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Offline TeamBlackFox

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #194 from previous page: November 23, 2014, 05:16:06 AM »
Quote from: OlafS3
"bet on something" is for private people making bets on horse races, on  business you "do not bet" but make predictions and try to leave open  chances to turn direction if prediction fails. We all know of the bets  that were lost, from Commodore starting up to what we are discussing  now. So if changing direction it would make more sense to have something  portable like Aros so you can support both X86 and ARM and are on the  safe side.

Uhh the entire industry of computing is based on speculation - you can carry out years of market research in advance of a product release, but you seriously can't anticipate the impact of said product, or its reception. In the case of Android, which PRIMARILY runs on ARM devices, with x86 and MIPS making up the minority, it has been well-received. An Android desktop would likely be ARM based, as the hardware is cheap enough that it will still be powerful, but competitive. Intel/AMD x86 at the same price range as ARM either is too power-hungry or too anemic to even boot up. That being said, I'd trust the engineers of MS, Dell and AMD, all of which I have worked with in my past job as a data center tech, over a handful of users and developers in the middle of a forum known for sociopathic trolls, hell I had lunch with a manager for the largest AMD data centre in the DC area simply because he was called out to the MS data centre I worked at and invited me and the rest of the crew to lunch at a sushi bar and discussed what he wanted to see done to improve AMD-based Dell server reliability with us, over sushi and beer at that. He also talked to me about the Opteron-A series, and he said that it will, in his own words "Be the smartest move that HQ has made since launching the Opteron line"

You know as well as I do there are logistical and also other concerns with having to support two different architectures, diametrically opposed at that! Without a ports type system like FreeBSD uses, one or the other will simply have little software. Best to focus on one architecture for logistical reasons.

Quote from: Zylesea
Show me an ARM that competes well with an i7. AmigaOS is not some tablet  OS. If a switch away from where it is now is justified then with a  significant increase of computing power. Sure, an Atom is rather crappy,  but who speaks about that stuff? i5 or i7 is whats' in remotely normal  computers these days. And to that level ARM scales up rather poorely.

If you're going to make a brash statement, prepare something better than just an opinion: http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-k1-processor.html

This, my friend is a SoC which has the power of an Nvidia GPU and a quad-core ARM CPU. I can't find any benchmarks vs an i5 or i7, but most people I know are on the budgetary end of computers, either older gen i-series, older-gen AMDs, or the Pentium and Celeron series of CPUs. Your personal desktop is certainly *NOT* representative of what everyone else has. ARM has scaled up at a logarithmic rate that is even better than x86, I can't really explain it to you other than it simply doesn't waste any space on the die for any legacy-cruft that an x86 CPU does. Your desktop, my workstation and most other x86 devices start up in a 16-bit mode, and have to be initialised from there to protected and then long mode just to even boot a modern, 64-bit OS. ARM? It originally deployed with a 32-bit design and a 26-bit address space, but it can still run a 32-bit binary inside the 26-bit address space. x86 doesn't have this luxury, its address mode is locked to its execution mode.

Furthermore, I will use the same argument that Howard Roark made in Fountainhead, original text below:

Quote from: Howard Roark
"The famous flutings on the famous columns — what   are they there for? To hide the joints in wood — when columns were   made of wood, only these aren't, they're marble. The triglyphs, what   are they? Wood. Wooden beams, the way they had to be laid when people   began to build wooden shacks. Your Greeks took marble and they made   copies of their wooden structures out of it, because others had done   it that way. Then your masters of the Renaissance came along and made   copies in plaster of copies in marble of copies in wood. Now here we   are, making copies in steel and concrete of copies in plaster of   copies in marble of copies in wood. Why?

Similarly, what is real mode, AKA 16-bit mode, in a modern x86_64 CPU for? To start the BIOS, mostly - the original BIOS comes from the original IBM-PC designs, based on the 8088 and 8086. This was reimplemented by competitors to become PC-compatible. Then the 386 and 486 added a 32-bit protected mode, using an undocumented opcode in the original 8086 design to initialise it. They retained the 16-bit mode to keep DOS running, they simply used extenders like DOS4GW. With the extinction of Windows 9x with the atrocious Windows ME in late 1999, the 16-bit real mode was effectively rendered obsolete. But this was kept and copied into the 64-bit world, where now you had to escalate to long mode from protected mode from real mode. And this is all because the industry decided to use an architecture which is an extension of a 16-bit reimplementation of an 8-bit copy of a 4-bit processor. Why the hell keep all this cruft? DOS won't even run properly on a modern GPT sliced disk, let alone a system with no drivers!

