CMP=KNC-YAH-COM-RPI
 

Offline matthey

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #262 on: February 17, 2015, 04:36:00 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;784511
I wouldn't invest in anything that uses CDs/DVDs/BlueRays... these are sone ninetish... I don't know anybody that uses that obsolete media... terabyte sized HDs&network wins. Please no bulky and limited sized CDs/DVDs/BlueRays... I prefer to use a small Raspberry Pi as media center. If I was interested in CDs/DVDs/BlueRays I would connect it through USB. I don't plan to buy a blueray reader/burner ever anyway. I prefer hard disks. Even better, I prefer to quickly download stuff from everywhere I am rather than searching my entire collection (oh it was scratched by a friend, oh my friend didn't gave it back to me, oh where did I stored it... in my parent's house or in my gf's house).


It would make sense to sell units without a DVD/Blu-ray drive and even as a bare board to sell the most boards which lowers costs. I encourage downloadable software and software stores also. However, a DVD drive is cheap and probably should be part of a base Amiga standard. The media is cheaper than USB memory sticks where physical data is more convenient to distribute and/or where people prefer it. It makes a lot of sense for a retro emulation box where old game CDs could be inserted and played including CD32 games (see new CD32 games on EAB). It makes sense to be able to play DVD/Blu-ray movies which some people have. Some people would rather have a smaller but faster solid state hard drive rather than put several hundred GBs of games on their HD. How do you backup several hundred GBs of data on your HD? Eventually, maybe we would have an Amiga cloud for backup but everyone knows big brother has back doors to data stored on servers which some Amiga people won't like and it might not be possible to offer this service for free. A writable DVD would allow another option for backup of hard drives too large for memory sticks and they could burn their own old game CDs. I like freedom but it also means respecting the freedom of others including other users and developers. The situation can usually be better for everyone if we choose and use standards.

Quote from: Crumb;784511

Please, do not make a CD/DVD/BlueRay player. No one uses that in this millenium. Do you think that Raspberry would sell better with a DVD attached? Even if it costed the same? I don't want a DVD burner even if you gave it to me free and you paid shipping.


That is a tough question. If Raspberry Pi came equipped to play HD movies and had a DVD/Blu-Ray drive, it would sell many systems as a movie player. Raspberry Pi software could be sold in stores making it more mainstream and competitive with PCs. Raspberry Pi itself could be sold in stores if it came in a box helping to sell more units. It would probably cost 2x-5x more which would turn some people off though. Overall, it would be different like the difference between Raspberry Pi and Cherry Pi.

Quote from: Crumb;784511

Some kind of raspberry pi like miggy could be more interesting? Give it USB and and a PCI-E bus male connector. You want expansion and various cards? you connect the board to a PCI-Express busboard (or pc) or feed it with power from it. Give it a GPIO pins, some USB ports and HDMI/audio out. Include a mini-SDXC connector to make it boot. You can buy an ethernet-usb card for around 6Euros. WiFi usb cards are cheap too (12€?). If you want stuff like SATA, Gigabit Ethernet, Advanced soundcards you could access PCIe bus. You could even draw the final gfx on the host's gfx card memory


I would like to see more and more modern hardware expansion also but this has more potentential to increase costs and board sizes than adding a DVD/Blu-ray drive. We would have to do some cost/benefit analysis and maybe potential user opinion polls.

Quote from: gertsy;784537
The Raspberry Pi 2 certainly has the guts if not the memory to be a useful emulator.
http://au.element14.com/raspberry-pi/raspberrypi-2-modb-1gb/sbc-raspberry-pi-2-model-b-1gb/dp/2461030?CMP=KNC-YAH-COM-RPI


Yea, the Raspberry Pi 2 is a nice upgrade which makes it usable as a regular computer. Each core of the processor is stronger than before but still relatively weak in order Thumb2 ARM. The extra cores will help a lot for some tasks where SMP is possible like web browsing while providing good power efficiency. Emulation and many games are single threaded needing strong integer performance which it doesn't have compared to even a low end Atom. The Neon vector unit and GPU may give a big boost in some cases but these aren't so simple to optimize for. Don't be surprised when your iPhone outperforms it. However, the price is great for the performance, it's efficient and it's open. I may pick one up myself.
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #263 on: February 17, 2015, 05:15:22 PM »
@ above
Is it possible to build something like an Amiga on a chip? You could start with something small that would sell in great numbers, then you could move to an Amiga games console.
Go Go Gadget Signature!
 

Offline matthey

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #264 on: February 17, 2015, 08:12:36 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;784620
@ above
Is it possible to build something like an Amiga on a chip? You could start with something small that would sell in great numbers, then you could move to an Amiga games console.


Certainly. It's already mostly done with an FPGA 68k CPU and FPGA Amiga chipset together in a big fpga. There are even multiple resources to choose from (CPU: Phoenix, TG68, Suska; Chipset: MiniMig, SAGA). Some things should be added, improved and modernized though. 3D would be very nice and would have to be developed or bought. After everything is debugged, an ASIC can be burned.
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #265 on: February 17, 2015, 09:26:32 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;784620
sell in great numbers

You mean sell in "great numbers", right?  :lol:
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline kolla

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #266 on: February 18, 2015, 03:41:26 AM »
Matthey, you are essencially saying that the future of for a 68k FPGA core relies on Gunnar, I would say that this is to give him _way_ too much credit. I say this again - ignore Gunnar. You have repeatedly said the Apollo/Phoenix is his hobby project, so take your ideas to people who do give a damn, be it atari folks, minimig developers, UAE developers, whoever. Nobody wants a platform that relies on _one_ person.
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Offline ppcamiga1

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #267 on: February 18, 2015, 04:00:46 PM »
kipper2k crap that you made is worth nothing crap.

if you work with Gunnar, it's clear why gunnar still not sell NatAmi.

gunnar where is my natami?
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #268 on: February 18, 2015, 04:04:45 PM »
Quote from: kolla;784705
Matthey, you are essencially saying that the future of for a 68k FPGA core relies on Gunnar, I would say that this is to give him _way_ too much credit. I say this again - ignore Gunnar. You have repeatedly said the Apollo/Phoenix is his hobby project, so take your ideas to people who do give a damn, be it atari folks, minimig developers, UAE developers, whoever. Nobody wants a platform that relies on _one_ person.

Where is your FPGA Amiga?
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #269 on: February 18, 2015, 04:05:38 PM »
Quote from: ppcamiga1;784766
kipper2k crap that you made is worth nothing crap.

if you work with Gunnar, it's clear why gunnar still not sell NatAmi.

gunnar where is my natami?

please search for another playground. It gets boring

BTW what are you contributing?