Speed comparisons A500 etc.

[ElPolloDiabl]

Hi
In using just Workbench, what speed difference do you notice when:
a) Adding fast memory
b) a 14mhz 68000 plus fast memory
Also is there much difference between a 68020 and 68030 when just using Workbench and loading games.

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

Really this depends on the game.  Although I think you're going to get your "biggest bang for the buck" just by adding some fast memory.  Commodore was stupid to not include it in systems like the A1200 and CD32.  

Obviously adding a fast 68030 is going to make a big difference for games that use any sort of 3D, and with Workbench, if you plan on using 3.9, or any sort of high resolution, high color screen.

[matthey]

I think you're going to get your "biggest bang for the buck" just by adding some fast memory.

Or soon by adding a Phoenix accelerator.

http://www.apollo-core.com/bringup/aibb3.gif


Kipper2k's reaction when he upgraded the core in his Vampire 600:

i guess the core is available ?, i just downloaded core and getting a score of 66.36 mips.
FREAKING AWESOME!!
What a difference this core makes. All folders that contain up to about 60 sub folders appear almost instantly... all that is missing is AGA.

I would expect either the cheaper Vampire 500 or more powerful Phoenix accelerator for the 500, 1000, 2000 to be available this year. Oh, they have fast memory too .

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

Or soon by adding a Phoenix accelerator.

Nice numbers, definitely.    Isn't that still just a fast 68000 core, though?  I know I'm just being picky but I'll hold off until they include >68020 or 68040 or FPU/MMU-type instructions, etc.

But for someone with no accelerator at all - awesome.  

[matthey]

Nice numbers, definitely.    Isn't that still just a fast 68000 core, though?  I know I'm just being picky but I'll hold off until they include >68020 or 68040 or FPU/MMU-type instructions, etc.

But for someone with no accelerator at all - awesome.  

There isn't room in the tiny Vampire fpga for full 68020 support but many of the 68020 instructions are available. Missing are:

1) double memory indirect
2) some bit field instructions
3) (bd32,An,Xn*SF)

These can be trapped with software but it's going to take a while to get acceptable 68020 compatibility. The Phoenix accelerator with Cyclone V should have room for good 68020 support.

[paul1981]

Hi
In using just Workbench, what speed difference do you notice when:
a) Adding fast memory
b) a 14mhz 68000 plus fast memory
Also is there much difference between a 68020 and 68030 when just using Workbench and loading games.

Fast ram is a very small boost on a 7 MHz 68000 Amiga, but a very welcome one.

Regarding the 68020/030...this will mostly depend on clock speed. But any Amiga with a 68020 is a huge improvement in Workbench and loading times over a 68000 with fast ram. So for comfortable Workbench use, I have to recommend a 68020 or above.

[Tenacious]

Hi
In using just Workbench, what speed difference do you notice when:
a) Adding fast memory
b) a 14mhz 68000 plus fast memory
Also is there much difference between a 68020 and 68030 when just using Workbench and loading games.

A)  As Paul said, adding Fast ram to a stock A500 provides a modest speed boost, say 5%.  The big gain comes from running program code in FAST (CPU only address space) and preserving the CHIP memory that is shared between all of the custom processors.  You can run larger and more sophisticated programs with FAST ram added.  If you add enough, some of it can even be earmarked as a RAD: (a re-bootable electronic floppy!).

B)  There were several 14 Mhz 68000 16-bit accelerators made (like ICD's model) and even a home brew project.  I tried both. They were VERY disappointing in performance and compatibility (maybe another 10% when they worked, certainly NOT 2x the speed) due to inadequate buffering and timing collisions.  Don't waste your money on one of these!

The 16-bit alternatives were:
1) swapping in a 68010 for the 68000.  This was very compatible with all hardware and probably 99.5% of software.  Performance claims ranged from 5% to 10%.  The last time I did this, the cost was about $10.    This was the only accereration that would not destroy an A570!
2)  Supra's Turbo 28 was very compatible and well designed (plenty of buffering and no timing issues). IIRC, performance was over 3 times a stock A500 when coupled with some FAST ram (like Supra's 500RX).  This is better than a stock A1200.  Sadly, Supra never combined their units, so, you can end up with a number of modules hanging off the side of an A500.  I currently have one in an A2000.  It's wonderful.

I have less experience with full 32-bit accelerators (68020 and 68030) installed in A500s.  I would be concerned about compatibility of other peripherals from mixed manufacturers.   Even with these, the addition of some FAST ram (now must be 32-bits wide) greatly improves their performance.

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

Good point about the 68010 above.  I've run them in all my systems.  5-10% boost, as Tenacious said (which was noticeable in Dragon Strike, plus a few other games), and you can buy them all day long on ebay for under $10 shipped.  I've considered combining the overclock mod with the 68010, but after reading the instructions (and all the warnings about it messing with floppy timing, etc.), it just doesn't seem worth the effort.

Is the A570 really not compatible with any other accelerator?  That sucks.  