ARM is significantly more towards my ideal of legacy-free than x86, and with the ARM64 releases, they're using a binary translation layer to execute the older 32-bit binaries in microcode on the 64-bit CPUs. In addition, Amiga would do better on a dedicated piece of hardware that is both cheap, and cost-effective, x86 isn't that answer. AmigaOS has a new place in the media-centric world - its low resource usage, efficient memory management and user-centric design would make it a perfect small computer OS, being used in either all-in-one computers or small set-top box computers, and ARM excels in those applications. None of the NG Amigas utilise anywhere near the full potential of workstation hardware, and as I hate to admit it, the days of a large howling workstation are numbered. As we speak I've my Nocona workstation for sale, simply because it is too loud and noisy to keep on, my Challenge S is quiet enough for low-end server applications, the Origin does well for high end, my Octane2 and Beaglebone have been doing very well as my main machines for most applications, and where I need a mobile solution, my trusty Nexus 7 does the job. I simply don't really need x86 except for a few things, which I am considering getting a small low-power computer to do the job of instead.
After many years in the Amiga community I have decided to leave the Amiga community permanently. If you have a question about SGI or Sun computers please PM me and I will return your contact as soon as I can.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #195 on: November 23, 2014, 09:50:39 AM »
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;778062
Uhh the entire industry of computing is based on speculation - you can carry out years of market research in advance of a product release, but you seriously can't anticipate the impact of said product, or its reception. In the case of Android, which PRIMARILY runs on ARM devices, with x86 and MIPS making up the minority, it has been well-received. An Android desktop would likely be ARM based, as the hardware is cheap enough that it will still be powerful, but competitive. Intel/AMD x86 at the same price range as ARM either is too power-hungry or too anemic to even boot up. That being said, I'd trust the engineers of MS, Dell and AMD, all of which I have worked with in my past job as a data center tech, over a handful of users and developers in the middle of a forum known for sociopathic trolls, hell I had lunch with a manager for the largest AMD data centre in the DC area simply because he was called out to the MS data centre I worked at and invited me and the rest of the crew to lunch at a sushi bar and discussed what he wanted to see done to improve AMD-based Dell server reliability with us, over sushi and beer at that. He also talked to me about the Opteron-A series, and he said that it will, in his own words "Be the smartest move that HQ has made since launching the Opteron line"

You know as well as I do there are logistical and also other concerns with having to support two different architectures, diametrically opposed at that! Without a ports type system like FreeBSD uses, one or the other will simply have little software. Best to focus on one architecture for logistical reasons.



If you're going to make a brash statement, prepare something better than just an opinion: http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-k1-processor.html

This, my friend is a SoC which has the power of an Nvidia GPU and a quad-core ARM CPU. I can't find any benchmarks vs an i5 or i7, but most people I know are on the budgetary end of computers, either older gen i-series, older-gen AMDs, or the Pentium and Celeron series of CPUs. Your personal desktop is certainly *NOT* representative of what everyone else has. ARM has scaled up at a logarithmic rate that is even better than x86, I can't really explain it to you other than it simply doesn't waste any space on the die for any legacy-cruft that an x86 CPU does. Your desktop, my workstation and most other x86 devices start up in a 16-bit mode, and have to be initialised from there to protected and then long mode just to even boot a modern, 64-bit OS. ARM? It originally deployed with a 32-bit design and a 26-bit address space, but it can still run a 32-bit binary inside the 26-bit address space. x86 doesn't have this luxury, its address mode is locked to its execution mode.

Furthermore, I will use the same argument that Howard Roark made in Fountainhead, original text below:



Similarly, what is real mode, AKA 16-bit mode, in a modern x86_64 CPU for? To start the BIOS, mostly - the original BIOS comes from the original IBM-PC designs, based on the 8088 and 8086. This was reimplemented by competitors to become PC-compatible. Then the 386 and 486 added a 32-bit protected mode, using an undocumented opcode in the original 8086 design to initialise it. They retained the 16-bit mode to keep DOS running, they simply used extenders like DOS4GW. With the extinction of Windows 9x with the atrocious Windows ME in late 1999, the 16-bit real mode was effectively rendered obsolete. But this was kept and copied into the 64-bit world, where now you had to escalate to long mode from protected mode from real mode. And this is all because the industry decided to use an architecture which is an extension of a 16-bit reimplementation of an 8-bit copy of a 4-bit processor. Why the hell keep all this cruft? DOS won't even run properly on a modern GPT sliced disk, let alone a system with no drivers!

