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Offline TeamBlackFoxTopic starter

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OpenPOWER?
« on: October 10, 2014, 04:29:37 PM »
TYAN just launched an OpenPOWER reference platform, as per this article: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTgwNzg

While this platform geared toward GNU/Linux servers, the OpenPOWER standard may provide an upgrade path beyond the PA6T used in the X1000.

Who knows? A-EON and A-Cube systems may be able to consult with TYAN and get an open standard going, which is why I'm pro-RISC at the minute as x86 is covered by patents and often accompanied by glitchy firmware and its absolutely retarded addressing modes.
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Offline biggun

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Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2014, 05:36:09 PM »
Open Power as it - is a good idea.
Maybe they should have done this opening 15 years  - I assume then this could have made a big difference.
Whether it can change anything today?
I dont't know we will see.


Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774783
its absolutely retarded addressing modes.

This is bollocks.

x86 Address modes are great.
Very similar to 68k Address modes.

No RISC chip can compare to them of course.
And all the RISC chips have a serious drawback compared to 68K and 86x EA modes.
I know many POWER developers which  would kill for having the good x86 address modes. ;-)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 09:15:11 PM by biggun »
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2014, 06:57:20 PM »
It is nice to keep hoping. It would still be second fiddle waiting for Linux drivers to be ported.
It would be nice if you get it, but that platform progresses so slowly.
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Offline danbeaver

Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2014, 10:20:40 PM »
The OpenPower standards are just an update to similar recommendations going back at least 10 years.
 

Offline kolla

Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2014, 10:29:06 PM »
CHRP, PReP :)
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guest11527

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Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2014, 09:54:48 AM »
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774783
Who knows? A-EON and A-Cube systems may be able to consult with TYAN and get an open standard going, which is why I'm pro-RISC at the minute as x86 is covered by patents and often accompanied by glitchy firmware and its absolutely retarded addressing modes.

Actually, the addressing modes of x86 are pretty much those of the 68K. What *was* retarded is that you couldn't use each register for each purpose, and what *was* retarded was the segment-indirect addressing in one of the backwards compatible modes of the x86. However, all that is gone, nobody uses that crap anymore (except early bootstrap if there is still a BIOS), and the AMD64 modes (the 64 bit exensions) offers a sufficiently large register set and a sufficiently orthogonal mode set. AMD64 is really "how x86 should have been from the beginning", and it works quite well. Now, BIOS is overboard, so it's probably also time to remove the A20 gate (yuck!) and the "real" mode and all the other 8bit and 16 bit crap that is *then* no longer needed.
 

Offline TeamBlackFoxTopic starter

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Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 12:03:00 AM »
So you're telling me that 16-bit real mode still has a freaking use? It doesn't, just takes up space on the die. Protected mode is pretty much deprecated at this point as no major OS for x86 is 32-bit only, so that leaves long mode, which you can't, as far as my coding has gone, escalate to without passing through real and protected. Seems pretty dumb. 68k at least has the saving grace of being big-endian, and since 68k has no 64-bit extension... I'm a little bit confused as to why even bring 68k up on an article about POWER.

Also as I said, I'm against the patents on the AMD64/x64 architecture, as well as the wide use of proprietary and glitchy EFI/BIOS, as well as crap like SecureBoot ( which is also on Windows ARM rubbish )

OpenFirmware, which is used on most POWER devices, is open source, and with OpenFirmware, any bugs or limitations are publicly documented. Not saying it's perfect, as I don't like it's Forth-style syntax for command shell use, but it is a better alternative to proprietary UEFI.

The main reason I put this out was because, most POWER equipment that is new, is thousands of dollars higher than comparable x86 equipment, and A-EON or A-Cube partnering with TYAN for manufacturing a board based on the specification may serve to reduce production cost. The main issue for A-EON I can see is lack of a clear upgrade path from the 10-year old PA6T CPU, so unless they can pull a design out of their own arse, I don't see any better option than to partner with TYAN.
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Offline biggun

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Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2014, 10:43:27 AM »
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979

I'm a little bit confused as to why even bring 68k up on an article about POWER.


Both x86 and 68K share some address modes.
Both x86 and 68k were inspired in their design by the PDP.

x86 has these address modes:

($addr)
(reg)
(offset, reg)
(reg, index*scale)

These address modes are not silly or bad.
These address modes are very good and very usefull.