[wrath of khan]

Or soon by adding a Phoenix accelerator.

http://www.apollo-core.com/bringup/aibb3.gif


Kipper2k's reaction when he upgraded the core in his Vampire 600:


I would expect either the cheaper Vampire 500 or more powerful Phoenix accelerator for the 500, 1000, 2000 to be available this year. Oh, they have fast memory too .

I hope the apollo board happens. I'll surely have one for my 500. But it could be some time before it sees the light of day...

[Calimeiro]

Hi
In using just Workbench, what speed difference do you notice when:
a) Adding fast memory
b) a 14mhz 68000 plus fast memory
Also is there much difference between a 68020 and 68030 when just using Workbench and loading games.

No, if you are swapping floppy disks all the time, instead of runnig it from harddrive. :hammer:

Supra28 was great, got one myself, a Stormbringer H530 as well.

020 and 030 are very similar and have same speed at same clocks, 030 sports data cache and mmu. Instruction cache is same size as on 020.

There aren't many games for A500 that benefits from 030. But your daily "work" will, and once you felt "speeeed" you can't return to "normal".

[Tenacious]

...Is the A570 really not compatible with any other accelerator?  That sucks.  

Back when the A570 was part of my main system, I was desperate to make something work.  I also tried Mtec's 68030 acelerator.  Most of these combinations wouldn't even boot with the A570.  The ICD appeared to work intermittently for about a week.  Then, the A570 became permanently damaged by the timing issues and it had to be replaced.  This was expensive.

I was able to get the new A570 to work reliably with a SCSI-TV (HD interface), Supra 500RX (FAST ram), 68010, & KS 2.05.

[pyrre]

not to hijack the tread. but i am in a bit of the same situation. i have a beloved derringer 030 (50mhz) and i really love the speed and the 32mb ram it adds. however. i use the trumphcard sidecar expansion. with a outdated scsi controller and a dying hdd. and i have tried all my scsi drive. but the controller wont recognize them. in another tread im told the controller wont accept any disk larger than 300~ 500mb. my smallest drive is 1 gig. and the sidecar is annoyingly large.
Is there any ide controller made for the internal cpu slot that is compatible with accelerators?

As for the tread. the derringer performs really well in the 500+.
i dont remember the number in my head. but the graph in sysinfo is close to the performance of an a1200 with blizzard 1230.

Now my a500+ is picked appart in bits and pieces for upgrading and fixing the battery leakage on the main board. it is stopped. and i hope to add a battery of the newer coin style. (have some schematics to work with..)
And i want to hack the derringer to accept 128mb ram

But my main interest is to find a ide controller that can sit between the derringer and the cpu slot... anyone got any clues?

[biggun]

Is there any ide controller made for the internal cpu slot that is compatible with accelerators?

The Vampire 500 comes with IDE build in - and is probably the fastest accelerator for A500.

[vince_6]

On my A500+ there is not much difference with an aca500 unless you enable maprom so everything redraws faster and draging screens is smoother. Now adding a blizz030 on it it was same as an A1200 in raw power although it was running on 16bit machine without aga bandwidth. I also have a blizz040/ppc but the best choice for me is the 030 solution. More compatible for daily use than 040 and needs no libs/fixes.

040 on the other hand is faster but whdload meets probs and it is not worth the trouble for just running a few 3D games with 12-15fps than 7-8 on 030.

[Tenacious]

not to hijack the tread. but i am in a bit of the same situation. i have a beloved derringer 030 (50mhz) and i really love the speed and the 32mb ram it adds. however. i use the trumphcard sidecar expansion. with a outdated scsi controller and a dying hdd. and i have tried all my scsi drive. but the controller wont recognize them. in another tread im told the controller wont accept any disk larger than 300~ 500mb. my smallest drive is 1 gig. and the sidecar is annoyingly large.
Is there any ide controller made for the internal cpu slot that is compatible with accelerators?

As for the tread. the derringer performs really well in the 500+.
i dont remember the number in my head. but the graph in sysinfo is close to the performance of an a1200 with blizzard 1230.

Now my a500+ is picked appart in bits and pieces for upgrading and fixing the battery leakage on the main board. it is stopped. and i hope to add a battery of the newer coin style. (have some schematics to work with..)
And i want to hack the derringer to accept 128mb ram

But my main interest is to find a ide controller that can sit between the derringer and the cpu slot... anyone got any clues?

Some thoughts:

If your Derringer and Trumphcard play nice together, that may be the rare pearl to hang on to.  I've never worked with a Trumphcard, but, it sound like it needs an updated ROM to allow more modern sized HDs (at least up to 4 Gigs).  You could contact TJLazer on this site to see if he has an update for this interface.
Or, you could find a smaller SCSI HD.  300 MB sounds small by today's standards, but, for tightly coded Amiga software, it may be very livable depending on your purpose for the system.

ICD made an IDE interface that sandwiched under the 68000.  I've never tried it, but I'll bet its ROM is old, too..  There seems to be NO demand for their designs today.  That may speak volumes.