ARM is significantly more towards my ideal of legacy-free than x86, and with the ARM64 releases, they're using a binary translation layer to execute the older 32-bit binaries in microcode on the 64-bit CPUs. In addition, Amiga would do better on a dedicated piece of hardware that is both cheap, and cost-effective, x86 isn't that answer. AmigaOS has a new place in the media-centric world - its low resource usage, efficient memory management and user-centric design would make it a perfect small computer OS, being used in either all-in-one computers or small set-top box computers, and ARM excels in those applications. None of the NG Amigas utilise anywhere near the full potential of workstation hardware, and as I hate to admit it, the days of a large howling workstation are numbered. As we speak I've my Nocona workstation for sale, simply because it is too loud and noisy to keep on, my Challenge S is quiet enough for low-end server applications, the Origin does well for high end, my Octane2 and Beaglebone have been doing very well as my main machines for most applications, and where I need a mobile solution, my trusty Nexus 7 does the job. I simply don't really need x86 except for a few things, which I am considering getting a small low-power computer to do the job of instead.


please keep certain phrases out of discussion

What I have a problem sometimes is that it seems all is either black or white. X86 is evil, your preferred hardware is good, Linux is evil, your preferred OS is good and so on. Always extreme. If you are in business you must be flexible, you do not unnecessary set everything on one bet, you always try to have plan B. As a big processor producer I might have to act this way (we see at Motorola what happens if the bet is lost), expecially as someone concentrating on software (including OS) you have the chance to leave another door open. Aros is showing that this possible with supporting different platforms at the same time. Of course you still need adapted components like UAE for the specific platform and you need everything to be recompiled when you change ISA. Apple was more wise than others in that sense, they are still there but a lot of other companies are not. Over the years I have so many trends seen coming and going that I could not count them anymore. The IT industries is always producing lots of new "bets" all the time, the intelligence is to survive despite of this. I do not know with whom you are having lunch and I could not care less but only because someone has a big salary and a nice title on his card it does not mean that he is right.

And as a application developer (what I do in normal life) I do not really care about hardware or lowlevel OS development. More important for me is how many potential customers are there, can I be sure that there will be development in coming years, how simple and productive development is and so on.

And BTW phoenixconsole is already working on supporting ARM as a new target for Aros (has f.e. just published a new version of his distribution for Raspberry). So if you are really interested you should support this.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 10:01:13 AM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline Andre.Siegel

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #196 on: November 23, 2014, 10:02:24 AM »
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;778062
If you're going to make a brash statement, prepare something better than just an opinion: http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-k1-processor.html

This, my friend is a SoC which has the power of an Nvidia GPU and a quad-core ARM CPU. I can't find any benchmarks vs an i5 or i7


Feel free to search for benchmarks using the keywords "Nexus 9" and "Surface Pro 3". Mind you, the Nexus 9 only uses a dual-core version of the K1. But then again, the Surface Pro 3 only includes a dual-core chip as well. (Ironically, while the K1 appears to beat Apple´s A8X in terms of single-core performance, Apple´s GPU beats Nvidia´s...)




Quote
In addition, Amiga would do better on a dedicated piece of hardware that is both cheap, and cost-effective, x86 isn't that answer. AmigaOS has a new place in the media-centric world - its low resource usage, efficient memory management and user-centric design would make it a perfect small computer OS, being used in either all-in-one computers or small set-top box computers


"Low resource usage" becomes completely meaningless if your hardware drivers support only a fraction of the hardware´s capabilities and are horribly slow compared to other supposedly "bloated" operating systems. In times when even cheap settop boxes like the Amazon Fire TV include 2GB of memory, "efficient memory management" is not much of a compelling feature either even if it meant gaining, say, 300MB of unused memory.
 