The 68K supports the same address modes.
The 68k supports some more modes too.

guest11527

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Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2014, 07:17:28 PM »
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979
So you're telling me that 16-bit real mode still has a freaking use?
Yes. The bios uses it. It has to, to be able to start DOS. (Yes, really, it's still backwards compatible).  
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979
 It doesn't, just takes up space on the die.
Not much.  
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979
 Protected mode is pretty much deprecated at this point as no major OS for x86 is 32-bit only,  
Huh? Windows 7 32-bit? Sure that all exists. For small devices, tablets etc, why do you need 64 bit addressing?  
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979
so that leaves long mode, which you can't, as far as my coding has gone, escalate to without passing through real and protected. Seems pretty dumb.
It depends on what you call "dumb". It allowed a migration to the state of today without breaking compatibility. And this "compatibility" is the key issue because it allowed people to re-use their hardware, at least for a while. It is an important issue if you want to keep your market intact. Hence, it might look pretty ugly from an engineering perspective, but from a market perspective it makes complete sense.  
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979
 68k at least has the saving grace of being big-endian, and since 68k has no 64-bit extension... I'm a little bit confused as to why even bring 68k up on an article about POWER.
Little endian, big endian... it's only a convention. Nothing to bother about. POWER is pretty much irrelevant in the desktop market though.  
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979
Also as I said, I'm against the patents on the AMD64/x64 architecture, as well as the wide use of proprietary and glitchy EFI/BIOS, as well as crap like SecureBoot ( which is also on Windows ARM rubbish
Bios is not really proprietary anymore, but its hardly a good basis anymore. UEFI is just another attempt of Microsoft to regain control over the market -quite obviously. They don't want to sponsor cheap tablets and allow people to install the Os of a competitor on it. Understandable from a market perspective, but I really wonder why no consumer organization protested against this obvious protectionsm of the market.    
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979
OpenFirmware, which is used on most POWER devices, is open source, and with OpenFirmware, any bugs or limitations are publicly documented. Not saying it's perfect, as I don't like it's Forth-style syntax for command shell use, but it is a better alternative to proprietary UEFI.
Not really. OpenFirmware is close to unsuable, and it's also mostly marketing nonsense - OF only works half as good as it should, if it works at all. I've here an old G3 Mac with "OpenFirmware", which is a complete piece of crap implementation. It is so buggy, it can only boot MacOs, or something that looks very close to MacOs. Tried over a year to make OF boot Linux without success, one bug after another, nobody tested this stuff, and I finally got it working by a "fake MacOs" OF was able to boot.  
Quote from: TeamBlackFox;774979
The main reason I put this out was because, most POWER equipment that is new, is thousands of dollars higher than comparable x86 equipment, and A-EON or A-Cube partnering with TYAN for manufacturing a board based on the specification may serve to reduce production cost. The main issue for A-EON I can see is lack of a clear upgrade path from the 10-year old PA6T CPU, so unless they can pull a design out of their own arse, I don't see any better option than to partner with TYAN.
POWER addresses supercomputing markets, not average desktop markets. The desktop branch (PPC) died years ago, the same death as 68K died before - lack of a proper market, and a customer base that was too small to make it sustainable. x86 dominates the desktop markets, only endangered by the ARM underdog which attacks it from the low-end. "Cheap, lean, low-power", hence, the dominant species in the mobile devices market - which is exactly the market M$ wants to gain access to (and - as it seems - hopefully fails to) and has invented UEFI to protect it.
 

Offline kolla

Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2014, 08:00:22 PM »
Hm, never had any trouble booting alternative OS kernels using OF, though I sometimes have used yaboot for convenience. I learnt OF on sun and was pleasently surprised when Apple chose that, remember messing around with a G3 iBook 15 years ago, figuring everything out :)
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Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2014, 02:44:47 PM »
IBM sells chip business

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/192430-ibm-dumps-chip-unit-pays-globalfoundries-1-5-billion-to-take-the-business-off-its-hands

That could mean a decline in PowerPC sales? Otherwise is that good news?
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guest11527

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Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 03:10:50 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;775365
That could mean a decline in PowerPC sales? Otherwise is that good news?

Actually, I don't think this will make any difference. What has been sold are the chip manufacturing facilities, not the knowledge on the chip design itself. What is possibly critical that this leaves only a hand full of vendors that can actually produce chips, hence prices for the actual hardware will probably rise.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: OpenPOWER?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 03:22:22 PM »
sigh.. another nail to the consumer grade ppc coffin, how many to go?