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #197 on: November 23, 2014, 10:54:13 AM »
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;778062
Uhh the entire industry of computing is based on speculation - you can carry out years of market research in advance of a product release, but you seriously can't anticipate the impact of said product, or its reception.
Which is why you need to make your software flexible. Which is why I highly recommend against using assembler these days. If the market moves, your product has to move, and better quickly, or it is history. Like Amiga. I wouldn't bother taking ARM if I would see that the consumer market is making a shift, and every developer has such a machine at home. But let's face it: The machines we have at home are x64 machines, not ARM machines. If I have an ARM, it's my smart phone or my tablet, but I don't get a development platform for them, these are shut-tight infrastructures I cannot potentially work on. They are shut tight because their vendors try to establish a vertical monopoly. An open infrastructure is needed, one that is readily available for everybody, for little money. And sorry to say, this currently means x64. If it means something else some day, ok - go for it.  
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;778062
Similarly, what is real mode, AKA 16-bit mode, in a modern x86_64 CPU for?  
Why do you bother? As a software engineer, you would be working in a higher level language like C. Or probably even higher like javascript. Why do you bother about implementation details of the hardware? In fact, all *your* code would be run in the orthogonal 64 bit mode, but even that is completely irrelevant. Even if the machine would store numbers to the base of 17 and would encrypt them with the day of the year in RAM it wouldn't make a difference at the level you are working on. It would run the application equally nice, from the same code.  
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;778062
ARM is significantly more towards my ideal of legacy-free than x86, and with the ARM64 releases, they're using a binary translation layer to execute the older 32-bit binaries in microcode on the 64-bit CPUs.
Keeping the PC legacy was what actually enabled the rise of the PC as we see it today as it allowed customers a grace period to upgrade their hardware. If only Amiga would have been so wise! Instead of creating a carefully modernized machine that allows to execute legacy software without a speed penalty by emulation, they keep breaking compatibility. As the average customer, would you rather decide yourself when to modernize your equipment, or do you want to throw away your PC and your software every two years because some geeky engineer comes up with a new nice idea?

In the end, hardware is completely irrelevant nowadays. What matters is the software that runs on it. Now, we're gradually phasing out x86 legacy as we leave the BIOS behind. It's about time, and it will probably take another ten years before the last idiocracy of x86 falls (stuff like the A20 gate, for example). But all this stuff is there because there was customer demand for it, for running software. These folks take their customers serious, unlike Amiga, and yes, it leads to engineering solutions that are non-ideal. But the success proved them right.
 

Offline biggun

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #198 on: November 23, 2014, 12:07:56 PM »
Why decide between ARM and X86 at all?

Why pick one?

Linux runs on everything, UAE runs on everything.
Why would one need to focus just on one chip - makes no sense to me.


Now if you compare x86 and ARM both have their very own advantages.

1) x86 has the stronger chips
2) x86 has the more advanced company behind the,
3) arm has a compelling selling model which makes arm chips attractive for mobile devices.

ARM is not in anyway cleaner or technically better than x86.
People complaining about 16bit modes  have lost the focus for what is important.
Don't get fooled by these silly points.

What is important for a today CPU is performance per cycle and the evolution of the cache technology.
Intel is certainly very advanced here .

Offline kolla

Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #199 on: November 23, 2014, 04:30:51 PM »
ARM can run bigendian, like m68k and like PowerPC, which simplifies things when you have an OS that is also supposed to run an integrated m68k emulator.
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Offline biggun

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #200 on: November 23, 2014, 05:29:00 PM »
Quote from: kolla;778084
ARM can run bigendian, like m68k and like PowerPC, which simplifies things when you have an OS that is also supposed to run an integrated m68k emulator.


And the x86 has similar instructions and similar address modes as the 68K.
This will also simplify things if you want to emulate 68k.

Offline warpdesign

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #201 on: November 23, 2014, 06:36:24 PM »
Tallking about going x86.
Quote
If you loose your bet AmigaOS or MorphOS go from one dead end in the next.
If, like Apple/Microsoft,... you think and write your OS to be portable (Darwin is portable, so are all MacOSX standard libs): no direct access to OS structures,... you can bet anything, and adapt quite easily ("quite" of course).
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #202 on: November 23, 2014, 06:43:36 PM »
when you have something portable you are not betting, only if you set everything on one platform without any chance to change direction (like Hyperion and MorphOS team did)
 

Offline Niding

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #203 on: November 23, 2014, 07:23:48 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;778090
when you have something portable you are not betting, only if you set everything on one platform without any chance to change direction (like Hyperion and MorphOS team did)

Not sure its so much "betting" per see by Hyperion/MorpOS. Not sure if they ever had/have any illusions to be a whole lot more than a niche product/OS.
If there are enough people that for various reasons stick around AOS/MorphOS, its probarly enough to keep small buisnisses alive. And I guess people like you just enjoy the challenge of dabbling with unique OS's regardless of how competative they are.

I find myself nodding when reading Thomas's posts. I dont see X86 platforms vanish any time soon. Then again, with the highlevel languages the hardware platforms doesnt seem to matter a whole lot. Or?
More and more of the people around me move slowly away from the huge stationary any selfrespecting nerd got, and moving towards laptop at most. And to increasing degree Pads take over (with some connectivity for keyboards).

I cant really see AOS changing away from their direction, tho Im pretty sure many of us would sign up for an x86 OS version since "everyone" got such a machine.
Considering the amount of money the loyal users/customers have sunk into their "NG" machines, I doubt AeonKIT or Hyperion would consider ...annoying their prime userbase.
You could maybe argue that you would tap into a much bigger customerbase if you moved AOS onto mainstream x86, but I assume it takes less effort and resources to stick with the current path.
Would be intresting to see if AmiKit could make a streamlined AOS4 installation to make a Emulation of "NG" for dummies. Might boost sales even more beyond the step by step deals you have to go thru now (at the mercy of Toni's intrest in developing+Rom file issue).

Very intresting and informative thread/discussion.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 07:34:22 PM by Niding »
 

Offline kolla

Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #204 on: November 23, 2014, 11:40:36 PM »
Endianess is important for handling data in memory, with a bigendian architecture native programs and programs running under emulation can all read and write the same data. Not so if emulation is bigendian and native is little-endian, then there is need for byte-order switching, and a can of worms is opened.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
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Offline matthey

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #205 on: November 24, 2014, 12:56:31 AM »
Quote from: kolla;778102
Endianess is important for handling data in memory, with a bigendian architecture native programs and programs running under emulation can all read and write the same data. Not so if emulation is bigendian and native is little-endian, then there is need for byte-order switching, and a can of worms is opened.


A cross platform (and endianess) program can access memory with either big endian or little endian but only a byte at a time without byte order swapping. Without hardware byte swapping, cross platform (and endianess) programs can run significantly slower than endian specific programs that work with 4 bytes at a time using a 32 bit CPU.

x86 is little endian while ARM is at least bi-endian but it has better support for little endian (default). PPC is bi-endian but has better support for big endian (default). The 68k is big endian. PPC is the best candidate for the Amiga, judging by endianess, then ARM.
 

Offline amigadaveTopic starter

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #206 on: November 24, 2014, 01:15:59 AM »
I thought this discussion was about the (impossibility) possibility of a single OS that could unify the Amiga community, not the pros and cons of which hardware to use for any OS?  What ever, carry on........ but some of these statements are seeming fairly useless to me.  I hope we are not creeping back toward any kind of discussion that start pointing fingers and claiming which choices are the RIGHT choices, and everything else is the wrong choice.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline matthey

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #207 on: November 24, 2014, 02:10:27 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;778107
I thought this discussion was about the (impossibility) possibility of a single OS that could unify the Amiga community, not the pros and cons of which hardware to use for any OS?  What ever, carry on........ but some of these statements are seeming fairly useless to me.  I hope we are not creeping back toward any kind of discussion that start pointing fingers and claiming which choices are the RIGHT choices, and everything else is the wrong choice.


The hardware choice plays a factor on how easy it is to move on. Moving to little endian hardware means updating old code which can be a big task depending on the software. Executables are even more difficult with an emulator and possibly some kind of sandbox necessary. The important AmigaOS structures become incompatible with little endian. Look at AROS x86 where the executables and AmigaOS are not compatible. There are still open endian issues with back porting from x86 to 68k. It's a pain to deal with cross endian issues. This leaves Amiga users behind dividing the Amiga community instead of unifying it. It makes a lot of sense to have 68k for the low end and PPC for high end Amigas. Programming for both wouldn't be too difficult if both were supported with similar shared APIs and software. The only way for this to happen is for one of the PPC platforms to share more software with the 68k (it's in their best interest as it furthers their API's and more software is written for both) or for AROS PPC to gain support and overtake AmigaOS 4 and MOS (it has the advantage of being free but it has catching up to do). My perspective may have changed more from a user to a programmer but it is what it is. I'm a 68k classic owner and programmer with no PPC hardware. I was never against PPC but the reason I didn't move to PPC is the attitude of some of the developers and companies. Some of the NG people have been snobbish, with completely closed software and development, yet expect me to pay up for more of the treatment? No thanks. The 68k Amiga is easier and more fun to use and program anyway.
 

Offline biggun

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #208 on: November 24, 2014, 07:19:25 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;778107
I thought this discussion was about the (impossibility) possibility of a single OS that could unify the Amiga community,


There are three groups of OS developers right now.
AROS, MOS, OS4.

If you say one OS would this imply that the three groups merge their effort?
Or would this imply that one takes over the lead and the other two would die out?

Offline biggun

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Re: One unified OS for the future?
« Reply #209 on: November 24, 2014, 07:24:33 AM »
Quote from: matthey;778106
A cross platform (and endianess) program can access memory with either big endian or little endian but only a byte at a time without byte order swapping. Without hardware byte swapping, cross platform (and endianess) programs can run significantly slower than endian specific programs that work with 4 bytes at a time using a 32 bit CPU.


Since ages (since the 486) the x86 support single instruction 32bit byte swapping to process Big Endian data.